Getting rid of forts

[mo123567]

I actually started another thread because I was having issues with forts in my game but after thinking about it I can't see a reason why they shouldn't be removed completely.

The fact that units can fortify and workers can also build forts seems almost redundant. The AI builds a bunch of them but rarely in the proper place. My idea is to remove forts completely and increase the unit fortification bonus over time when inside your own borders.

I'm not sure if this would be difficult to do but if not I can't imagine why not. Please let me know what you think and if anyone has any reasons why forts should be in the game. Maybe they will change it if enough people think it's a good idea.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I agree that forts are completely useless as they are. Add a zone of control for them, or drop them. That's what I think.

 

[MacMoney]

Does the defense bonus for cities that have a fort in their zone of control actually work? I haven't really checked, but I usually make sure to pillage away any forts that the city being attacked has nearby.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

they need to be able to be built via a spell. that way workers won't spam them around, and they won't even be able to build them on raw mana nodes. then you can make them ActasCities again, collecting resources etc. zone of control would be nice as well, obviously

 

[Marnok]

they need to be able to be built via a spell. that way workers won't spam them around, and they won't even be able to build them on raw mana nodes. then you can make them ActasCities again, collecting resources etc. zone of control would be nice as well, obviously

I agree! Also, I don't like automatic upgrade, it should be something you have to put effort into. Worker, supplies, something!

I was going to test in my modmod, a concept of special supplies - send a worker to a quarry, cast a spell for X turns and get "ample stone" promotion which could be used to speed production or used to upgrade a fort. Needs some AI work though, which will mean playing in the SDK (but I'm in there now anyway because I can't initunit without a crash, I may have mentioned it)

 

[Karnja]

i very much agree with the OP. and instead of spaming useless forts, the AI might built other stuff, like farms, or cottages etc which is a way more usefull. i also like the idea to give units increased fortification bonus inside borders. that would make conquering cities even more challanging and exciting.

 

[Jabie]

Players can build forts in choke points. Hills + Guerilla + Fort plus a couple of Archers can be fairly hard obstacle to overcome. In MP Forts offer additional tactical options and add to gameplay. Forts, Castles and Citadels are also make "source material" for scenarios and losing them would hurt flavour, as well as deny an option to players.

The problem isn't with the capacity to build forts but with the AIs use of them. In the long term, the AI needs to be reprogrammed to understand how to use them. Possible short term fixes might be:

* Offer some kind of bonus for Forts (Feudalism giving a gold bonus, Miltary State Civic could provide +1 Hammer per Fort), so that the economic ramifications of not building cottages / farms are lessened.
* Disable them or ship them off to a spell. It might be good to update the map scripts to create a few Forts in this instance.
* Move them down the priority list for the AI or create a simple rule that the AI can understand (e.g. Do not build a fort if there is currently one within X plots of this location)
* Move the construction of Forts to a later game tech such as Engineering, so that the option is unavailable to the AI for longer.

 

[Ranos]

I think somebody posted it in the other thread, but forts give a defensive bonus to surrounding tiles to whichever civ controls them. I think the AI just needs to be taught to keep units fortified in the forts and then they are no longer useless.

 

[PanzerWolf]

I think somebody posted it in the other thread, but forts give a defensive bonus to surrounding tiles to whichever civ controls them. I think the AI just needs to be taught to keep units fortified in the forts and then they are no longer useless.

Agree; it's better to teach the AI how to use them properly. If zone of control is possible, that could be an option to extend the usage of forts. And eventhough this is a fantasy game... come on, forts built by spells? It's good, old hand crafting that builds them, not magic. And if it is magic, that should need at least lvl 3 Earth, maybe more.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

And eventhough this is a fantasy game... come on, forts built by spells? It's good, old hand crafting that builds them, not magic. And if it is magic, that should need at least lvl 3 Earth, maybe more.

forts built with the same mechanic that spells use. so that workers don't spam them around. obviously this "spell" would be given to the workers. it's not magic, they're still building it.

 

[thapagan]

Man the number of time I have seen bad fort building by the Ai.
Let's build a fort on my one square that has access to water, instead of the hill next to it.
Let's build a fort over this spiffy resourse.

Let's move forts further up the tech tree, Maybe to one of the military techs?
Let's tighten the rules for forts.
Maybe....

 

[Grantor]

forts built with the same mechanic that spells use. so that workers don't spam them around.

While irritating, I don't think that one fort per fat cross is "spamming". The AI doesn't place more than one per city unless filling empty spaces, like desert.

I think that the problem is a bit overstated, personally.

 

[mo123567]

I keep hearing about zone of control but no one seems to know exactly how it works right now in FFH and if it is even in the game. I think I remember seeing that it was taken out due to some issue it was causing. Can someone who knows exactly how it works right now let us know?

 

[westamastaflash]

Forts should offer cultural expansion!

 

[mo123567]

As far as spaming, I have had workers building multiple forts within my cities cross. Even on non-desert tiles. It seems like the more I go in and cancel fort building workers, the more they want to build elsewhere.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I keep hearing about zone of control but no one seems to know exactly how it works right now in FFH and if it is even in the game. I think I remember seeing that it was taken out due to some issue it was causing. Can someone who knows exactly how it works right now let us know?

Zone of Control is something that existed in a previous version of Civ, but taken out in IV. When ZoC is enabled, enemy units cannot pass through a square adjacent to your fort, if you have a unit in the fort. They must kill your unit first.

Some people have argued that this would kill the AI, but I think it is worth trying. As it is now, forts are nearly useless for the player, despite the fact citadels give some defensive boost to adjucent squares. The enemy can always get around your units.

 

[zup]

You can use citadels for healing and attack the enemy stack from there. A properly defended citadel will not fall any time soon. They also work great in mountain passes.

 

[WarKirby]

Forts are a very bad thing for the AI. I always use their own forts agaisnt them, since they have a habit of putting them, right next to cities and leaving them unguarded

 

[psychoak]

My only irritation with forts right now is the lack of ability to upgrade them reasonably. It's a lot of lost production to get that fort up to a citadel, and then there are those wonderful tiles you're not working. Building in a seriously crappy spot between a bunch of mountains just so I can use a fort to block that choke point is a waste. I might as well build the actual city at the choke point, it's a better defense point anyway. It's a little much for what they give as an effectively dead tile, but they aren't useless.

A solitary citadel with a desert barrier and road access to the adjacent tiles is the ultimate strike platform. You slow the crap out of your enemy making them move onto a desert tile from no roads, and can easily take the first strike with your 90% defense from the 3+ move units they have.

 

[Jules.lt]

Forts should upgrade by having workers spend time to upgrade them. It makes sense and it gives something to do to all those idle workers.

That's assuming that some kind of ZoC or walls are implemented to make them useful, of course.