[GeoRealism] The two core BiomeInfo files

@Primem0ver:

I think that you should stick to adding the following two terrains. All of the others either already exist or don't really fit (see below).

  • Mediterranian
  • Temperate Steppe

I get your and Laskaris' points about tropical rainforests, but that is not really how the civ game works with regards to forests, jungles, and their base terrain. I don't think such a radical change for such small gameplay benefit is really worth it.

If we were to add just Mediterranian and Temperate Steppe, we would have a grand total of 18 (!) base terrains, that combined with the wealth of features we have should be more than enough to model almost any climate system to a close enough point in C2C.
 
@Primem0ver:I get your and Laskaris' points about tropical rainforests, but that is not really how the civ game works with regards to forests, jungles, and their base terrain. I don't think such a radical change for such small gameplay benefit is really worth it.

I guess that is a question of personal gaming philosophy: do you want a pure digital boardgame (which is a great concept, and what Civilization was originally set out to be), or do you want a game that strives for a higher level of realism and contains some simulation elements as well?

Personally, I am not one of those "ultra realism" fetishists who completely ignores matters of gameplay. But I do like a good level of realism, and I tend to believe that, more often than not, realism in historical strategy games enhances gameplay rather than diminishing it (Thunderbrd has brought up that exact same point already).

It bothers me to no end when civilizations in the game just raze the tropical jungles and then build thriving, agriculturally productive empires on the "grasslands" that used to be underneath the jungle. This is just not how it works in the real world. It's one of the things where Civilization being a digital boardgame really shows, and it breaks the immersion for me. Like I said, this comes down to a question of personal gaming philosophy, and I am a bit of a roleplayer and a fan of plausible alternate history.

If the different climate zones of an Earth-like planet, their effects on agriculture etc. would be modelled more realistically, the resulting alternate histories would also look more like Earth: instead of having civilizations spread out fairly evenly across large portions of the map, you would have more distinct population centers, "bread basket" regions that are very agriculturally productive, and hinterlands that are thinly populated (but maybe contain plenty of gold, oil, coal etc., like Siberia). I for one think it would be a very interesting game.

If we were to add just Mediterranian and Temperate Steppe, we would have a grand total of 18 (!) base terrains, that combined with the wealth of features we have should be more than enough to model almost any climate system to a close enough point in C2C.

The sheer number of terrains is not the decisive factor, it's the kind of terrains that are available. C2C currently has an over-abundance of desert terrains, "barren", "rocky", "scrub", "desert", "dunes" and "salt flats". It has three sea terrains, three very cold terrains ("tundra", "permafrost", "ice"), and two different swamp terrains ("muddy" and "marsh"). On the other hand, humid (or semi-arid) tropical, subtropical and temperate regions are severely under-represented with only three terrains, "plains", "grasslands" and "lush", despite the fact that they have a big variety of climate types in the real world. All in all, the terrain palette really isn't well-suited for making detailed, Earth-like worlds. It seems more well-suited to making desert planets, frankly.

If I had complete freedom, I would throw out half of the desert terrains, one of the swamp terrains, and add a bunch of terrains that are well-suited for humid and semi-arid regions from the tropics to the temperate zones. All in all, it probably would not be a bigger number of terrains than what you currently have, but it would be more well-suited for making Earth-like planets with their full variety of climate zones.

At the same time, I understand that there is a whole bunch of stuff tied to the current terrains, culture wonders and so forth. Which is why there is such a high degree of resistance against major changes to the terrain palette. I can appreciate that, and it's why what primem0ver is aiming to do may not be compatible with C2C, at the end of the day. :sad:
 
@Laskaris:

I understand that complaint. However, C2C accomplishes the diversity of 'wet' terrains with features and resources, on top of a couple base terrains. There are far fewer resources and features that spawn on Desert or Cold terrains, so IMO it balances out in the end. That and we've had these terrains for a year now and balanced around them. The two additions I listed above would be great, but the rest should either be relegated to the base BtS modcomp or done away with. It doesn't mean that we won't see this in C2C, it just means that it will be implemented differently in C2C.
 
At the same time, I understand that there is a whole bunch of stuff tied to the current terrains, culture wonders and so forth. Which is why there is such a high degree of resistance against major changes to the terrain palette. I can appreciate that, and it's why what primem0ver is aiming to do may not be compatible with C2C, at the end of the day. :sad:
I don't understand it. Tbh I am even annoyed. C2C has always been about more is more but now whenever someone wants to add something there is such an amount of resistance to the point of driving people away.

It is inevitable that such a big change of the foundations of map making and plot information will tie into several other systems and require changes there. Some terrains more won't matter in that regard and there are indeed very few non hostile terrains.
 
I love all our desserts and would like to see them stay. But I ALSO think we need more terrains for all the noted reasons.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows I also agree with AIAndy on this:
I don't understand it. Tbh I am even annoyed. C2C has always been about more is more but now whenever someone wants to add something there is such an amount of resistance to the point of driving people away.
 
In grasslands, almost the entire vegetation dies during the course of the season, producing humus that accumulates over the years and creates deep, highly fertile soils. Such soils exist in places like the American Great Plains, the Argentinian Pampas, and the "black Earth belt" that stretches across the Ukraine and into central Asia. These are some incredibly productive agriculture regions.

With such soil types and their usefulness modelled in the terrains, agricultural production and everything that depens on it - population density etc. - would be a lot more realistic. And, in my view, it would make for a very interesting game.

This is exactly why I suggested we use the stats that Hydromancerx(?) has assigned to lush soils to a different environment other than tropical. Unfortunately the stats for the "lush" terrain make very little sense given its placement. However, a "lush environment" (with a different look of course) would make a whole lot of sense in semi-humid grassland plains areas.

However.. the "lush" terrain he uses would make a LOT of sense on tropical islands with volcanic soil. Volcanic soil is usually extremely rich in minerals.
 
I am going to say this as delicately as possible as to not offend anyone. I really think that terrain based buildings are fine in theory. Some probably need to be that way. But I think the number of terrain based buildings should be severely limited. I find the number of buildings I have to choose from in the build list endlessly horrific. Finding the building I want is a nightmare. Honestly, I think this mod has too much in the way of some types of choices. I find it distracting from the fun I usually have playing this game and I think the sheer number of choices probably bogs down the AI. But that is just my opinion. I play the game because I love maps and to explore the terrain... exploring a new world is what gives me over half my fun in this game (and its rather annoying that it takes so much time now).

The bottom line is that we all play this game for different reasons so we aren't always going to agree. I strongly believe that we shouldn't have so many choices (and hence, terrain based buildings). But that is just my opinion. What we need is options!

Keep in mind that the GeoRealism mod is a map option! The extra terrains could be an option as well, placed only by the simulator. I haven't really looked for the xml source for how the original engine knows which terrains to place where (humid versus dry, cold versus warm, etc...) but if we leave the new terrains out of this selection, they won't be placed on maps until the GeoRealism mod takes over.

ls612 said:
@Primem0ver:I get your and Laskaris' points about tropical rainforests, but that is not really how the civ game works with regards to forests, jungles, and their base terrain. I don't think such a radical change for such small gameplay benefit is really worth it.

I think this comment is a bit...short sighted. Sorry to be so blunt. The changes to jungle terrains alone make a huge difference in how jungles will be used (a HUGE gameplay effect). I know it will for me in a major way. I usually go chop down as much jungle as I can, if for no other reason than to get rid of the negative health effect. Now, turning all that jungle into useless mud rather than a major source of income (+2 coin!) will make me think twice...

Also, it is not that big of a change to Civ (Civ was designed to have more terrains if people wanted them). The only change to Civ is the reversion effect (reverting back to a default terrain). Instead it is a major change to C2C (because of all the terrain based buildings that I didn't know about). THAT was the major change to Civ.

The major change I bring to the table isn't as much the terrains as it is how they are placed (and the new concepts).
 
I am going to say this as delicately as possible as to not offend anyone. I really think that terrain based buildings are fine in theory. Some probably need to be that way. But I think the number of terrain based buildings should be severely limited. I find the number of buildings I have to choose from in the build list endlessly horrific. Finding the building I want is a nightmare. Honestly, I think this mod has too much in the way of some types of choices. I find it distracting from the fun I usually have playing this game and I think the sheer number of choices probably bogs down the AI. But that is just my opinion. I play the game because I love maps and to explore the terrain... exploring a new world is what gives me over half my fun in this game (and its rather annoying that it takes so much time now).

The bottom line is that we all play this game for different reasons so we aren't always going to agree. I strongly believe that we shouldn't have so many choices (and hence, terrain based buildings). But that is just my opinion. What we need is options!
I agree that not everyone is a jazzed about the volume of new buildings. It's a common complaint and also a common source of positive feedback as well. As a result, I may seek to identify a segment of our buildings for isolation into a gameoption at some point.

Nevertheless, I've been personally finding that once you get comfy with the new build filters AIAndy put in place, it makes this selection process quite easy and headache free.

And the 'terrain based' and multi-resource access buildings are actually quite neat in the way they work, really allowing us to feel there's a difference in the environment and opportunities therein from one city to the next. Its just a level of complexity that takes a bit of time to get used to but once used to it, I find it adds a lot to the game experience.

Along the lines of exploration being fun - I totally agree this is one of my favorite areas of play. Someone had been working on a python method in the main forums that would cause explored areas to gradually revert back to blackened unexplored territory as your people gradually forget what was there when its been left in the fog of war and before you have Cartography. I thought this was a GREAT idea that could continue to make exploration fun (especially if there was a slight chance of goody huts popping up in previously explored but since reverted to unknown plots.) What's your take on this concept?

In python this was horrendous for processing but I think it could be done in the dll quite easily.
 
I agree that not everyone is a jazzed about the volume of new buildings. It's a common complaint and also a common source of positive feedback as well. As a result, I may seek to identify a segment of our buildings for isolation into a gameoption at some point.

Nevertheless, I've been personally finding that once you get comfy with the new build filters AIAndy put in place, it makes this selection process quite easy and headache free.

And the 'terrain based' and multi-resource access buildings are actually quite neat in the way they work, really allowing us to feel there's a difference in the environment and opportunities therein from one city to the next. Its just a level of complexity that takes a bit of time to get used to but once used to it, I find it adds a lot to the game experience.

Along the lines of exploration being fun - I totally agree this is one of my favorite areas of play. Someone had been working on a python method in the main forums that would cause explored areas to gradually revert back to blackened unexplored territory as your people gradually forget what was there when its been left in the fog of war and before you have Cartography. I thought this was a GREAT idea that could continue to make exploration fun (especially if there was a slight chance of goody huts popping up in previously explored but since reverted to unknown plots.) What's your take on this concept?

In python this was horrendous for processing but I think it could be done in the dll quite easily.

LOL... I like it. And it would be VERY appropriate for this mod since we start with cave men... with probably a less than stellar memory capacity (not to mention record keeping ability). "Drawing/writing techs could also modify this rate a bit. It wouldn't be that bad in processing... just add a game turn visited array to the plot for each team.... though processing through each plot may take some time.

I will have to learn how to use those filters.
 
I think this comment is a bit...short sighted. Sorry to be so blunt. The changes to jungle terrains alone make a huge difference in how jungles will be used (a HUGE gameplay effect). I know it will for me in a major way. I usually go chop down as much jungle as I can, if for no other reason than to get rid of the negative health effect. Now, turning all that jungle into useless mud rather than a major source of income (+2 coin!) will make me think twice...

The health effect is about to go now that we directly simulate the real reasons for the ill health with terrain based buildings Disease and Pests. Chopping down the jungle wont necessarily get rid of the mosquitoes and malaria.
 
Keep in mind that the GeoRealism mod is a map option! The extra terrains could be an option as well, placed only by the simulator. I haven't really looked for the xml source for how the original engine knows which terrains to place where (humid versus dry, cold versus warm, etc...) but if we leave the new terrains out of this selection, they won't be placed on maps until the GeoRealism mod takes over.

That would be interesting if the new terrains only appeared on specific maps. Sort of like a Classic C2C vs GeoRealism maps.

@primem0ver

So what will happen when the forest/jungle is put back either through the natural growing of the forest/jungle to other tiles or by replanting by players and/or terraforming. Will the terrain revert back to the forest/jungle floor type terrain?

So any comment on this primem0ver?

@Primem0ver:

I think that you should stick to adding the following two terrains. All of the others either already exist or don't really fit (see below).

  • Mediterranian
  • Temperate Steppe

I get your and Laskaris' points about tropical rainforests, but that is not really how the civ game works with regards to forests, jungles, and their base terrain. I don't think such a radical change for such small gameplay benefit is really worth it.

If we were to add just Mediterranian and Temperate Steppe, we would have a grand total of 18 (!) base terrains, that combined with the wealth of features we have should be more than enough to model almost any climate system to a close enough point in C2C.

We sort of already have them ...

Mediterranean = Scrub
Temperate Steppe = Plains

The sheer number of terrains is not the decisive factor, it's the kind of terrains that are available. C2C currently has an over-abundance of desert terrains, "barren", "rocky", "scrub", "desert", "dunes" and "salt flats". It has three sea terrains, three very cold terrains ("tundra", "permafrost", "ice"), and two different swamp terrains ("muddy" and "marsh"). On the other hand, humid (or semi-arid) tropical, subtropical and temperate regions are severely under-represented with only three terrains, "plains", "grasslands" and "lush", despite the fact that they have a big variety of climate types in the real world. All in all, the terrain palette really isn't well-suited for making detailed, Earth-like worlds. It seems more well-suited to making desert planets, frankly.

Rocky can be either. Rocky could be cold if you have evergreen forests on them. Likewise it could be tropical if you have jungle on them. Not just arid. Same could be said for scrub since one can have a polar scrub just as much as a tropical or arid scrub.

In fact aside from the terrains that do hot or cold damage they could be interchangeable. You can have cold/muddy or hot/muddy or even cold/marsh or hot/marsh. Much of these terrains were made not by temperature but by moisture in the middle of the spectrum.

And barren is completely neutral it could be barren and cold just as much barren and hot. It al depends upon where it was located on the map. That was one of the best parts of the terrains we made is they can be used for a variety of climates just based on where they were placed on the map.

This is exactly why I suggested we use the stats that Hydromancerx(?) has assigned to lush soils to a different environment other than tropical. Unfortunately the stats for the "lush" terrain make very little sense given its placement. However, a "lush environment" (with a different look of course) would make a whole lot of sense in semi-humid grassland plains areas.

However.. the "lush" terrain he uses would make a LOT of sense on tropical islands with volcanic soil. Volcanic soil is usually extremely rich in minerals.

That was the beauty of the system. Terrains + Features + Location = different biomes. For instance ...

- Marsh + Tall Grass + Equatorial Placement = Tropical Wetlands

- Marsh + Tall Grass + Polar Placement = Arctic Wetlands

Same terrain and terrain feature but different locations on the map. Lush can work the same way based on its location and terrain feature. You can have Lush Grass or Lush Bamboo or Lush Jungle or Lush Woodlands or Lush Forest or Lush Savanna. Lush being that it has rich soil and not the temperature of the terrain.
 
That was the beauty of the system. Terrains + Features + Location = different biomes. For instance ...

- Marsh + Tall Grass + Equatorial Placement = Tropical Wetlands

- Marsh + Tall Grass + Polar Placement = Arctic Wetlands

Same terrain and terrain feature but different locations on the map. Lush can work the same way based on its location and terrain feature. You can have Lush Grass or Lush Bamboo or Lush Jungle or Lush Woodlands or Lush Forest or Lush Savanna. Lush being that it has rich soil and not the temperature of the terrain.

I see your point. But personally, I prefer it when different biomes actually look different from each other on the map. Having exactly the same terrain plus feature combination for Tropical Wetlands and Arctic Wetlands, and having them look exactly the same, is not a system I find particularly satisfying, to be honest. Having them look different not only improves the aesthetics of the game in my view (which is admittedly a subjective aspect), it is also a perception aid - players can visually and instantly tell what kind of climate region they are dealing with.

Also, having a different terrain plus feature combination for different biomes allows us to assign different production values to them if appropriate.
 
So any comment on this primem0ver?

Yes... the mechanics of this will have to change slightly so that forest growth also brings with it the correct type of vegetation.

We sort of already have them ...

Mediterranean = Scrub
Temperate Steppe = Plains

Did you modify them? I specifically remember scrub being an all brown where the mediterranean is brown and green. So the C2C plains is actually temperate steppe?
 
Did you modify them? I specifically remember scrub being an all brown where the mediterranean is brown and green. So the C2C plains is actually temperate steppe?

1. Scrubland, Shrubland, Chaparral, Mediterranean, Heathland, etc are all just different names for the same type of biome. On the Köppen-Geiger char it would be Csa, Csb or Csc. Vegetation can vary from place to place such as Heathland can look like this. with purple flowers dominating the landscape. Some types also vary depending upon the region such as in iron rich soil will have redish soil rather than brownish. Also time of the year can influence what it looks like such as in the rainy season its green but in the dry season it typically barren or dry yellow/brown vegetation. In California we have a wildfire season where all the dry vegetation burns and the ground is scorched. Months later the ash sail helps the next generation of vegetation grow. In fact some trees in California cannot spread their seeds without wildfires. However that is in different types of biomes such as the Redwood Forests.

2. The plains were just an example where one terrain type can fill different niches such as grassland and plains can fill different niches such as in the Great Plains, Serengeti Plains, Eurasian Steppes, or South American Pampas. Plains being dryer than the Grasslands.

My degree is in Earth Science not geophysics! LOL.

I am surprised your not familiar with many of these terms. I am in no way an Earth Scientist but I have had to learn the various biomes for both C2C and Sagan 4. In fact one of the biggest challenges was to think of the biomes from say the Köppen climate system in a new way. In Civ4 we have the terrains and the terrain features. Meaning you could have different combos of each rather than making a terrain for each biome type.

Likewise for Sagan 4 I had to make a new system in which vegetation was unknown since in the game you make the flora and I had no way of knowing how people would evolve them so I split the biome up into the following categories ...

Spoiler :

Here is a master list of all the possible Biomes for Sagan 4.

Marine

Vents = Volcanic + Sea Floor

Cold Seep = Seep + Sea Floor

Ocean (Trench Floor) = Trench + Sea Floor
Ocean (Trench Zone) = Trench + Open Water
Ocean (Trench Slope) = Trench + Sea Slope

Ocean (Abyss Floor) = Abyss + Sea Floor
Ocean (Abyss Zone) = Abyss + Open Water
Ocean (Abyss Slope) = Abyss + Sea Slope
Ocean (Abyss Sea Mount) = Abyss + Sea Mount

Ocean (Midnight Floor) = Midnight + Sea Floor
Ocean (Midnight Zone) = Midnight + Open Water
Ocean (Midnight Slope) = Midnight + Sea Slope
Ocean (Midnight Sea Mount) = Midnight + Sea Mount

Ocean (Twilight Floor) = Twilight + Sea Floor
Ocean (Twilight Zone) = Twilight + Open Water
Ocean (Twilight Slope) = Twilight + Sea Slope
Ocean (Twilight Sea Mount) = Twilight + Sea Mount

Tropical Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Tropical
Temperate Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Temperate
Polar Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Polar

Tropical Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Tropical
Temperate Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Temperate
Polar Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Polar

Tropical Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Tropical Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Tropical Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Ice Sheet = Sunlight + Open Water + Glacial

Land

Glacier = Lowland + Glacial
Peak = Highland + Glacial

Tropical Beach = Beach + Tropical
Temperate Beach = Beach + Temperate
Polar Beach = Beach + Polar
Glacial Beach = Beach + Glacial

Tropical River = Freshwater + Tropical
Temperate River = Freshwater + Temperate
Polar River = Freshwater + Polar
Mountain River = Freshwater + Mountain
Glacial River = Freshwater + Glacial

Tropical Salt River = Saltwater + Tropical
Temperate Salt River = Saltwater + Temperate
Polar Salt River = Saltwater + Polar
Mountain Salt River = Saltwater + Mountain

Tropical Lake = Freshwater + Tropical
Temperate Lake = Freshwater + Temperate
Polar Lake = Freshwater + Polar
Glacial Lake = Freshwater + Glacial

Tropical Salt Lake = Saltwater + Tropical
Temperate Salt Lake = Saltwater + Temperate
Polar Salt Lake = Saltwater + Polar
Mountain Salt Lake = Saltwater + Mountain

Tropical Salt Flats = Tropical + Salt Flats
Temperate Salt Flats = Temperate + Salt Flats
Polar Salt Flats = Polar + Salt Flats
Mountain Salt Flats = Mountain + Salt Flats

Tropical Riparian = Flood Plain + Tropical
Temperate Riparian = Floor Plain + Temperate
Polar Riparian = Flood Plain + Polar
Mountain Riparian = Flood Plain + Mountain

Tropical Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Tropical
Temperate Salt Riparian = Salt Floor Plain + Temperate
Polar Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Polar
Mountain Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Polar

Swamp = Wetland + Tropical
Marsh = Wetland + Temperate
Bog = Wetland + Polar
Moor = Wetland + Mountain

Salt Swamp = Salt Wetland + Tropical
Salt Marsh = Salt Wetland + Temperate
Salt Bog = Salt Wetland + Polar
Salt Moor = Salt Wetland + Mountain

Tropical Rainforest = Rainforest + Tropical
Temperate Rainforest = Rainforest + Temperate
Taiga = Rainforest + Polar
Alpine = Rainforest + Mountain

Tropical Woodland = Woodland + Tropical
Temperate Woodland = Woodland + Temperate
Boreal = Woodland + Mountain

Tropical Scrub = Scrubland + Tropical
Chaparral = Scrubland + Temperate
Polar Scrub = Scrubland + Polar
Rocky = Scrubland + Mountain
Volcanic = Scrubland + Volcanic

Savanna = Grassland + Tropical
Plains = Grassland + Temperate
High Grassland = Grassland + Mountain

Dunes = Desert + Tropical
Desert = Desert + Temperate
Tundra = Desert + Polar
High Desert = Desert + Mountain

Ice Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Glacial
Limestone Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Limestone
Sandstone Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Sandstone
Volcanic Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Volcanic

Ice Cave = Cave + Glacial
Limestone Cave = Cave + Limestone
Sandstone Cave = Cave + Sandstone
Volcanic Cave = Cave + Volcanic

Ice Cavern = Cavern + Glacial
Limestone Cavern = Cavern + Limestone
Sandstone Cavern = Cavern + Sandstone
Volcanic Cavern = Cavern + Volcanic

Limestone Water Table = Water Table + Limestone
Sandstone Water Table = Water Table + Sandstone
Volcanic Water Table = Water Table + Volcanic

Atmosphere

Atmosphere (Troposphere) = Troposphere
Atmosphere (Stratosphere) = Stratosphere

I think i listed them all. Let me know if I forgot any.

Reference for the Ocean Biomes

4372481420_eaee57befe.jpg



Note that in the real game there are many more since they are named by location. Such as "Hydro Savanna".

Here is a peak at a map.
 
I don't really think that at least how we have it now Scrub is equal to Mediterranian terrain. Scrub is now normally found next to deserts and far inland, and has very little food production. Scrub is probably closer to the terrain in parts of New Mexico or Texas than it is to the terrain of Southern California, which is a prime example of Mediterranian terrain. So IMO Hydro the Medterranian terrain should look like where you live. ;)
 
I am surprised your not familiar with many of these terms. I am in no way an Earth Scientist but I have had to learn the various biomes for both C2C and Sagan 4.

It seems a bit strange that you would dig up a quote from the other thread just to have a dig at primem0ver. The context of that quote was a discussion about geophysical factors like planet rotational speed, planet core composition, magnetic pole location and movement etc., not biomes. Moreover, primem0ver did not say that he was not familiar with these terms, only that he considered them too complex for him to want to integrate them into the GeoRealism project, because it is enough work as it is and there is a point where very high levels of detail yield diminishing returns.

To be honest, I get the impression that we are moving away from a matter-of-fact discussion of ideas and proposals for the sake of what is good for the game, and towards a head-butting contest over "You guys can't just come in and mess up my beautiful terrains!". Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is the impression I am starting to get. And it's a bit frustrating for someone like me who just wants to help out and improve the mod.

I understand that terrains are not easily added or changed, because it raises balance issues, other parts of the mod might need to be adjusted etc. Still, the level of resistance seems to go beyond that.

My apologies in advance if I ruffle anyone's feathers, but I am always in favour of an open word. ;)
 
I am surprised your not familiar with many of these terms. I am in no way an Earth Scientist but I have had to learn the various biomes for both C2C and Sagan 4. In fact one of the biggest challenges was to think of the biomes from say the Köppen climate system in a new way. In Civ4 we have the terrains and the terrain features. Meaning you could have different combos of each rather than making a terrain for each biome type.

I grew up in the east (Maryland) so I am not familiar with all the dry climate lay terms. I only know the climate names and the types of vegetation they have.

Likewise for Sagan 4 I had to make a new system in which vegetation was unknown since in the game you make the flora and I had no way of knowing how people would evolve them so I split the biome up into the following categories ...

Spoiler :

Here is a master list of all the possible Biomes for Sagan 4.

Marine

Vents = Volcanic + Sea Floor

Cold Seep = Seep + Sea Floor

Ocean (Trench Floor) = Trench + Sea Floor
Ocean (Trench Zone) = Trench + Open Water
Ocean (Trench Slope) = Trench + Sea Slope

Ocean (Abyss Floor) = Abyss + Sea Floor
Ocean (Abyss Zone) = Abyss + Open Water
Ocean (Abyss Slope) = Abyss + Sea Slope
Ocean (Abyss Sea Mount) = Abyss + Sea Mount

Ocean (Midnight Floor) = Midnight + Sea Floor
Ocean (Midnight Zone) = Midnight + Open Water
Ocean (Midnight Slope) = Midnight + Sea Slope
Ocean (Midnight Sea Mount) = Midnight + Sea Mount

Ocean (Twilight Floor) = Twilight + Sea Floor
Ocean (Twilight Zone) = Twilight + Open Water
Ocean (Twilight Slope) = Twilight + Sea Slope
Ocean (Twilight Sea Mount) = Twilight + Sea Mount

Tropical Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Tropical
Temperate Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Temperate
Polar Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Polar

Tropical Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Tropical
Temperate Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Temperate
Polar Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Polar

Tropical Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Tropical Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Tropical Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Ice Sheet = Sunlight + Open Water + Glacial

Land

Glacier = Lowland + Glacial
Peak = Highland + Glacial

Tropical Beach = Beach + Tropical
Temperate Beach = Beach + Temperate
Polar Beach = Beach + Polar
Glacial Beach = Beach + Glacial

Tropical River = Freshwater + Tropical
Temperate River = Freshwater + Temperate
Polar River = Freshwater + Polar
Mountain River = Freshwater + Mountain
Glacial River = Freshwater + Glacial

Tropical Salt River = Saltwater + Tropical
Temperate Salt River = Saltwater + Temperate
Polar Salt River = Saltwater + Polar
Mountain Salt River = Saltwater + Mountain

Tropical Lake = Freshwater + Tropical
Temperate Lake = Freshwater + Temperate
Polar Lake = Freshwater + Polar
Glacial Lake = Freshwater + Glacial

Tropical Salt Lake = Saltwater + Tropical
Temperate Salt Lake = Saltwater + Temperate
Polar Salt Lake = Saltwater + Polar
Mountain Salt Lake = Saltwater + Mountain

Tropical Salt Flats = Tropical + Salt Flats
Temperate Salt Flats = Temperate + Salt Flats
Polar Salt Flats = Polar + Salt Flats
Mountain Salt Flats = Mountain + Salt Flats

Tropical Riparian = Flood Plain + Tropical
Temperate Riparian = Floor Plain + Temperate
Polar Riparian = Flood Plain + Polar
Mountain Riparian = Flood Plain + Mountain

Tropical Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Tropical
Temperate Salt Riparian = Salt Floor Plain + Temperate
Polar Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Polar
Mountain Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Polar

Swamp = Wetland + Tropical
Marsh = Wetland + Temperate
Bog = Wetland + Polar
Moor = Wetland + Mountain

Salt Swamp = Salt Wetland + Tropical
Salt Marsh = Salt Wetland + Temperate
Salt Bog = Salt Wetland + Polar
Salt Moor = Salt Wetland + Mountain

Tropical Rainforest = Rainforest + Tropical
Temperate Rainforest = Rainforest + Temperate
Taiga = Rainforest + Polar
Alpine = Rainforest + Mountain

Tropical Woodland = Woodland + Tropical
Temperate Woodland = Woodland + Temperate
Boreal = Woodland + Mountain

Tropical Scrub = Scrubland + Tropical
Chaparral = Scrubland + Temperate
Polar Scrub = Scrubland + Polar
Rocky = Scrubland + Mountain
Volcanic = Scrubland + Volcanic

Savanna = Grassland + Tropical
Plains = Grassland + Temperate
High Grassland = Grassland + Mountain

Dunes = Desert + Tropical
Desert = Desert + Temperate
Tundra = Desert + Polar
High Desert = Desert + Mountain

Ice Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Glacial
Limestone Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Limestone
Sandstone Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Sandstone
Volcanic Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Volcanic

Ice Cave = Cave + Glacial
Limestone Cave = Cave + Limestone
Sandstone Cave = Cave + Sandstone
Volcanic Cave = Cave + Volcanic

Ice Cavern = Cavern + Glacial
Limestone Cavern = Cavern + Limestone
Sandstone Cavern = Cavern + Sandstone
Volcanic Cavern = Cavern + Volcanic

Limestone Water Table = Water Table + Limestone
Sandstone Water Table = Water Table + Sandstone
Volcanic Water Table = Water Table + Volcanic

Atmosphere

Atmosphere (Troposphere) = Troposphere
Atmosphere (Stratosphere) = Stratosphere

I think i listed them all. Let me know if I forgot any.

Reference for the Ocean Biomes

4372481420_eaee57befe.jpg



Note that in the real game there are many more since they are named by location. Such as "Hydro Savanna".

Here is a peak at a map.

I am really glad you brought these up. I haven't made the under water biomes yet but it has always been a part of the plan. I am not as familiar with underwater biomes as I am with land biomes. So input is always appreciated.

An issue with underwater biomes is that we currently only have one underwater terrain and most underwater life-rich biomes do not occur on the abyssal plane. Is it possible to make an underwater "hills" terrain? The "Geographies" file will contain several definitions for underwater geography but we don't have many graphically unique tiles to depict these. So while the underwater geographies will exist in memory, they will not be visible unless we can make some new types of terrain.

Can the hills graphic use the sea bottom as its base or does it have to be above water?
 
It seems a bit strange that you would dig up a quote from the other thread just to have a dig at primem0ver.

LOL. It's ok. I am very self aware and comfortable with my knowledge and knowledge limits. In science we use terms and we relate them to what we already know. I don't have as many dry landscape terms in my vocabulary because I did not grow up in a dry climate at all. Before I went to college in Utah, I had only been exposed to the west twice in my life (none of those times in California). I only have the terms I learned when I learned about climates in the science classes I took. That is why I stick with them for now and we can rename later if people want. I am always willing to learn more.

To be honest, I get the impression that we are moving away from a matter-of-fact discussion of ideas and proposals for the sake of what is good for the game, and towards a head-butting contest over "You guys can't just come in and mess up my beautiful terrains!". Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is the impression I am starting to get. And it's a bit frustrating for someone like me who just wants to help out and improve the mod.

I believe there has been a little of that too... but I don't find any fault in it. It is completely understandable. It seems that Hydro did a lot of work and research into creating the terrains he did and now we are changing that work.

I commend (and already commended) Hydro's work. He doesn't have our Geography teaching background and given that he has done a superb job in improving the look of the terrain in C2C (along with anyone else who has been involved). Remember... as I have previously stated his plethora of terrains made me realize how realistic the world could look if we took it one step further and made an actual simulator, adding a few more wet terrains to complete the job.

While the reaction is understandable, don't be offended (rather complimented) if I change things a bit to make them even more realistic. I am basically just adding to what has already been done.
 
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