Couldn't you change that art?
Geo Realism: Discussion on a new SDK based map generator
- Thread starter primem0ver
- Start date
Couldn't you change that art?
Yes, but you can't have more of it than there already is which is a severe limit.
In what way would a feature that is one pixel above the ground differ from simply changing the terrain texture (which we can and of which we can have any number).
primem0ver
Emperor
You are right about this. I have already made the coastal rainforest terrain a "plains" tile but that doesn't really fit the coloring of a rainforest. However, I don't see a real problem with creating more terrains and most climate areas can be adequately represented given the new terrains we already have. Obviously there are several that were not included in the original and Thunderbird's offer makes me even more hopeful.
On that topic... you are also right about the limited number of wet terrains versus dry terrains. I can think of at least one or two more wet terrains we need for the D type Koppen climates already.
The biggest holdup I see is the plot type problem. I was hoping to make a plateau terrain (which would need a semi-flat with the base as high as the top of the hills). Plus, I was hoping to add new plot types to the ocean. I see one way around the above ground part:
Since I really am just using "hills" as mountains that are passable anyway, maybe we could change the plot types to the following (as well as their height maps):
- Level plains (same as current)
- Mountains: smaller and more of them. Obviously this can be done since the height maps have changed. Warlords and Vanilla's mountains had a different look to them. Instead of a single peak there were usually 2-3 per tile. If we could change this, making them look a smaller 3, 4, or even 5, this would be perfect. Even changing them to the original graphic would be something (normalizing the height map slightly). Mountains should be PASSABLE. Only the largest peaks were not accessible in ancient times.
- A plateau plot... basically a hills plot with modified sides to be higher up. Even if we just widened the hills a bit it might work.
- A deeper "ocean" plot.
This raises another question. Can a different set of plot types be used for the multi maps? Even if not, we could probably use the ones given above for the ocean...plateau = continent, plains = continental shelf, "ocean" = abyssal plain, and mountains = mid ocean ridge. If so, this would make things easier!
I am sure the problem with the above setup would be the plains to plateau transition in height...(unless we just widened the hill area a bit and made the hill more flat) so maybe this isn't realistic but one can dream and ask. I refer to AIAndy's expertise to give us some insight...
In the end, or for now we can still mark plots as plateaus in the Geolayout view (that is what it is for) even though they are as high as the plains. At the very least, however, I would still like to go back to the old mountains graphic. How did we turn the mountains into a volcano graphic? That seems to at least graphically clip off the top of the mountain... (even if the units were to float above it slightly). Couldn't we do that with the old mountains graphic? Turning only one of the peaks to the actual volcano?
Unfortunately not, it is one set of of 4 plot types for all together.
primem0ver
Emperor
All 9 new Info types have been integrated into the SDK with their "signatures" added to the global context. (Still have to add them to python... but that is low priority). The two schema files for the folders they will be in (TerrainInfos and GameInfos) have been updated to accommodate them as well.
Now all that's left is the actual XML file for each type (and subsequently adding them to the XML loader). I changed CvClimateInfo to CvBiomeInfo because apparently the climate info file already exists... and I don't want to mess with it since I assume it is used in the creation of maps. Keep in mind I am not removing the current map generator. It will still be used to create the basic map before I apply the GeoRealism engine.
The CvBiomeInfo.xml and the CvSeasonsInfo.xml file have already been started. I will post samples from each file as well as the file for feedback as they near completion.
Now all that's left is the actual XML file for each type (and subsequently adding them to the XML loader). I changed CvClimateInfo to CvBiomeInfo because apparently the climate info file already exists... and I don't want to mess with it since I assume it is used in the creation of maps. Keep in mind I am not removing the current map generator. It will still be used to create the basic map before I apply the GeoRealism engine.
The CvBiomeInfo.xml and the CvSeasonsInfo.xml file have already been started. I will post samples from each file as well as the file for feedback as they near completion.
Have you talked to Koshling yet about getting commit access, or are you going to have one of us look this over and commit it?
primem0ver
Emperor
I think I already have it. I asked him for it and I think he did it. However, I am developing this independently of C2C for now. As I told SO in a private message:
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
When you get mountaineering tech you can pass over mountains. Also some units have special promotions that allow them to go over mountains before that. Such as Mule and Llama units.
Taxman66
King
And those annoying Lightning Warriors.
On my maps (only for basic CivIV so far), I represent high plains like Tibet or the Altiplano as hills. That works well enough for me both in terms of in-game resource production and graphics.
Of course, it would be nice to have an additional, shiny new "plateau" plot type, but every new plot type requires a lot of work, and rewrites of old work. Given the limited use of a plateau plot type (Tibet and the Altiplano are the only places I can think of where it would really be useable on a large scale on an Earth map), that might be too much to ask in this case.
Generally, my design philosophy is that it's not the absolute elevation of terrain that matters, but the relative elevation, i.e. the prominence. On my Earth maps, I represent ultra-prominent peaks (with a prominence of more than 1.500 meters) as mountains. This includes places like the Alps or the Himalayas. Mountain ranges with no ultra-prominent peaks, like most of the Carpathians or most of the Urals, are represented as hills.
primem0ver
Emperor
Yes Laskaris. I pretty much agree. We have to make use of prominence with our limited terrains. I still think we should make the mountains a little less prominent and more plentiful within a single square. That would make the hills more plateau like.
If you want to give this a try, extract the Art/Terrain/Heightmap/Peaks folder from the first BtS pak. And you will also need to change the textures belonging to it.
primem0ver
Emperor
Only partly. Since we have enough terrain types for almost every environment, the stats for a particular soil type will still be valid. Height and humidity will not have any direct effect on stats. They will only affect which terrain (soil) type is used.
When I post the new info files and sample xml, it will make a lot more sense how it is all going to work. Believe me, the new info files make a lot of sense when considered together. They will make the GeoRealism map generator a WHOLE lot easier to implement. They provide a "shortcut" to turning stats such as mentioned above into vegetation types, soil (terrain) types, plot types, geography types, etc...
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
As i mentioned in the PM's, this is greatly needed, and i and the other modders, "once they see it" will also, so again thx.
primem0ver
Emperor
I am nearly finished the rough draft of the XML files dealing with the Climate part of the GeoRealism engine. I only have to redo 2 lost climates (accidentally overwrote a file I meant to merge) and add the "SpawnsBonuses" tags to the CIV4VegetationInfos.xml file. I will do some touching up over the weekend and probably post early next week. Here is the list of the 19 Koppen Climate Zones that I plan to use (up from 17) as well as their designations. In general, the list goes in a equator-ward to pole-ward order.
* The "Dry Continental" climate actually includes 3 Koppen climates, probably too close to distinguish. However their placement may necessitate me splitting this into 2 climates to make placement easier to define. Hopefully this list makes it easier to see why using more terrains is advantageous even if their is some overlap in the vegetation types. There are significantly more wet climate types than dry ones. (A,C, and D climate types for the most part are considered "wet")
- Tropical Rainforest (Af)
- Monsoon (Am)
- Savannah (Aw)
- Tropical Desert (BWh)
- Tropical Steppe (BSh)
- Cool Desert (BWk)
- Arid Steppe (BSk)
- Dry Mediterranean (Csa)
- Wet Mediterranean (Csb)
- Humid Subtropical (Cfa)
- Marine (Cfb)
- Sub-Arctic (Cfc)
- Humid Continental (Dfa)
- Cool Continental (Dfb)
- Dry Continental (Dw_ including a through c)*
- Hemiboreal (Dwd)
- Boreal Forest (Dfc)
- Tundra (ET)
- Polar (EF)
* The "Dry Continental" climate actually includes 3 Koppen climates, probably too close to distinguish. However their placement may necessitate me splitting this into 2 climates to make placement easier to define. Hopefully this list makes it easier to see why using more terrains is advantageous even if their is some overlap in the vegetation types. There are significantly more wet climate types than dry ones. (A,C, and D climate types for the most part are considered "wet")
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Also is a Zone still a zone if it has no terrain feature? Such as Tropical Rainforest without Jungle or Tropical Rainforest + Pine Trees? Is it then a Tropical Pine Forest?
Will it be generating on all map? Or will random terrain types be appearing all over maps that they were not made for.
Will it be generating on all map? Or will random terrain types be appearing all over maps that they were not made for.
primem0ver
Emperor
LOL... I think I am going to have to post samples of the files to answer the last two questions. I will give a brief explanation and then some spoilers. Keep in mind that I am not finished the draft of the files yet so some changes will probably occur. (I am already considering putting in a sixth "biome subdivision" qualifier for some zones such as Humid-subtropical and Humid Continental (see this post to understand why).
This explanation will answer both ls612 and Hydromancerx's questions
First, there is no single combination for any one biome. Biomes are composed of several similar "Vegetations" which are combinations of features and terrains (soils) that exist in the real world. Some "Vegetations" exist in multiple biomes so there is a somewhat continuous overlap between biomes. This will give the map a natural feel much like what exists in the current C2C maps.
In the real world, biomes also have "sub" biomes because of changing moisture that occurs as the landscape forces condensation (as elevation increases away from the shore) and moisture is removed from the air. Hence my subdivisions of "beach", "coast", "inland", "highland", and "rainshadow" (which is often a different climate altogether).
These "subdivisions" are assigned vegetations with odds that approximate the existence of these vegetations in the real world. There are no "holes" per se for a specific climate. If a plot does not get assigned a specific vegetation (not all odds add up to 100), it is assigned the "default" vegetation/terrain which does not have a feature.
It is possible for a plot to get missed by the climate simulator (although hopefully this chance will disappear as I perfect it). In such cases, the climate will be assigned a biome using latitude, side of continent, and distance from shore (or mountain range).
Now for the spoilers:
The "tropical" section from the "CIV4VegetationInfos" file:
The three tropical (type A) climates from the "CIV4BiomeInfos" file:
NOTE: An "iOdds" value of 0 is equivalent to 100 percent. In other words, all terrains in this "zone" will be a single type. The reason the "default terrain" is different is because of "reversion" timers. If a forest/jungle feature is cut down, the plot will revert to the default terrain when the timer expires.
This explanation will answer both ls612 and Hydromancerx's questions
First, there is no single combination for any one biome. Biomes are composed of several similar "Vegetations" which are combinations of features and terrains (soils) that exist in the real world. Some "Vegetations" exist in multiple biomes so there is a somewhat continuous overlap between biomes. This will give the map a natural feel much like what exists in the current C2C maps.
In the real world, biomes also have "sub" biomes because of changing moisture that occurs as the landscape forces condensation (as elevation increases away from the shore) and moisture is removed from the air. Hence my subdivisions of "beach", "coast", "inland", "highland", and "rainshadow" (which is often a different climate altogether).
These "subdivisions" are assigned vegetations with odds that approximate the existence of these vegetations in the real world. There are no "holes" per se for a specific climate. If a plot does not get assigned a specific vegetation (not all odds add up to 100), it is assigned the "default" vegetation/terrain which does not have a feature.
It is possible for a plot to get missed by the climate simulator (although hopefully this chance will disappear as I perfect it). In such cases, the climate will be assigned a biome using latitude, side of continent, and distance from shore (or mountain range).
Now for the spoilers:
The "tropical" section from the "CIV4VegetationInfos" file:
Spoiler :
The three tropical (type A) climates from the "CIV4BiomeInfos" file:
Spoiler :
NOTE: An "iOdds" value of 0 is equivalent to 100 percent. In other words, all terrains in this "zone" will be a single type. The reason the "default terrain" is different is because of "reversion" timers. If a forest/jungle feature is cut down, the plot will revert to the default terrain when the timer expires.
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