Geo Realism: Discussion on a new SDK based map generator

[primem0ver]

Well in one of your proposals you had "Alpine" which is why I was assuming you wanted to separate elevation from polar. But I am fine in combining them into one. Where say Ice or Permafrost terrain can appear in high elevations as well as polar latitudes.

Yes I did. And it depends on when you are speaking what I meant. Most recently I was simply referring to the Alpine texture used in the terrain mod. I did away with the idea of an alpine soil almost at the beginning of the idea for this mod. If you look at the Vegetation file I posted a while back you will notice that the Alpine terrain does not appear at all.

Are you asking a question about where it says that these terrains appear at high elevations? If so... here you go:


A map of all major world glaciers (ICE biomes) as detected/discovered by different sources. Notice the ones in existence near the equator!

A map of tundra biomes around the world:

A map of permafrost in Tibet. There is also a China permafrost map.

An article on mountain tundra's in the rockies:
http://www.nps.gov/romo/naturescience/alpine_tundra_ecosystem.htm

For a moment lets assume Moor and Bog are the same. I was talking about mostly temperature. Where Swamp in in tropical zone, Marsh is in temperate zones and bog is in cold zones. What vegetation was not really important to them. Be it a Mangroves, Everglades, Fens, Bayou, Estuary, Delta, etc.

I am fine with a 3 category system. Infact it makes naming much easier if we do. And the current system uses that when making maps like PW2F where high elevation zones make Permafrost or Tundra near Peaks in tropical zones.

| Tropical | Temperate | Polar/Mountain Wetlands |Swamp|Marsh|Bog
Rainforest |Tropical Rainforest|Temperate Rainforest|Taiga
Woodland |Tropical Woodland|Temperate Woodland|Boreal
Scrubland |Tropical Scrub|Chaparral|Rocky
Grassland |Savanna|Grassland|Plains
Desert |Dunes|Desert|Tundra

And yet the soil terrain for all of these Wetland locations is still the same even if the biome is different (which it is... marshlands occur in many different biomes). Its fine if you want to think of categorizing things that way but be aware I am not going to purposefully adhere to any constraining/contrived system for inventing soil terrains. Like I said previously, I am trying to achieve a balance between the two extremes of my preference (having a soil terrain for every single different looking topography) and my understanding of other peoples preference (as few terrains as possible for reasons of practicality). For all I know the final number of soils will be a prime number.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok so we are in agreement that polar = mountain when it comes terrain types. Tundra is the same thing be in in the Arctic on on the side of the mountain. Cold is cold.

 

[rightfuture]

Here is a cool map that may inspire you.

This interactive travel map of the Roman Empire is like Oregon Trail meets Civilization
http://io9.com/5975032/this-interac...on-trail-meets-civilization-and-it-is-awesome

 

[Laskaris]

Yes I would like there to be the 6 groups of terrains; Wetlands, Rainforost, Woodlands, Scrublands, Grasslands and Deserts. Which in turn are separated into the 4 temperature zones, Tropical, Temperate, Polar and Mountain (aka high elevation).

I have noticed this before, that you seem very eager to have a terrain palette that fits a certain numerical formula, like "6 terrain groups times 4 terrains". I guess I can see a certain numerical-aesthetic appeal in it, but I don't think it is going to work out if we want to strive for any kind of realism. As primem0ver pointed out, nature doesn't obey such neat schematics.

My vote would be to simply try and come up with as many or as few terrains as we need, in as many or as few terrain groups as we need, in order to have a model of an Earth-like planet that is both realistic and playable - rather than insisting on a rigid "we have to have x terrain groups with y terrain types" scheme.

Just my two cents, no offense intended!

Even if we toss the rigid schematic, however, I suggest that we keep all of (or at least as many as possible) Hydromancerx's terrains, so that everyone can be happy with the new terrain palette. For instance, while I agree with primem0ver in that I don't see much of a difference between "dunes" and "(flat sand) desert", I have no objections against keeping them both in.

 

[Laskaris]

Redwoods? I am on the fence. Someone else decide.

I don't see the point in having a soil terrain for redwoods only - I don't think the differences are big enough to the other forest soils we already have.

Moreover, I don't understand why you lumped together redwood and Mediterranean in one comment. There are no redwoods in the Mediterranean, and the red soil in the Mediterranean has nothing to do with redwoods. Was it just because of the colour similarity?

Moor? Make it a feature.

I think this could be a feature, yes.

Scrub? Keep it (but possibly call it Chaparral... see "Arid").

I guess we could call it "chaparral", and mean it to represent a typical Mediterranean scrub landscape.

Arid? No good ideas except maybe "Dry shrubs." Could use some help here. Perhaps we can call "scrub" Chaparral and Arid scrub. Actually, I kind of like that idea.

I like the idea too. From the pictures you posted, this terrain looks like what I would describe as "semi-desert" or "dry scrub". We could mean to be a drier version of our "chaparral" terrain.

Polar Desert or Permafrost? I don't really care... I guess Permafrost by default.
Desert? I am on the fence here too. Right now I lean more toward making dunes and sand desert a single terrain.

Well, I am for calling it "polar desert". Permafrost exsists under cold boreal forests, tundra, glaciers, polar deserts... But only polar desert is polar desert!

Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by "polar desert", since I was the one who brought it up. A polar desert is a region so cold and dry that no vegetation exists (not even tundra), and so dry that no glaciers form. So it is different from "tundra" and from "ice" terrain. Basically, it is an extremely cold rock desert.

Here are some Youtube videos of the "dry valleys" of Antarctica, which are prime examples of polar desert:

The Dry Valleys of Antarctica

Visiting the McMurdo Dry Valleys

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Laskaris

I am also thinking about Terraforming pathing. For instance it would be great if you knew what terrain upgraded to what other terrain. Both systems I proposed (old and Sagan 4) had a clear path to upgrading terrains up to Lush terrains. In your guys systems I have no idea what terrain would "upgrade" into what.

 

[Laskaris]

@Laskaris

I am also thinking about Terraforming pathing. For instance it would be great if you knew what terrain upgraded to what other terrain. Both systems I proposed (old and Sagan 4) had a clear path to upgrading terrains up to Lush terrains. In your guys systems I have no idea what terrain would "upgrade" into what.

Yeah, I can understand that point.

I guess the question is, what does "terraforming" do, exactly? Change temperature? Increase precipitation? Change the molecular composition of the soil?

We could certainly try and put the terrain types we come up with into a scheme similar to the one you posted in one of your earlier comments, with temperature as one axis and precipitation as the other.

How about this? This is a very preliminary scheme, but it might be a good starting point for illustration:

| up to 250 mm | up to 500 mm | up to 1000 mm | up to 2000 mm | more than 2000 mm Extreme Arctic |Polar Desert|Ice
Sub-Artic |Polar Desert|Tundra|Boreal Forest|Seasonal Forest
Temperate |Desert (1)|Prairie (2)|Seasonal Forest|Evergreen Forest
Subtropical |Desert (1)|Scrub|Chaparral (3)|Evergreen Forest
Tropical |Desert (1)|Scrub|Grassland|Seasonal Forest (4)|Tropical Rainforest

(1) Whether a desert is a sand desert, a rock desert or salt flats depends on geological factors, not on the climate. In the above scheme, a desert could be a desert of any kind.

(2) Can also be Black Earth Grassland, in regions with very thick humus.

(3) Can also be Red Soil Grassland in regions with very iron-rich soil

(4) The seasonal forest of the tropical zone is what is commonly known as the monsoon forest, i.e. a seasonal forest that sheds its leaves during the drier season.

(5) Marshes can't be easily fitted unto the scheme either - they exist not because of high rainfall, but because of bad drainage in the ground. Areas with relatively low rainfall could turn into marshes as well.

 

[Laskaris]

Double post.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll chime in on Redwoods here. I've got a little work to do for this but DH was wanting me to help him with the Natural Wonders project he's found and importing it into the game. I don't know if Redwoods are a part of that BUT I believe they should be a global class resource. There are only 2 forests on Earth where they grow, and those two forests are actually composed of cousin trees rather than the same exact species.

Redwoods are all that remains of forests that would've been around for the Dinosaurs. They are a tree species we have the honor to watch as they go through the last phase of the extinction process.

So they'd make no different type of soil terrain than any other forest BUT would be a rare if not unique to any given map feature that would automatically also be a luxury wood resource.

 

[primem0ver]

Moreover, I don't understand why you lumped together redwood and Mediterranean in one comment. There are no redwoods in the Mediterranean, and the red soil in the Mediterranean has nothing to do with redwoods. Was it just because of the colour similarity?

Well... I wouldn't say that. The redwoods extend south along the coast into Mediterranean climate (to the south of Fort Bragg, Ca). Even if along the coast it isn't considered Mediterranean where this happens, I am fairly certain the red soil isn't all that different from the soil beneath the redwoods (minus the acidity from pine needles decomposing). So yes... in answer to your question, it was simply an issue of soil color. That is why I abandoned it originally. Since Hydro brought it up again and it could be used for all forested area in or near Mediterranean climates, I thought I would pose the question.

@Laskaris
I am also thinking about Terraforming pathing. For instance it would be great if you knew what terrain upgraded to what other terrain. Both systems I proposed (old and Sagan 4) had a clear path to upgrading terrains up to Lush terrains. In your guys systems I have no idea what terrain would "upgrade" into what.

The thing is that Terraforming technology is not the only technology that is necessary for upgrading plot terrains. Weather control (and the building of such a facility) is also necessary. So if one just has the terraforming technology, they could upgrade a plot in terms of soil quality but not necessarily moisture/microvegetation. So the pathing depends largely on what technology and national wonders are available.

To give a specific example:
Plains soil could be "upgraded" to Seasonal Grass (Red soil) and then to Black Soil grass. That would be a matter of nutrients. But green grass, lush, deciduous forest would not be available until a weather controller was built because those require a higher level of humidity.

In the same note, green grass would not be "upgradeable" to something more dry such as black soil until a weather controller is built because that requires a drier climate.

 

[primem0ver]

Ok so we are in agreement that polar = mountain when it comes terrain types. Tundra is the same thing be in in the Arctic on on the side of the mountain. Cold is cold.

I created this graphic in part to answer this question... it took me a while so I'm going to post it.

Here is a visual representation of the transition I explained earlier of the scenario where one starts at the bottom of a mountain range in a tropical rainforest and works their way up and then back down on the other side.

Notice that the wind comes in from the sea towards the mountain (range). Altitude does two things as the wind climbs the mountain (range):

1. It cools the air.
2. Since cooler air holds less water than warmer air, it causes the relative humidity of the air to rise as it cools.

The first part (air cooling) is due to the air expanding. Before the air is saturated, it cools at a rate of 1° Celsius every for every 100 meters the air rises. As the relative humidity rises it will eventually hit 100%. This is called the dew point (the temperature at which it hits 100% saturation). As the air cools beyond this point it does so at a slower rate (only half a degree for every 100 meters); and water is forced to condense because the air can no longer hold the excess. It is like squeezing a sponge. This is what causes the vast amounts of rain on the windward side of the mountain range. (The blue line shows how much rain occurs at the corresponding height of the mountain).

As the air cools further, eventually it reaches 0°C. This is the snow line. Any "condensation" above this actually forms ice clouds (that snow). Keep in mind that we are still on the windward side so the air still holds moisture that is coming out. As we hit the top of the mountain, the air suddenly switches direction. Now it is descending the mountain. Instead of getting cooler, the air now gets warmer because now the increased pressure is compressing the air rather than expanding it.

Now however, the air heats rapidly (1 degree per 100 meters we descend, twice the half a degree of the last little while) because we are back to below 100% humidity (remember that warmer air holds more water, so we have fallen below the dew point which was left up at the top of the mountain where we turned around to come back down). Essentially, we have squeezed all the water out of the air that we are going too. From here on out, the air actually gets more dry as it descends the mountain. We are on the "leeward" side of the mountain.

Here at the top, just after we start to descend is where we get our Tundra (dry polar) biome. Once we fall below the snow line (which is actually higher on this side... my mistake), we progress through our drier terrains, getting drier and drier: Chaparral, Scrub, and finally desert. This is what is known as a "rain shadow."

So Hydro
To answer your question... the Tundra biome will be found on the leeward side of the mountain, to the dry side of the glacier at the top while still above the snow line. Strictly speaking, there is no "Arctic" side. There is simply a wet side and a dry side. The glacier will simply be where the temperature fails to go below zero degrees year around. To the leeward side after that we will have our tundra.

 

[Faustmouse]

To give a specific example:
Plains soil could be "upgraded" to Seasonal Grass (Red soil) and then to Black Soil grass. That would be a matter of nutrients. But green grass, lush, deciduous forest would not be available until a weather controller was built because those require a higher level of humidity.

Is it really such a big problem to water a large terrain that you need weather control? In the UAE there is at least 150km long highway and the near countryside watered with pipes and it works well. So maybe not all terraforming should require the same techs.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that you could farm uhm... dunno, maybe black soil with a wooden plough but need an iron plough for red soil I think. I think it might be interesting if this would be represented in the game.

 

[strategyonly]

All i can say is WOW, this has been one of the LONGEST debates, i believe in CFC forums, and so lucrative, and suggestions/ideas/counter-proposal are so superb, i have ever witnessed. Thx guys/gals . . . SO Very eye-opening.

 

[primem0ver]

Is it really such a big problem to water a large terrain that you need weather control? In the UAE there is at least 150km long highway and the near countryside watered with pipes and it works well. So maybe not all terraforming should require the same techs.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that you could farm uhm... dunno, maybe black soil with a wooden plough but need an iron plough for red soil I think. I think it might be interesting if this would be represented in the game.

Supporting a town or a city with enough water to support a small forest's worth of trees is something that is done nowadays with minor difficulty. However, on a map that is 200 squares by 100 squares, each square is approximately 144,000 square miles. Supporting a forest that occupies that much space is going to take a LOT of water. There is no way to do that without some sort of mass water system or ... weather controller.

As for your suggestion on ploughs... I think that would be fun to implement as well. However, you got it backwards. The heavier plough is for the black soil.

@SO

LOL. Glad you are enjoying this conversation.

 

[Faustmouse]

Supporting a town or a city with enough water to support a small forest's worth of trees is something that is done nowadays with minor difficulty. However, on a map that is 200 squares by 100 squares, each square is approximately 144,000 square miles. Supporting a forest that occupies that much space is going to take a LOT of water. There is no way to do that without some sort of mass water system or ... weather controller.

As for your suggestion on ploughs... I think that would be fun to implement as well. However, you got it backwards. The heavier plough is for the black soil.

I think Fusion comes before Weather Controll, correct? With so much energy you should have enough water for such a project I think. And I think it would require MUCH less water to irrigate a desert that some bushes and seasonal grass could grow, for example. I am not saying that each terraforming should be available at earlier techs than weather Control, but some could do. Dry Peat Bog or plant forest are both much earlier in the techtree. Are those really "terraformings"? I am not sure actually.

 

[rightfuture]

All i can say is WOW, this has been one of the LONGEST debates, i believe in CFC forums, and so lucrative, and suggestions/ideas/counter-proposal are so superb, i have ever witnessed. Thx guys/gals . . . SO Very eye-opening.

Let's see what can be done to top that. Keep it going guys!

 

[Hydromancerx]

The thing is that Terraforming technology is not the only technology that is necessary for upgrading plot terrains. Weather control (and the building of such a facility) is also necessary. So if one just has the terraforming technology, they could upgrade a plot in terms of soil quality but not necessarily moisture/microvegetation. So the pathing depends largely on what technology and national wonders are available.

I am specifically talking about the Worker units that have the ability to "upgrade" a single plot of land. Right now it upgrades like this ...

Terraforming
Salt Flats -> Dunes -> Desert -> Scrub -> Rocky -> Barren -> Plains -> Grassland -> Lush

Ice -> Permafrost -> Tundra -> Barren -> Plains -> Grassland -> Lush

Marsh -> Muddy -> Lush

Where Lush is the optimal terrain.

Note that the global warming event works more or less backwards for this.

Global Warming
Ice -> Permafrost -> Tundra -> Muddy -> Lush -> Grasslands -> Plains -> Scrub -> Desert -> Dunes

Marsh -> Muddy -> Lush -> Grasslands -> Plains -> Scrub -> Desert -> Dunes

Barren -> Scrub -> Desert -> Dunes

Rocky -> Scrub -> Desert -> Dunes

Polar Coast -> Coast -> Tropical Coast -> Salt Flats

Polar Ocean -> Ocean -> Tropical Ocean -> Tropical Coast -> Salt Flats

Disappears At
Forest = Desert
Bamboo = Desert
Savanna = Desert
Jungle = Desert
Tall Grass = Desert
Swamp = Plains
Bog = Plains
Kelp = Salt Flats
Coral Reef = Salt Flats
Icebergs = Ocean or Coast

 

[Hydromancerx]

So Hydro
To answer your question... the Tundra biome will be found on the leeward side of the mountain, to the dry side of the glacier at the top while still above the snow line. Strictly speaking, there is no "Arctic" side. There is simply a wet side and a dry side. The glacier will simply be where the temperature fails to go below zero degrees year around. To the leeward side after that we will have our tundra.

So my chart was right. Desert (Dry) + Polar (Cold) = Tundra

 

[Laskaris]

I am specifically talking about the Worker units that have the ability to "upgrade" a single plot of land. Right now it upgrades like this ...

[...]

Using the table I posted above, which I think is fairly realistic:

| up to 250 mm | up to 500 mm | up to 1000 mm | up to 2000 mm | more than 2000 mm Extreme Arctic |Polar Desert|Ice
Sub-Artic |Polar Desert|Tundra|Boreal Forest|Seasonal Forest
Temperate |Desert|Prairie|Seasonal Forest|Evergreen Forest
Subtropical |Desert|Scrub|Chaparral|Evergreen Forest
Tropical |Desert|Scrub|Grassland|Seasonal Forest|Tropical Rainforest

My suggested paths for global warming would be:

Polar Desert -> Polar Desert (polar desert only exists in extreme arctic climates, and even if it warms up quite a bit, it is going to remain a rock desert due to the low precipitation)

Ice -> Tundra -> Prairie

Boreal Forest -> Seasonal Forest -> Evergreen Forest

Chaparral -> (Savanna) Grassland

Scrub -> Desert

I think bigger changes are unrealistic even after very significant global warming. Mind you, the above changes are pretty significant already!

If we go for realism, there should not just be global warming, but a "desertification" mechanism due to human influence, i.e. water use and agriculture during the modern eras. That one would lead to progressions along the horizontal axis of the table, like Seasonal Forest -> Prairie -> Desert.

As for what Worker units could do by "upgrading" a plot, that is more difficult to say. I think they could do pretty much anything depending on the technology we postulate - so the real question is what technology we postulate! primem0ver has already mentioned weather control, which one could use to make a plot substantially drier or wetter...

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Laskaris

Well lets imagine that its like Spore or Sim Earth. Where you can roast or freeze you planet in various ways. At some point in he game you will have god-like powers and could terraform however you wanted. Thus knowing a realistic approach to how it would chnage would be useful for that aspect of the game.