1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

"Germanness" in 19th century German history

Discussion in 'World History' started by Traitorfish, Nov 29, 2013.

  1. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
    Traitorfish - which part was hard to understand for you? Try this article maybe:

    "English or Irish? Cultural nationalist ideology in late 19th-century Ireland":

    http://webbut.unitbv.ro/BU2010/Series IV/BULETIN IV PDF/CULTURAL STUDIES/33_Pinter.pdf

    Today Irish language is being taught in all schools in Ireland:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language#Republic_of_Ireland

    And what I was talking about was, that this situation resembles a hypothetical situation in which all East Germans must learn Sorbian and Sorbian is adopted as the first official language in East Germany, and lessons of Sorbian are obligatory in all schools in East Germany, etc., etc.

    Compared to year 1900, a very significant increase in the number of people who can speak Irish has occured by now:

    Proportion of respondents who said they could speak Irish in the Ireland census in 2011 or the Northern Ireland census in 2011:



    Number of people who can speak Irish is of course higher than number of people who actually do this on a regular basis.

    And according to the National University of Ireland, nowadays already ca. 25% of population of the Rep. of Ireland speak Irish regularly.

    ==============================================

    So much for your claim that Irish identity is not related to Irish language... :rolleyes: Tell this again after reading everything posted above.

    It is like saying that Jewish identity is not related to Hebrew language.

    No matter what other languages Jews speak, they also consider Hebrew as their own language. And that has always been the case.

    A similar case to Ireland is the nation-state of Lithuania, and Lithuanian nationalism. Modern Lithuanian identity is based on Baltic Lithuanian language, which - pretty much like Irish - was spoken only by some peasants during the late 19th century. Vast majority of Catholic members of middle and upper classes of Lithuania, as well as majority of Catholic peasants in some regions of Lithuania, used to speak Polish. Polish-speakers in Lithuania - who nowadays are still the majority of population in the southern part of Lithuania, known as the Vilno Region (and during the first 40-45 years of the 20th century they were majority in an even larger area), do not identify themselves as ethnic Lithuanians, but as ethnic Poles, and they link themselves with the Polish political nation.

    Compare the Vilno Region to Ulster, where most of people also have very distinct identities to identities of people in the rest of Ireland.

    But Northern Ireland is still part of the UK, while the Vilno Region was taken away from Poland and given to Lietuva.

    Apart from Vilno Region, Polish-speakers were also over 50% of population in the region of Lauda (Liaudė), and over 25% of population in the Kovno Region (of which Lauda was part) at the turns of the 19th and the 20th centuries. But those Poles became largely assimilated into the Lithuanian nation, adopting Lithuanian identity and their Baltic language - like Douglas Hyde adopted Irish Gaelic, despite being born to English-speaking parents.

    Lietuva is a nation-state based on the heritage of Pagan Baltic Lithuania, not on the heritage of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
     
  2. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Messages:
    9,019
    Location:
    Transtavia
    He's just trying to fit the dynamics of eastern European ethnic essentialism onto the modern Insular world, and predictably isn't making any sense.
     
  3. Tolina

    Tolina trust the pillars with your s e c r e t s

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,524
    Location:
    Nightvale, US
    Yeah! Screw Eastern Europeans and their total inability of understanding the absolute superiority of the Western World!
     
  4. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,205
    Location:
    Scotland
    I don't think that's what Pangur was saying, at all.
     
  5. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
    The main reason why the Irish people did not adopt English ethnic identity - despite adopting English language - was because Irish cultural features became a substitute for lost language (apparently Irish culture was so distinct from English culture that they were able to maintain a distinct identity even after language ceased to be a barrier separating them) - an excerpt from "Language as a Marker of Ethnic Identity in New Zealand’s Pasifika Communities":

    It doesn't undermine the fact that in most situations language and religion historically have been good indicators of ethnic belongingness.

    Excerpt from "My language, my people: language and ethnic identity among British-born South Asians":

    ====================================

    No, I am arguing against your Insular ethnic primordialism, as I am a follower of ethnic instrumentalism:

    "Why is Language Often Closely Related to Ethnic and National Identity?":

    http://www.thomastsoi.com/wp-conten...y Related to Ethnic and National Identity.pdf

    Flying Pig seems to be a follower of ethnic primordialism, and you Pangur perhaps as well.

    I maintain that in places like Europe in 90% of cases, 90% of ethnic diversity can be explained by language and religion - without even taking into consideration "perceptions of biological ancestry", or whatever. Perceptions of biological ancestry are much more important when it comes to race, as people differentiate themselves into races based on visible differences in physical appearance. But peoples belonging to the same race (who really cannot be distinguished from each other based on physical appearance) also differentiate themselves into ethnic groups, as you can observe for example in Europe.
     
  6. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
    Pangur in another thread wrote that "Poles emerged from a mix of Russians and Germans", which shows that he is also a primordialist, he overlooks that language and religion are key factors which distinguish Poles from both Russians (here religion to a greater extent, but language as well) and Germans (here language to a greater extent, but religion historically as well, because since the Reformation German-speaking areas that bordered Poles were dominated by Protestants).

    Another thing is that "Russians" and "Germans" also did not yet exist by the time when the ethnogenesis of Poles was beginning to take place.
     
  7. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Messages:
    9,019
    Location:
    Transtavia
    My 'Insular ethnic primordialism' is, like most things stances you attribute to me, your own invention.
     
  8. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
    Yet their Polish language played an important role in Mazurian ethnic identity. As you wrote, they did not regard themselves as Germans, but a distinct ethnicity. There existed the Mazurian Autonomy Movement, with its main organization - Mazurenbund (founded by Kurt Obitz). They promoted "Masurianness" ("Masurenschutz") and resisted Germanization, defending their Polish language. Their main newspapers during the 1930s were "Cech" and "Mazur".

    On 23.11.1938 in No. 94 of "Mazur" newspaper, they published the "Ten Mazurian Commandments":

    1. The goal of my life is service to God and to the Mazurian Peoples. Serving God and the Mazurian Peoples I serve my own well-being and best interest.

    2. I know well that I am a citizen of the German Reich and I give to the state what the state justly deserves. I respect the German nation and the German language, but I demand mutual respect and reverance for the Mazurian Peoples and its mother tongue.

    3. I am proud of, and I consider it lucky, that God created me a Mazurian.

    4. I understand consciously, that above all earthly paths my Mazurian Peoples must be sacred just like its beloved mother tongue and land.

    5. I am aware of great responsibility that rests on me towards the Mazurian Peoples. I know, that just like all Mazurian men and women I am responsible for the future of my Homeland.

    6. Toughly and relentlessly I defend my language, my land, and honor of my ancestors, all of which I received as my heritage.

    7. I have strong will to fight this defensive battle of mine justly until the end.

    8. I strongly believe in the Mazurian Peoples, in its lucky future, in its higher destiny and its mission.

    9. In daily life I set a good example for other Mazurian men and women.

    10. I am not afraid of obstacles and hardships. In bad times God will not abandon us, he is a great saviour.

    ====================================

    Mazurenbund and the Mazurian Autonomy Movement were persecuted by German authorities, they were seen as "hostile to Germanness".
     
  9. Carolus I

    Carolus I Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2014
    Messages:
    75
    Location:
    Regnum Francorum Orientalium
  10. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
    Yes probably the same one. They advocated for staying within Germany (rather than becoming part of Poland), but they wanted the region of Masuria to be autonomous. They also resisted Germanization efforts (hostile actions against Polish language) - convincing German authorities that their Polish language was not dangerous was probably part of that resistance to Germanization, and an attempt to protect their culture (of which language was part).

    ================================

    Edit:

    A paper (in German) about Memelland and its ethnic history (with several good maps):

    http://www.tausendschoen-verlag.de/PDF/Memelland.pdf

    Mostly about Prussians, Lithuanians and Germans.
     
  11. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland

    Attached Files:

Share This Page