German unique ability is overpowered and crazy

[Ceterius]

It's laughably easy to beat Immortal or even Deity as the Germans. Especially with large maps, and slow speeds.

Just go Honor, and capture barbarian encampments while building early Wonders like Stonehenge and the Oracle in the capital. Captured barbarian brutes can be used to reach other encampments, which causes a snowball effect. The player will get massive amounts of units and gold from the barbarian encampments. Germany is also the only civilization which has the advantage of not building units, and focusing on wonders and expansion. Avoid horsemen, Germany does not need them.

The first war can be declared when you have 6-7 units and a GG near the neighbor's borders. Next wars will only become easier as puppeted cities will allow the player to field a larger army. An army of 35 units in the classical era did not even cause my income to go negative. Beelining Civil Service allows to upgrade barbarian spearmen to landsknechts almost free. It's rather tedious to play with such a large army and constantly hunting barbarians but picking the Germans seems the easiest way to beat the highest difficulties.

 

[vendur]

A couple of civs are like that, especially the civs with dominante early game units. You can keep the game in the early stages of development and push everyone off the continent you are on without trouble. greece for example. Which, imo, is way better than Germany. I hate Bismarks stupid barbarian ability. Half the time I appraoch a barbarian encapment on the higher difficulties, they come outside of the camp and attack, making the ability useless. Or I'm about to attack with my warrior and they suddenly spawn another barb right next to the camp with having to camp to heal, it just takes way too long. then you still only have a 50% chance of getting a barb unit. And I even doubt you could pull this off without playing on pangea or some such.

 

[Ceterius]

A couple of civs are like that, especially the civs with dominante early game units. You can keep the game in the early stages of development and push everyone off the continent you are on without trouble. greece for example. Which, imo, is way better than Germany.

Greece can't go for early wonders if it wants to rush with CC, and it can't match Germany's large armies and ability to generate gold. Germany's massive army usually also deters other civilizations from declaring war on it.

I hate Bismarks stupid barbarian ability. Half the time I appraoch a barbarian encapment on the higher difficulties, they come outside of the camp and attack, making the ability useless.

Germany is also able to get units from empty encampments. (I get lots of them with archers)

Or I'm about to attack with my warrior and they suddenly spawn another barb right next to the camp with having to camp to heal, it just takes way too long. then you still only have a 50% chance of getting a barb unit. And I even doubt you could pull this off without playing on pangea or some such.

I have never had a problem with barbs attacking my unit from the encampment if it's on full HP. Rarely, barbs may attack an unit which has only 1 HP and waiting to heal. Most of the time they don't attack even if the unit is at low HP waiting to heal and they would win the fight. Sending one brute is sufficient to capture also the encampments on hills.

 

[vendur]

Greece can't go for early wonders if it wants to rush with CC, and it can't match Germany's large armies and ability to generate gold. Germany's massive army usually also deters other civilizations from declaring war on it.

Who the hell goes for wonders on immortal/diety? You almost never get them. Waste of time. Massive army also consumes massive unit cost. I'm beginning to think you havent played much with germany or civ 5 in general after reading your response here.

Germany is also able to get units from empty encampments. (I get lots of them with archers)

I don't buy it. I have never ever got a unit from just walking into a camp. I just went back and read the ability, and I doubt they would make that error. It clearly says you must defeat the unit inside an encampment.

I have never had a problem with barbs attacking my unit from the encampment if it's on full HP. Rarely, barbs may attack an unit which has only 1 HP and waiting to heal. Most of the time they don't attack even if the unit is at low HP waiting to heal and they would win the fight. Sending one brute is sufficient to capture also the encampments on hills.

I'd say anywhere from 30-40% of the tiem I approach a camp on the higher difficulties, the barbs come out to fight me instead of staying in the camp if my warrior is alone. obviously it gets much easier once you finally get an ally. Still, it can often prove a major pain in butt. i remember one time where I went through 6 barb camps and not a single ally to show for it, and i'm sure a couple of those would have proven far more useful for city states to request help against.

In short, the ability isn't very good even if you stack the deck in its favor with marathon. The unit cost will kill to maintain an army even remotely close to a 4 CC unit with a great general. And you won't have a drooling horde of zombies that stub their toe on any rough terrain on the way. The CC zips around everywhere allowing you to dominate twice as fast.

 

[R3dKnight]

Marathon broke everything. I've fought AI who couldn't build any effective defense against 3 Hoplites. But everything about Marathon is unplayable at this point. Unless you really enjoy jamming the next turn.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

I could see this working if you really commit to it. The problem is that with a string of bad luck with your 50% ability, you could wind up with a small number of warriors all healing slowly in their little batches and consistent AI defeat of the spawning camps due to their large bonus vs. barbs at high levels.

Then you wind up basically out of the game unless the AI doesn't expand and close off your barb factories which isn't going to happen on Immortal+.

 

[pi-r8]

I'll be honest, I don't believe that you were able to beat deity with this strategy. Not without abusing small maps plus marathon speed, at least.

 

[Celevin]

I hate the Germans.

1) Their ability either kicks total ass, or flops. There's no middle ground. It's impossible to balance over the course of the game, and will always remain this black sheep ability where you have one massive goal in a game.
2) It's so lopsided to the early game that if it doesn't work, I can see a lot of people quitting. If I don't have an early rush work as say China, I can still fall back, try again, and use my abilities later to make a comeback.
3) Map settings can kill the ability. Hell, even sometimes you get a rotten start on regular map settings and only see 2-3 barbarian huts. What an "ability"!
4) Did I mention it's impossible to patch and balance it?

 

[Dingbats]

i, too, have gotten barbarians from empty encampments. it does happen.
also, i dont like germany. the UA is way too dependant on luck and the panzer is a tank, which are useless.
the landsknechts are only remotely useful when many of your units die, thus forcing you to rebuild them. which shouldnt happen.

 

[R3dKnight]

If you really want to see a Deity strat I kinda practicing, go check out this on-going game thread I created. I welcome new ideas and advice. Cause I'm never confident of a win in Deity and all help is appreciated.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=389646

 

[Ceterius]

Who the hell goes for wonders on immortal/diety? You almost never get them.

I got both Stonehenge and Oracle with my Immortal game on Huge map.

Waste of time. Massive army also consumes massive unit cost. I'm beginning to think you havent played much with germany or civ 5 in general after reading your response here.

Unit supply costs are small in Ancient and Classical eras. I get positive income despite being at unit cap. (35+ military units)

I use even 10 units hunting barbs near home territory since they provide additional income.

I don't buy it. I have never ever got a unit from just walking into a camp. I just went back and read the ability, and I doubt they would make that error. It clearly says you must defeat the unit inside an encampment.

Wrong. There is no difference if you kill the barb with a warrior or an archer. An archer can walk to an empty encampment, and get an unit with 50 % chance.

In short, the ability isn't very good even if you stack the deck in its favor with marathon. The unit cost will kill to maintain an army even remotely close to a 4 CC unit with a great general.

On Marathon, the player will earn 3000+ gold from the barbarian camps when obtaining those 35 units. It benefits the economy. A large army is militarily far more viable than 4 CC who can die easily.

 

[Ceterius]

the landsknechts are only remotely useful when many of your units die, thus forcing you to rebuild them. which shouldnt happen.

Spearmen can be upgraded to landsknechts with 10 gold.

Very useful. Germany gets lots of spearmen from barbarian camps.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I hate the Germans.

1) Their ability either kicks total ass, or flops. There's no middle ground. It's impossible to balance over the course of the game, and will always remain this black sheep ability where you have one massive goal in a game.
2) It's so lopsided to the early game that if it doesn't work, I can see a lot of people quitting. If I don't have an early rush work as say China, I can still fall back, try again, and use my abilities later to make a comeback.
3) Map settings can kill the ability. Hell, even sometimes you get a rotten start on regular map settings and only see 2-3 barbarian huts. What an "ability"!
4) Did I mention it's impossible to patch and balance it?

And this is worse than the ottoman empire how?

 

[vendur]

And this is worse than the ottoman empire how?

What does that have to do with anything? Ottoman is definitely a worse UI. the point?

I got a funny feeling these people who think Germany's ability is all that great on higher difficulties just constantly reload. Reload when they walk their warrior into a encampment and get killed cause they spawned a guy next to it, reload when it doesn't give the 50%, reload when etc. Half the games I play I don't even manage to get to more than 3-4 barb camps by the time computer has hunted most to extinction. I just don't buy any of it. I played germany for a long time, and I'm not swallowing any of this. The ability sucks. The best use of it would be a large map with few players so the babr camps might survive more than the first 30 turns. Even then I'd still take alexander every time over bismarck. It's not even close.

 

[darrelljs]

How are you getting Stonehenge on Deity?

Darrell

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What does that have to do with anything? Ottoman is definitely a worse UI. the point?

I got a funny feeling these people who think Germany's ability is all that great on higher difficulties just constantly reload. Reload when they walk their warrior into a encampment and get killed cause they spawned a guy next to it, reload when it doesn't give the 50%, reload when etc. Half the games I play I don't even manage to get to more than 3-4 barb camps by the time computer has hunted most to extinction. I just don't buy any of it. I played germany for a long time, and I'm not swallowing any of this. The ability sucks. The best use of it would be a large map with few players so the babr camps might survive more than the first 30 turns. Even then I'd still take alexander every time over bismarck. It's not even close.

No, that ottomans suck worse isn't super relevant, I'm just pointing out that you have civs that are obviously better and worse, and this one is more midline...perhaps a bit toward the bottom.

 

[Ceterius]

How are you getting Stonehenge on Deity?

It's worth trying especially if you get marble and/or pop growth from a hut.

 

[bryanw1995]

he got it on immortal, he just extrapolated that it should be just as easy on deity based upon his one game.

 

[bryanw1995]

It's worth trying especially if you get marble and/or pop growth from a hut.

and you're playing as egypt and you get a +30 culture right away and you use up your first two SP's on tradition and...

 

[budweiser]

What does that have to do with anything? Ottoman is definitely a worse UI. the point?

I got a funny feeling these people who think Germany's ability is all that great on higher difficulties just constantly reload. Reload when they walk their warrior into a encampment and get killed cause they spawned a guy next to it, reload when it doesn't give the 50%, reload when etc. Half the games I play I don't even manage to get to more than 3-4 barb camps by the time computer has hunted most to extinction. I just don't buy any of it. I played germany for a long time, and I'm not swallowing any of this. The ability sucks. The best use of it would be a large map with few players so the babr camps might survive more than the first 30 turns. Even then I'd still take alexander every time over bismarck. It's not even close.

Non-sense.

Germany is so easy, I stopped using them. Just because you cant see how to work barb camps to your advantage doesn't mean its a bad ability. How many barb camps do you need before you have an army that you cant afford?

Honor & Patronage. Kill all AI, puppet caps. Pretty soon the whole map is empty except for barb camps, puppet caps, city states and you.