Geo Realism: Discussion on a new SDK based map generator

[strategyonly]

Just as a thought, would it be possible to build the GeoRealism engine in such a way that it works with different mods and different terrain sets? To program more of a general planet generating engine which can then be plugged into different terrain sets, similar to some of the map editors people have made? Or would the additional work be prohibitive?

I dont mind if it goes to other mods AFTER it gets implemented and WELL working in C2C first, i am NOT concerned what so ever on the other mods, at this time. I only want it to work in C2C (at this time, sorry), then later after things get tweaked, THEN, worry about all the changed needed for the AUTHOR to do IF he wants to make it for other mods, no offense to anyone on this, JMPO.

I personnaly want the Realism in C2C, but as you state gameplay is a valid reason also, which should be taken into effect also, but if you CANT them so be it, realism it is

 

[Laskaris]

I dont mind if it goes to other mods AFTER it gets implemented and WELL working in C2C first, i am NOT concerned what so ever on the other mods, at this time. I only want it to work in C2C (at this time, sorry), then later after things get tweaked, THEN, worry about all the changed needed for the AUTHOR to do IF he wants to make it for other mods, no offense to anyone on this, JMPO.

I personnaly want the Realism in C2C, but as you state gameplay is a valid reason also, which should be taken into effect also, but if you CANT them so be it, realism it is

The reason I am asking is, it is very difficult to reconcile the terrain palette of C2C as it stands right now with the direction primem0ver and I have in mind. It's a bit like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Hydromancerx has already expressed some misgivings about us messing with his terrains (specifically about my suggestion of throwing out some of the current terrains), and I respect that. I don't want to disrespect his work. Hence my suggestion of maybe doing it in a way that works with different terrain palettes.

Then again, maybe that's a bad idea. I don't know! It's just that I am caught between these impulses of wanting to try out sweeping changes while at the same time not wanting to annoy people who have been working on this long before me.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well, we have had this discussion before. I think what it all comes down to is that you and I on the one hand and Hydro on the other hand just have very different design philosophies when it comes to the terrains. Ours is pretty "scientific" and strives for as much realism as is doable, while Hydro's is more artificial and "game-like". Personally, I prefer the former, but it really comes down to a matter of personal taste - there are players who would prefer the latter, and that is alright!

Which is sad since I really do enjoy the science. Before I was ever a "game maker" I was a total biology nerd who loved all the stuff that goes into natural history. In fact i still do. But I guess along the way the artistic and gamer side of me has tried to merge the two worlds. You guys of course know a lot more about the scientific aspects than I.

I guess you can say I have become a "Jack of all Trades" but master of none. Taking skills and knowledge of science, history, art and gaming and trying to merge them into one. In short I know enough to appreciate your guys efforts to make things "realistic". I would very much like to get things as realistic as we can. However I also realize that not everything translates well into a game. Especially when things become stylized and simplified.

To give you some perspective some like Neil Degrasse Tyson has a pet peeve of media having the wrong night sky in their background because he is an astrophysicist. I feel the same way when seeing species of animals portrayed wrong (ex. Penguins at the North Pole) or prehistoric animals in the wrong time (ex.T-Rex and Stegosaurus living at the same time). I suspect you guys feel the same way about weather and climate in C2C.

Just know that I had to work with what we had graphics wise and stuff when making the current C2C. I am well aware of things like the Köppen climate classification since I researched it for my other project Sagan 4 and had to make simplistic biomes. Noe that neither C2C or Sagan 4 use systems as exact that that system since both were made to be used in games. However I feel they are a bit more toward the scientific than most game climate systems (especially fantasy themed games).

I am no climatologist but I don't want to be accused on not trying to make things a little more scientific even if I did not get things exactly right. I think I have done pretty well with working within the game imitated and my own non-expert knowledge of the subject.

 

[Laskaris]

@ Hydromancerx: As primem0ver already wrote, your system is much, much better than the vanilla system was, and that deserves praise. And yes, I think you did great with what you had to work with.

I also think you make a very good point about everyone having their pet peeves, depending on what their area of interest is. As for me, because I'm indeed a stickler about weather and climate, my pet peeve is players razing jungles or cold Siberian forests and then building a thriving agricultural industry on the soil. Things like that!

Anyway, let's wait for primem0ver to post his list, and then we can bounce ideas around that.

 

[strategyonly]

Anyway, let's wait for primem0ver to post his list, and then we can bounce ideas around that.

Now that sounds like a plan.

 

[primem0ver]

To give you some perspective some like Neil Degrasse Tyson has a pet peeve of media having the wrong night sky in their background because he is an astrophysicist. I feel the same way when seeing species of animals portrayed wrong (ex. Penguins at the North Pole) or prehistoric animals in the wrong time (ex.T-Rex and Stegosaurus living at the same time). I suspect you guys feel the same way about weather and climate in C2C.

The nice thing about the stuff I am adding is that it will allow us to fix this "random animal location" as well. Animal types can be handled in the same manner as the bonus spawning code that will be built into the simulation. Penguins will no longer appear at the equator if we make use of this advantage!

I personnaly want the Realism in C2C, but as you state gameplay is a valid reason also, which should be taken into effect also, but if you CANT them so be it, realism it is

One reason I am at a loss as to the problem over this is that as long as the xml is coded properly the changes will only affect gameplay in three ways

1. The game will use more memory (which goes with any additions we make). And there are far more memory intensive changes being planned than this one....
2. A few changes to terrains and features (which only really affects gameplay by the few stats that will change and the addition to some more variation in those stats).
3. Deforestation will NOT be profitable if done for farming.

To me, the only one of these that is negative is the first one and it should be relatively minor.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The nice thing about the stuff I am adding is that it will allow us to fix this "random animal location" as well. Animal types can be handled in the same manner as the bonus spawning code that will be built into the simulation. Penguins will no longer appear at the equator if we make use of this advantage!

Except that they do appear at the equator in real life - well near the tropics. Plus there is no way to stop a penguin from walking to the tropics. I could write some Python but it would slow the game down a lot as it would have to check every unit move to make sure they are not a penguin holidaying in the Bahamas.

Current animal spawns are done in two ways, from a bonus or from an environment. So animals which have a bonus type will spawn from them Deer will spawn from Deer resource (or a kangaroo resource in the Northern hemisphere).

For a full implementation we would need to fix/extend the resource placement to provide a more specific placement of some resources. the current system only allows for a latitude away from the equator with no distinction between north and south of the equator. This means when you define where the dear resource can go you are specifying two bands one north of the equator and one south.

Currently this is handled in the spawns as dear and kangaroo resources in the northern hemisphere will spawn deer and northern hemisphere antelope. In the South-west third of the map they spawn llamas and South American deer/antelope/bison. In Central South they spawn African antelope and Bison spawns water buffalo. In the South-East deer and kangaroo spawn kangaroo and wallabies with Bison spawning water buffalo.

Of course if the animal and plant resources spawn in biomes then we will be able to move the spawning to biomes also. This will not stop the movement problem, so you may still see a penguin exploring grass lands near the equator.

What I look forward to is having exotic biomes like Australia where marsupials rule, New Zealand where birds ruled and islands where the main form of vegetation is from the time of the first trees (New Caledonia?).

New terrains since I am the one who does the work the sooner you tell me what it is you want the sooner I can start working on it. Note that we can and do have more terrains available in C2C than we currently use.

 

[ls612]

If you really want me to break down the entire model I plan on using, I will do that. I will post a chart with the terrains, their statistics, and their rationale. (I should probably do this eventually anyway before modifying the terrains... that has not yet been done). But you will need to give me some time to create it. In the meantime just look at past posts in this and/or the Biomes files discussion. I have listed the ones I was thinking of off the top of my head at least twice.

We are planning a general breaking of saves sometime in V29 or V30 development, so I think that the new terrains could come then. Also, what graphics would you use for these new terrains?

Third thing is that if you add new terrains ALL mapscripts need to be updated to support them, otherwise people who don't want to use GeoRealism are sort of out of luck, which would be bad. Are you intending to do this as well?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Except that they do appear at the equator in real life - well near the tropics. Plus there is no way to stop a penguin from walking to the tropics. I could write some Python but it would slow the game down a lot as it would have to check every unit move to make sure they are not a penguin holidaying in the Bahamas.

It depends on your species of Penguin. Only the type of penguins that live at the equator (ex. Galapagos Penguin) should be seen there. So far all we have are Rockhopper Penguins and Emperor Penguins (the original should be renamed this). Both of which live no where near the equator.

If somehow it walked to the North Pole from South America it would be a very lucky penguin.

Note I can gladly convert more ZT2 Penguins for you. I have a bunch.

 

[primem0ver]

For a full implementation we would need to fix/extend the resource placement to provide a more specific placement of some resources. the current system only allows for a latitude away from the equator with no distinction between north and south of the equator. This means when you define where the dear resource can go you are specifying two bands one north of the equator and one south...

What I look forward to is having exotic biomes like Australia where marsupials rule, New Zealand where birds ruled and islands where the main form of vegetation is from the time of the first trees (New Caledonia?).

It may be important to mention here that North vs South do not matter as far as biomes and location of species are concerned. The same conditions that exist in the north can and do in the south (except for the differences caused by differences in land placement). The only reason that we have different branches of animals isolated on separate continents (such as marsupials in Australia) is because marsupials evolved there and when they did, Australia was already geographically isolated from the rest of the world. Currently I have no plans of implementing isolation like this beyond what has already been done (though I will have to re-do the implementation since resource placement will be done by the DLL now).

New terrains since I am the one who does the work the sooner you tell me what it is you want the sooner I can start working on it. Note that we can and do have more terrains available in C2C than we currently use.

I was planning on doing the changes to terrains. Some tags will also need to be added. If you want, I can send you the changes I have made to the vanilla files and you can implement them in C2C (when they are finished).

 

[primem0ver]

If somehow it walked to the North Pole from South America it would be a very lucky penguin.

Note I can gladly convert more ZT2 Penguins for you. I have a bunch.

LOL ! Agreed. And the engine won't do anything about those lucky (or not so lucky) penguins. It will however keep spawning to appropriate locations.

We are planning a general breaking of saves sometime in V29 or V30 development, so I think that the new terrains could come then. Also, what graphics would you use for these new terrains?

Third thing is that if you add new terrains ALL mapscripts need to be updated to support them, otherwise people who don't want to use GeoRealism are sort of out of luck, which would be bad. Are you intending to do this as well?

Well that depends on what everyone wants. Given the resistance I have had to adding new terrains I may make it so they are not added by scripts at all; they would only be available if the GeoRealism engine is used. But that depends on popular demand after I release the info. I will do what people want me to do (within reason). Just keep in mind I will need some time.

 

[ls612]

Well that depends on what everyone wants. Given the resistance I have had to adding new terrains I may make it so they are not added by scripts at all; they would only be available if the GeoRealism engine is used. But that depends on popular demand after I release the info. I will do what people want me to do (within reason). Just keep in mind I will need some time.

Well, IIRC I was the main voice opposing the new terrains back then because they would break saves. But if we are going to be breaking saves to do a lot of other things at the same time that won't be an issue, so I would not have any challenges to that.

 

[primem0ver]

Ok folks... here it is. You wanted it. I have produced. I am not going to post it as a chart here since it is rather large for me to do right now. We can discuss it and anyone who wants to follow along and participate should download a copy.

There is a word document and an excel document. EDIT: I have also posted a PDF version of the files in my next post. The word document explains the basic setup of the data to be used by the engine and summarizes likely changes to the game. The chart/excel document shows the stats and rationale behind the stats for each terrain type. It also lists all vegetation related features and their proposed stats. I have explained the changes I am proposing in the columns to the right.

Please note that the food yields for terrains are calculated based on the variables to the left of the calculation. The formula I used for calculating them is on the chart but I will list it here too:

Food Yield = VegVal + Mineral Content* − Aridity factor − Leech factor − freezing factor. ​

*Please note that the mineral content is also calculated based the amount of minerals, humus (organic nutrient content) and the humidity of the soil involved. Basically this is a measurement of how fertile the soil is.

Lastly to give you an overview on how many unique sets of statistics there are, I included 19 soil terrains and there are 13 different value sets. So only 6 of these have repeated values and most of those repeats are solid zeros (ice, tundra*, desert, and barren). *A note about tundra: I really couldn't think of anything to justify numbers here but this is one terrain where I believe I am forgetting something. Either way though it will be a repeat.

ONE ADDITIONAL FYI SIDE NOTE: All the soil terrains except volcanic are roughly listed in order of decreasing moisture. I say roughly because one or two sets might be switchable but they are roughly equal so it doesn't really matter.

 

[strategyonly]

Can someone pls translate these docs to a person like me that does NOT have excel, or any doc of the same, sorry, and hopefully thx.

See below thx primem0ver

 

[primem0ver]

Here you go SO. Sorry about that. PDF format for those of you who don't have MS Office.

EDIT: UGH... CutePDF didn't include the second worksheet. It is now updated so that it does.

 

[primem0ver]

OOPS... a few mistakes.

The rationale for temperate forest floor is the same as deciduous forest floor: kindling.
I also forgot the rationales for volcanic soil: rocks for work and minerals for cash.

The Deciduous forest stats are correct but something is wrong with the rationale for food. Got to look more into that. Also I noticed that "Boreal" is not in the right spot assuming that we are going in order of decreasing humidity. It should be just above plains (about the same).

 

[strategyonly]

Here you go SO. Sorry about that. PDF format for those of you who don't have MS Office.

EDIT: UGH... CutePDF didn't include the second worksheet. It is now updated so that it does.

WOW i didnt even have a PDF reader

Any ways you mentioned right away about the Teutonic Features, is this related to mapscipts or what?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Might I suggest:
* Forest and Jungle: add 1 food (Berries, nuts, small wildlife)
* Floodplain: add another food (Improves the gradient to 3 and seems reasonable. Without specifically making farms better on floodplain, this is the answer to Egypt's agricultural power.)
* Forest and Jungle: add 1 production to what they currently offer. I've always felt the Forest's wood supply has been a little underrated and Jungles certainly offer some wood supply too, as well as nature made ropes and twine. You could probably add another production to bamboo as well to account for the adjustment.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Might I suggest:
* Forest and Jungle: add 1 food (Berries, nuts, small wildlife)
* Floodplain: add another food (Improves the gradient to 3 and seems reasonable. Without specifically making farms better on floodplain, this is the answer to Egypt's agricultural power.)
* Forest and Jungle: add 1 production to what they currently offer. I've always felt the Forest's wood supply has been a little underrated and Jungles certainly offer some wood supply too, as well as nature made ropes and twine. You could probably add another production to bamboo as well to account for the adjustment.

I especially agree with the last now that we have the young forest feature and need to distinguish between both in some way.

 

[primem0ver]

Keep in mind that wooded areas will now work in tandem with one of the 3 "floor" terrains, depending on the type of forest and/or biome.

Might I suggest:
* Forest and Jungle: add 1 food (Berries, nuts, small wildlife)

The problem with this is that a good bit of food is lost in the occupation of space that would normally be used for gardening. So it is a tradeoff.

* Floodplain: add another food (Improves the gradient to 3 and seems reasonable. Without specifically making farms better on floodplain, this is the answer to Egypt's agricultural power.)

Hmmm... I can see your point here, particularly since desert locations are naturally very rich in non-biological nutrients and biological nutrients would be provided by the river. However, keep in mind that in normal plains areas, floodplains do get a boost too.... but the excess water will prevent from such a large boost. So perhaps a second floodplain type for deserts would be better (one without the health consequences).

* Forest and Jungle: add 1 production to what they currently offer. I've always felt the Forest's wood supply has been a little underrated and Jungles certainly offer some wood supply too, as well as nature made ropes and twine. You could probably add another production to bamboo as well to account for the adjustment.

I can see this as being true... however, keep in mind though that this would mean that non-jungle wooded areas would get a +3 boost to work due to the fact that the regular forest terrains (deciduous and temperate) get a +1 production from natural kindling (fuel for fire). Do forests contribute to city health? I think they should since fire is useful for such.

In reality I would like to add another forest floor type (for redwoods and woods on west coasts) but am hesitant to do so since the stats would basically be very similar to stats we already have and would mainly be for aesthetics. Currently I plan on using the temperate forest terrain for those.