[GeoRealism] The two core BiomeInfo files

[Hydromancerx]

I commend (and already commended) Hydro's work. He doesn't have our Geography teaching background and given that he has done a superb job in improving the look of the terrain in C2C (along with anyone else who has been involved). Remember... as I have previously stated his plethora of terrains made me realize how realistic the world could look if we took it one step further and made an actual simulator, adding a few more wet terrains to complete the job.

Thanks. And I can totally see where you are going with this since I too had to adapt the system for Civ4 which ment rather than making a terrain for each type of biome I went the way of combining terrains with terrain features to make new biomes.

And I guess we are coming to the same conclusion where you are a Earth Scientist who designs games and I am a Game Designer who studies earth science. From your method you obviously accounted more for the real science of it rather than generalizing or simplifying things. While I was trying to see how it still fit within the game mechanics of the existing Civ4 system.

I actually like much of your plan however i dislike Laskaris trying to take away the existing stuff I put in. I think both your stuff and mine can co-exist. If anything yours can supplement the existing system just like mine supplemented the terrains of Vanilla Civ4.

On a side note, modding civ4 has been like a classroom. In everything I have added I have also had to research it. In the process I have learned a great deal about many different subjects be it earth sciences for terrains, zoology for subdued animals, history for the cultures and unique units, all the variety of buildings and units and resources. The list goes on and on. Hopefully the player will learn something too when playing C2C.

 

[AIAndy]

An issue with underwater biomes is that we currently only have one underwater terrain and most underwater life-rich biomes do not occur on the abyssal plane. Is it possible to make an underwater "hills" terrain? The "Geographies" file will contain several definitions for underwater geography but we don't have many graphically unique tiles to depict these. So while the underwater geographies will exist in memory, they will not be visible unless we can make some new types of terrain.

Can the hills graphic use the sea bottom as its base or does it have to be above water?

Unfortunately not as hills is a plot type like ocean and peaks. So we are restricted to texture changes.

 

[Laskaris]

I actually like much of your plan however i dislike Laskaris trying to take away the existing stuff I put in.

Just for clarification: I am not trying to take away anything. I wrote earlier: "If I had complete freedom, I would throw out half of the desert terrains, one of the swamp terrains..." But I was talking about a purely hypothetical situation, i.e. if I were to make a mod myself from the grounds up, in order to illustrate my personal design philosophy. It was not meant as an actual suggestion to take away something.

Personally, I do consider some of the desert terrains in C2C redundant, but I respect your work and the fact that you want to keep them in. So I am not going to argue with that. I think we should all understand that, at the end of the day, which terrains one likes and which terrains one does not like is to a large degree a subjective aesthetic choice. Some people like the look of a certain terrain, others don't. Some people advocate one concept for modelling different climate zones or biomes, others advocate a different and perhaps equally valid concept - so again, which one you prefer comes down to personal taste.

 

[primem0ver]

Hopefully the player will learn something too when playing C2C.

That's my goal!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Can I ask this:
When this is used to establish a map, can it also be used to control and maintain weather pattern informations and be extended to consider how the map may change under our feet throughout the game?

For example, we've discussed glaciers and such, sure, but what about what happens when I chop down a forest and allow for erosion on a hill that may then translate to muddy terrain in the neighboring valley floor, or now the winds travel somewhat differently so the rainshadow changes to the north turning a section into desert. Will they guide the growth of various vegetations rather than the random forest expansions we see now? Will we be at all able to utilize these bio-definition spheres to determine animal ecosystems and attach those ecosystems to the evolving ecosphere? Will rivers potentially shift course on certain changes? Will storm patterns take definition?

Has any of this been considered in the course of developing this project?

 

[primem0ver]

Can I ask this:
When this is used to establish a map, can it also be used to control and maintain weather pattern informations and be extended to consider how the map may change under our feet throughout the game?

For example, we've discussed glaciers and such, sure, but what about what happens when I chop down a forest and allow for erosion on a hill that may then translate to muddy terrain in the neighboring valley floor, or now the winds travel somewhat differently so the rainshadow changes to the north turning a section into desert.

What a great question to help point out the purpose of some of the tags...

This is the reason for the bRooted tag. Rooted vegetations will hold on to soil more readily so erosion (weathering) will be considerably slower where "rooted" vegetations exist. As for less subtle effects on events and stuff... no thats not part of the basic engine design for immediate consideration but those types of effects can be incorporated with time (once the engine has been put into place).

Will they guide the growth of various vegetations rather than the random forest expansions we see now?

Yes. This is a goal as well but not necessarily a top priority.

Will we be at all able to utilize these bio-definition spheres to determine animal ecosystems and attach those ecosystems to the evolving ecosphere?

Yes... this is something that I have wanted to incorporate since soon after I designed the approach for bonus generation... I also considered "animal generation" as well. Not a top priority but close to the top.

Will rivers potentially shift course on certain changes? Will storm patterns take definition?

Has any of this been considered in the course of developing this project?

Drainage changes throughout pre-history have definitely been something I have planned for... but drainage calculations are very complex (probably the most complex part of the engine) and must be balanced against turn time. For this reason I haven't really seriously considered it as part of the regular in-game engine. I am open to considering it though...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yes... this is something that I have wanted to incorporate since soon after I designed the approach for bonus generation... I also considered "animal generation" as well. Not a top priority but close to the top.

We have done quite a lot on trying to limit animal generation to the correct biome. Currently it is a very crude mechanism which uses latitude and longitude to provide boundaries. Which is why you very rarely see lemurs in game. Anything that can be done to improve that I am all for. The current XML for the placement of animal resources does not have such a fine tuning so you may end up with a herd of kangaroos in Sweden for example.

 

[primem0ver]

@Laskaris and possibly others...

I hope to update the first three posts (and downloadable files) to the latest edition by tomorrow (Friday) evening so that you can begin filling in the precipitation data with appropriate values . Thanks a bunch!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes... this is something that I have wanted to incorporate since soon after I designed the approach for bonus generation... I also considered "animal generation" as well. Not a top priority but close to the top.

We have a good engine for this now that I think would just take a bit of tweaking to work with your system. We'd just need to define the ecospheres more clearly and define the way animals spawn within the various ecospheres, which is somewhat like what we have now. My point is I think you should get familiar with those methods already employed as you move forward here so you can consider how that would be able to get worked into the whole of the system to make something more like what we intend for regional spawning definitions.

Drainage changes throughout pre-history have definitely been something I have planned for... but drainage calculations are very complex (probably the most complex part of the engine) and must be balanced against turn time. For this reason I haven't really seriously considered it as part of the regular in-game engine. I am open to considering it though...

Perhaps not much the players could do would manipulate this all too greatly (with the vast exception of dams/water power of course!)
So what you COULD do here would be to pre-define the evolution of waterways to take place at certain points in time as part of the map generation process. Then, the few things the civs might do that could change this could be made to cause an immediate reprocess adjustment to that model. That would help reduce the 'between turn' processing I think. Just a theory atm.

 

[AIAndy]

Perhaps not much the players could do would manipulate this all too greatly (with the vast exception of dams/water power of course!)
So what you COULD do here would be to pre-define the evolution of waterways to take place at certain points in time as part of the map generation process. Then, the few things the civs might do that could change this could be made to cause an immediate reprocess adjustment to that model. That would help reduce the 'between turn' processing I think. Just a theory atm.

I'd say to do a climate recalculation about once every X turns. That way it won't hurt that much even if it is a bit expensive.

 

[primem0ver]

I have updated the Climate engine files. Two significant changes:

• The iMinPrecipitation tag has been changed to be a subset of MinPrecipitations with a month designation. The 0 months are peak hot (h) and cold (k) months with s and f as spring and fall month designations respectively.
• All Default "Terrain" tags have been changed to "Vegetation" tags

 

[Laskaris]

I have updated the Climate engine files.

Thank you. I will go over them in the next couple of days.

I've done some thinking on the basics already, and I believe that, for a Köppen-based system to actually work, we would need not just monthly min precipitation values, but also montly max precipitation values. This is necessary to determine those climate zones that are defined by having a certain max precipitation during certain times of the year, and a wet time at another time of the year - like Mediterranean climates, and a couple of others.

I know that you are probably reluctant to add more tags to the system, but like I said, I have thought about this and I don't think that there really is a way around it...

What measure are the precipitation values supposed to be in? Millimeters, centimeters...?

Also, regarding the humidity values: I believe that the airmass calculator (or whatever part of the engine) uses the humidity to determine the precipitation. But once we have the precipitation, we no longer need humidity to determine the climate type. So, is it really necessary to have the iMinHumidity and iMaxHumidity tags in the BiomeInfos file? Also, what do the humidity numbers stand for? Relative humidity, in percent?

The other main factor for Köppen, aside from precipitation, is mean temperature. How does the engine determine this? Does it have anything to do with AirMassType? Something else?

And the last question for now: in the monthly min precipitation tags, what do the numbers behind the letters stand for? The series is k0, k1, s2, s3, s2, h1, h0, h1, f2, f3, f2, and k1. So the numbers go from 0 to 3 and back again, but I am not quite sure what exactly that is supposed to denote?

 

[primem0ver]

Thank you. I will go over them in the next couple of days.

I've done some thinking on the basics already, and I believe that, for a Köppen-based system to actually work, we would need not just monthly min precipitation values, but also montly max precipitation values. This is necessary to determine those climate zones that are defined by having a certain max precipitation during certain times of the year, and a wet time at another time of the year - like Mediterranean climates, and a couple of others.

I was thinking of just using the remaining climates as the max. But if you really think its necessary, you can duplicate the min tags for max tags. I will add the support when you are done.

What measure are the precipitation values supposed to be in? Millimeters, centimeters...?

centimeters

Also, regarding the humidity values: I believe that the airmass calculator (or whatever part of the engine) uses the humidity to determine the precipitation. But once we have the precipitation, we no longer need humidity to determine the climate type. So, is it really necessary to have the iMinHumidity and iMaxHumidity tags in the BiomeInfos file? Also, what do the humidity numbers stand for? Relative humidity, in percent?

Relative humidity (percent). I will keep the tags until I am certain I won't use them for anything. Currently these values are educated guesses.

The other main factor for Köppen, aside from precipitation, is mean temperature. How does the engine determine this? Does it have anything to do with AirMassType? Something else?

Latitude will be used to determine the base temperature. Several other factors will come into play including air mass type, currents, humidity (for a range), and approximated albedo. This will probably change as needed to produce more realistic results.

And the last question for now: in the monthly min precipitation tags, what do the numbers behind the letters stand for? The series is k0, k1, s2, s3, s2, h1, h0, h1, f2, f3, f2, and k1. So the numbers go from 0 to 3 and back again, but I am not quite sure what exactly that is supposed to denote?

0 = most extreme. 3 = least extreme (temperature mid point). k = kalt (german for cold). h = heiss (german for hot). f = fall median. s = spring median.

 

[ls612]

@primem0ver: How will the GeoRealism generator link into the existing map generation? Will it have adjustable settings like a normal mapscript, or will it be hardcoded as an alternative to the current mapscripts? That has been the question that has been confusing me slightly with regards to this project.

 

[primem0ver]

@primem0ver: How will the GeoRealism generator link into the existing map generation? Will it have adjustable settings like a normal mapscript, or will it be hardcoded as an alternative to the current mapscripts? That has been the question that has been confusing me slightly with regards to this project.

I answered this question in the main GeoRealism thread since it is more appropriate there.

 

[Laskaris]

primem0ver, I just wanted to let you know: I released my last project, my Gigantic Accurate Earth Map, today. I had been working on it for a long time and had promised to release it before the end of October.

Now, this weekend, I can get to work on the GeoRealism stuff...

 

[ls612]

primem0ver, I just wanted to let you know: I released my last project, my Gigantic Accurate Earth Map, today. I had been working on it for a long time and had promised to release it before the end of October.

Now, this weekend, I can get to work on the GeoRealism stuff...

Woah, nice map! Sometime if you want we'd really appreciate that with C2C terrains, as an even bigger version of the GEM we already have.

 

[primem0ver]

Woah, nice map! Sometime if you want we'd really appreciate that with C2C terrains, as an even bigger version of the GEM we already have.

I have spoken with Laskaris about this both in PM and in some of these discussions. If all goes well he won't have nearly the amount of work in order to accomplish this. Our goal (assuming he agrees with my proposal I recently sent him) is to use his map to test and perfect the climate engine, thus having the engine create the C2C version of the Earth map. If all goes well, the only changes that will need to be made to the resulting map are placements that arise from the random element in the engine (i.e. placement of specific vegetation and bonuses).

 

[ls612]

I have spoken with Laskaris about this both in PM and in some of these discussions. If all goes well he won't have nearly the amount of work in order to accomplish this. Our goal (assuming he agrees with my proposal I recently sent him) is to use his map to test and perfect the climate engine, thus having the engine create the C2C version of the Earth map. If all goes well, the only changes that will need to be made to the resulting map are placements that arise from the random element in the engine (i.e. placement of specific vegetation and bonuses).

I look forward to seeing the results!

 

[Laskaris]

Woah, nice map! Sometime if you want we'd really appreciate that with C2C terrains, as an even bigger version of the GEM we already have.

Thank you, I quite like it myself. And trust me, it was a lot of work!

I might do a C2C converstion after the new terrains proposed by primem0ver and me are in C2C. I would rather wait until I have a palette to work with that allows me to more accurately model the Earth's different climate zones and biomes. The design philosophy of the map is gepgraphical accuracy, and it would like to stick with that as much as possible.