Getting my ass handed to me in Monarch

[rrhal]

I'm stumped as to the best way to proceed with this game. I'm the Spanish (expansion/spiritual) playing at monarch level on a large map.

Fisrt city is in a decent place - water tile with copper, marbel, corn, and pigs with in the city radius and iron, sugar, dye. I have a water tile with 2f,2c so I can discover early tech and still grow. In fact I can win the race to meditaion or polytheism every time.

I have 2 3f tiles I can grow to 3 as fast as anbody. There are pleanty of woods near by - I can cut one or two down with out any real harm.

Unless I play a hard core military early game I get mopped up by Barbarians. I can usually get an early religion in but expansion seems to be very difficult.

What do you do with this starting position (see attached)?

 

[mrjepson]

I lost my first several games in Monarch until I began focussing on Military. You don't have to go over board but you do need the ability to kill a small city at any time. When I'm playing on Monarch I generaly build very few cities and then focus on conquering barbarian cities which are always in good spots anyways.

 

[Rustypipe]

On harder difficulty settings you always need miltary escorts for your settlers. Usally I build warriors till my city is either a 2 or a 3 depends on what the barbarian situation is like. In most cases this gives me around 2-4 warrios depending on starting location, but with a starting location like that you should be able to clean up.

 

[rrhal]

Escorts for the settlers are a must. And some troops to watch over the workers. I'm talking about my cities being raized by barbarian axemen and Archers.

What should I go for first? Archery or bronze working? Take time to snuffle a religion or no?

 

[Shillen]

Yeah archery is actually an important tech to get fairly early on monarch+ difficulties, because if you don't get it early you're going to be fighting warriors vs archers (which can be managed but isn't easy). That is unless you have a really close by copper or horse source.

Religion is a very iffy thing in my book.

Pros to grabbing a religion:
1) Happiness boost in your cities. This is a huge help if you don't have happy resources around or your only happy resources require calendar/monarchy. Cities can also build temples for a second happiness boost. So a religion is basically +2 happiness in your cities.
2) Can build the shrine.
3) Organized religion gives a boost to building production.
4) If you're good you can convert the AI to your religion and get not only an income boost but a diplomacy boost.

Cons to grabbing a religion:
1) Having to spend time researching religious techs when you could be researching tile improvement techs, including bronze working for a chopping jumpstart. You will also get archery much later so barbs will be more of a problem.
2) Organized religion has a high upkeep which can cripple your research rate, especially if you're building mostly military/settlers in the early game anyway. Not to mention you have to spend even more turns researching it when research is probably better spent elsewhere.
3) If your neighbor civs found other religions then they will hate you and most likely declare war on you at some point during the game. Whereas if you didn't found one you could pick and choose a religion that spreads to you later in the game and give you a diplomacy boost with the civ(s) you want it with.
4) You could be beat to all the religions and pretty much ruin your game (it will drastically set you back anyway depending on how many religious techs you tried to research early). This is unlikely if you start with mysticism tech but still possible.

So it is a tough decision to make. If you don't start with mysticism on monarch+ difficulty it's pretty clear that you don't want to bother going for a religion. If you do start with mysticism it becomes a tough decision, with going either way being a viable strat. Likely if you're planning to play a military game then you won't need a religion as you can capture someone else's. But if you're going for a peaceful game and you don't have a lot of happy resources around then you probably want it. Also I imagine if you're playing on really high difficulties like immortal/deity it's probably never good to grab one.

I did look at your save. Your start position isn't a great one (except for your capital city). Desert to the south and jungle to the north with not much good land in between. There are quite a few happy resources around. I would probably avoid a religion, but that's just me. Others value religion a lot more than I do.

 

[incubuspawn]

Escorts for the settlers are a must. And some troops to watch over the workers. I'm talking about my cities being raized by barbarian axemen and Archers.

What should I go for first? Archery or bronze working? Take time to snuffle a religion or no?

archery, it does not require any resouces for the unit. And I think the best religious finding tech is codes of law. Since that tech is universialy needed anyway. May be hard to get on harder than prince though, so maybe theology. This way you still have the normal game start with religion a second step.

 

[anton_z1]

Yeah archery is actually an important tech to get fairly early on monarch+ difficulties, because if you don't get it early you're going to be fighting warriors vs archers (which can be managed but isn't easy). That is unless you have a really close by copper or horse source.

Religion is a very iffy thing in my book.

Pros to grabbing a religion:
1) Happiness boost in your cities. This is a huge help if you don't have happy resources around or your only happy resources require calendar/monarchy. Cities can also build temples for a second happiness boost. So a religion is basically +2 happiness in your cities.
2) Can build the shrine.
3) Organized religion gives a boost to building production.
4) If you're good you can convert the AI to your religion and get not only an income boost but a diplomacy boost.

Cons to grabbing a religion:
1) Having to spend time researching religious techs when you could be researching tile improvement techs, including bronze working for a chopping jumpstart. You will also get archery much later so barbs will be more of a problem.
2) Organized religion has a high upkeep which can cripple your research rate, especially if you're building mostly military/settlers in the early game anyway. Not to mention you have to spend even more turns researching it when research is probably better spent elsewhere.
3) If your neighbor civs found other religions then they will hate you and most likely declare war on you at some point during the game. Whereas if you didn't found one you could pick and choose a religion that spreads to you later in the game and give you a diplomacy boost with the civ(s) you want it with.
4) You could be beat to all the religions and pretty much ruin your game (it will drastically set you back anyway depending on how many religious techs you tried to research early). This is unlikely if you start with mysticism tech but still possible.

So it is a tough decision to make. If you don't start with mysticism on monarch+ difficulty it's pretty clear that you don't want to bother going for a religion. If you do start with mysticism it becomes a tough decision, with going either way being a viable strat. Likely if you're planning to play a military game then you won't need a religion as you can capture someone else's. But if you're going for a peaceful game and you don't have a lot of happy resources around then you probably want it. Also I imagine if you're playing on really high difficulties like immortal/deity it's probably never good to grab one.

I did look at your save. Your start position isn't a great one (except for your capital city). Desert to the south and jungle to the north with not much good land in between. There are quite a few happy resources around. I would probably avoid a religion, but that's just me. Others value religion a lot more than I do.

Several things to add if you want to start a religion.


1) One important thing about religion is where you start. If you are surrounded (3-4) civs (on a standart Map) and you can get open borders with them religion is a way to go. Once several of them would convert to your religion, the other one would be less happy to get another one.

2) Having stone or marble as a ressource is a good way to go to religion.

3) You are not financial.

However

-1) if only 1 or 2 ennemies are close to you, religion is a problem. In my emperor game Ghandi got stuck in a corner with his hinouhism and everybody hates him.

If you do not have 1,2,3. concentrate on bronse working instead.

In your particular case i would go bronse working. Your city is located in a GODLIKE place full with production and happiness. Concentrate on the military and expand. You should choose Judaism or confuscianism as you religion.

 

[Si_Lurker]

The pros of founding Religion refuted
1: You still get happiness, without having founded religion, you can merely convert to one and have it spread naturally or by missionaries
2: You can just conquer holy city and build the shrine (or it might be there)
3: Organized religion gives boost to cities with religion, you don't have to found one for this, merely spread it to your cities
4: You can convert to AI's religion for relationship boost.

While others are focusing on religion, you can research bronze working (chop to get 2-4 cities up and with basic infrastructure), worker techs, pottery (cottages), metal casing (have your cities build granary, forges, barracks, maybe aqueducts).

A city with basic infrastructure involves about following build queue:
worker, granary, barracks/forge, forge/barracks, aqueduct, lighthouse

When you have 2-4 highly productive and rich cities, you can churn out military to conquer nearest neighbour and build wonders.

 

[Shillen]

1: You still get happiness, without having founded religion, you can merely convert to one and have it spread naturally or by missionaries
2: You can just conquer holy city and build the shrine (or it might be there)
3: Organized religion gives boost to cities with religion, you don't have to found one for this, merely spread it to your cities
4: You can convert to AI's religion for relationship boost.

When you really need the happiness boost/organized religion/income boost is very early in the game, long before the AI bothers giving you one and long before you can capture a holy city (unless you're lucky and there's one right next door to you).

 

[dh_epic]

Monarch is the first level where I had to be deliberate about my strategy.

At prince, you could still try to found two religions, build three wonders, make it to currency to sustain your huge number of cities by the time you reach the classical age.

At monarch, I had to say -- will I found a religion and spread it to make new allies, or expand lots of cities and wait for religion come to me? If I'm going to build one wonder, which one will it be?

One of the biggest things I had to do at monarch is put together a solid military early on. You can't get by with a thin force anymore. You need a big enough force so the AI won't pick on you for being weak, and so you'll be able to hold off barbarians.

 

[RULEROFALL]

You Have No Wheel
You Have No Iron
How Do You Chop Forest??
Your Workers Have Nothing To Do For 35 Of So Turns
Your Warriars Are Waiting For Lions
You Are Hooped"""

 

[rrhal]

So I played this out for a while. I took time to get one religion. Then I went straight for Bronse then wheel and archery. I survived the barbarians in good shape.

I'm falling behind on tech front. I managed to stay ahead of the Romans for a while but I'm starting to suck hind tit.

 

[remconius]

This is my first game at Monarch level but it sure is fun. I did restart a few times to try things out and getting up to speed with this difficulty level. Tried Worker first with bronze working, settler first. In my current game I focused on Buddhism, with max trade (from water) and got it. Then I researched some improvement techs. Meanwhile I built some warriors to deal with early barbs. Then a worker and settler. Followed by some archers and axemen. Its important to get those early on, I found, to deal with Barbarians but does provide some nicely promoted units. And I noticed the AI has to deal with Barbarians too so that levels things.

After found three cities (one north and one south) I started building missionaries to convince both Julius and Kublai that Buddhism is the only way. I got a great prophet (specialist priest allowed by a temple) and built the shrine. As the AI had lots of cities, which I converted as they expanded, they paid for most of my costs. They turned in to strategic and useful allies.

After a while Haspetut wanders by and being Jewish, doesn’t like me much. After a while she declares war on me and send a small force of a few units. I tried to get my friends to join the fight but despite not liking Haspetut they refused. I focused on getting some advanced techs and once I got construction I used that to have them gang up on the Egyptians. Now I am in a very nice position. Mongols and Romans are forming a barrier from Northwest to Southeast, shielding me from the Egyptians. Meanwhile they are fighting their ménage-a-trois which undoubtedly hampers their economy and will cost them quite a lot of improvements etc.

After a while I declare peace with Haspetut, but they continue to fight. She even offers me 1250 gold for a tech she needs, sending my science is back at 90%. Meanwhile Chinese are coming by who have almost double my points (2000 vs my 1200). But I am at peace and now trying to focus on science and trying to catch up with the Chinese by expanding my 7 cities to 20+ powerhouses, which will be the basis to go to war later and wipe one of my friends and/or Hatty of the continent. I hope the Egyptians conquer their way to me so I don’t have to take on my friends.

I have been able to land quite a few wonders which pleases me a lot, near impossible in civ 3. Also I used three great scientists to found academies in my first three cities, which helps science a lot. Used two leaders for a golden age. One prophet for a shrine and used an artist to get Music in one turn. I also used a great engineer to wonder, forget which.

All in all it is a very fun game. Not sure if I can win though. I have to deal with the Chinese sooner or later, either outbuilding them or by attacking them.

 

[parachute4u]

Madrid has much food, and marble nearby. Let's see, how this one plays out...

Madrid builds 1 warrior starts a barracks and grows to size 3. At size 3 it starts a worker, the warriors (both of them) are scouting. After the worker is finished, I continue to produce barracks with max shields while still growing slowly. Worker is improving the corn and the marble. Build another warrior to protect the worker (grow the city to size 4) and start a settler. When the settler finishes build another warrior and start the parthenon.

In 1840 Madrid founds judaism (was using the water tile of the like during settler production to get 2 extra commerce)

Looks good so far.


Research plan: Wheel, agriculture, masonry (there is marble), polytheism (for parthenon (because of marble)), monotheism (founds judaism), animal farming(pigs), mining, bronze working(for defense against barbarians), priesthood (for oracle(because of the marble)), iron working (for attack against the barbarians), horseback riding/or maybe writing cause there is no horses in sight.


In 1200 BC Madrid has to build an extra warrior because of three barbarian archers. One archer gets killed, so there is 2 left.

In 1020 BC the pig farm gets pillaged, 1000 BC the barb archer dies (another one shows up in the east) and in
975 BC the parthenon finishes. Madrid starts a warrior and waits for priesthood to arrive to build the oracle.

In 450 BC the warriors in madrid have killed quite a number of barbarians, who are flooding towards madrid constantly.

second town is to about to be founded here (there is corn, too SE of that dot.)

In 425 BC Mahavira (Great Prophet is born)
I think, Spain is in pretty good shape:

I like the game very much so far, but I cannot continue because a large map is a major pain to play on my machine.
The plan I had in mind was, building some wonders to get some great people, while founding cities in safe places to be able to research everything needed to attack.

Don't know what to do with a prophet in a monarch game. On prince I would use him to get some tech, but on monarch it may be better to merge him, to get some extra production. The next phase of the game should be military expansion I think. There is (one?) barbarian city to the north. They were sending archers and warriors every turn since 1160 BC.

that's the save, if you want to take a look at it.

parachute

 

[remconius]

Played a bit more last night and yes I got my butt handed to me.

I was picking up the pace developing my 7 cities to the max. They were true powerhouses but I only managed to be in the middle. Chinese were almighty, 60% more points, then Frederick and Mansa Musa. I was about level with Haspetut, kublai Khan, a few others. Romans were the only one clearly behind. As I fortify my position, building grenadiers to invade some barbarians towns and eventually Julius, I get the message: Mansa Musa has built the Apollo program DAMN! 1795 and I am nowhere near. As he is building his spaceship he finds the time to mount an invasion force and Suddenly lands on my border with SAM infantry and battleships. Elsewhere on the planet I see his Mechanized Infantry parading. There is no way I am going to win this game now.... :-(

What I learnt:
Dont be too good friends with your neighbours, because you'll need their land sooner or later.
Play a firm aggressive game. Dont be too good friends, when the time comes expand or war to grab more land. You need more specialized cities to outproduce the AI. Staying small will not work in the long run.
Horses (or elephants) are vital, especially for Conquistadores. But even chariots, horse archers, Knights and cavalry are powerful.

 

[Astax]

Heh, Monarch...

 

[remconius]

And now try a standard map. Even Deity is beatable in Duel maps.

 

[Astax]

There's no point on standard map. The AI cheats so much only way you'll keep up with him till you meet is via totaly carebearing. Im just not that kind of a person.

 

[remconius]

Problem with AIs is that they are too dumb.

Once you figure out how to play civ IV you can always win on equal terms (Noble). Half way through the game you have double the score on the number two there's no challenge. Im just not that kind of person.

So I like the challenge of having an AI that can outbuild and outtech me. I'll try to beat him with intelligent diplomacy, smarter play and superior tactics.

For me the choice is easy wins on equal terms or a challenge with the AI "cheating".

I'll take the challenge anyday, but that's just me.

 

[lances]

What a great game!

RR, no wonder you're having problems with barbs - you're at the SW corner of the continent, with a vast jungle between you and the AI's. That jungle's what's breeding them. I'm up to about a thousand AD or so, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I suspect the map size is going to be a problem. It's already slowing my poor laptop down.

BUT, I've got 6 good cities going, built several nice wonders, and I founded Hinduism, and Egypt and Rome are in love with me. Ghengis, on the other hand... Ghengis launced a massive Kercheck (or whatever they're called) attack around 700 AD. He caught me with my pants down, and ground my cities into dust. (I almost cried.)

I reloaded - yes, I cheated - and even knowing the attack was coming, it was touch and go. Fortunately, spears are a most excellent defense against those Kerchecks, and even though he was pumping them out at about 2-1, I was - barely - able to hold them off. Eventually I was able to bribe both Caesar and that Egyptian chick into the war with me.

Between the three of us, the tables turned, and I sent my spears into HIS territory. At that point, he was ready for peace, but I wasn't. I spent a good 15 turns or so molesting his land, before I finally settled for all his gold.

I'm top dog on my island, but I have no idea what's going on anywhere else. I haven't been able to do anything but fight this war for a while now. Hopefully the four of us aren't at the absolute bottom of the pack. The war was absolutely devastating for the Romans (I'm not sure Caesar has a single improved tile left), and it hurt the Mongols pretty bad too. I'm not sure how it affected Egypt, but it couldn't have helped.

If somebody would post some hints on adding screenshots, I'd appreciate it.