Getting Started

[Txurce]

I've updated again with a new version up. Version x9.12dev contains primarily changes to terrain, detailed in the CD and TI readmes.

Influence balance is something I've been working on from time to time. I've never really been happy with the -10% or so effect 3/3 had. Keep in mind these dev versions are just my current stuff dropped into a zip file, so it's not always going to be working properly.

The two variables are in the diplomacy mod's BD - General.xml file, halfway down. If you could, please test them at various combinations like 3/3, 10/9, and 5/4, and tell me how that impacts your current game. My game's at turn 300 and influence is still alright, so it sounds like you're in a later era.

Will do. But I was at around 500 AD when I stopped - nowhere near turn 300. Also, the influence purchase decreased as the game went along. I didn't notice the decrease at first, because it wasn't as severe as 0-5 influence.

 

[Thalassicus]

Ahh might have been using an earlier version where I was experimenting what would happen with ratio like 1/3 or 3/1!

Influence purchasing does decrease as the game progresses, it's hardcoded.

 

[Txurce]

Ahh might have been using an earlier version where I was experimenting what would happen with ratio like 1/3 or 3/1!

Influence purchasing does decrease as the game progresses, it's hardcoded.

It was 3/1. I put it back to 3/3 until I recover a bit from the shock - and will then experiment.

 

[SSgtDuke]

SR use
Only played one game with the mod so far, but already a big fan and have been trying to follow the threads a bit. First a comment on the SR use issue. I like that SRs are rare and not guaranteed for everyone. In my last game I had no access to iron for the first half of the game until I stumbled upon a faraway CS that had it. This drastically changed my game and made it all the more interesting. I think it was mentioned that if buildings also used SRs then they'd be much more available to everyone. I wouldn't want to see this since it would make games more predictable and less interesting.

Trade routes through open borders
And now a few general issues that I don't see a specific thread for. It seems that you can't have national trade routes that go through another civ's land, even if you have open borders with them. I had only one possible route to a city and a civ that I had open borders with plopped down a new city next to the path and it broke my trade route. If our borders are open, shouldn't I be able to send my trade caravans through them?

Trade routes with friendly civs and CSs
Currently I have virtually no incentive to declare friendship or open borders with other civs (unless I need to move through their territory, which is pretty rare). If we're friends with open borders and roads/harbours between our cities, wouldn't we likely be trading? I'd be much more interested in friendship and open borders if there was some tangible benefit to it, and I think this would generally make diplomacy more interesting and meaningful. I'm less likely to back stab a civ who is giving me a nice chunk of trade gold each turn.

The value of aluminum (vs. oil)
Back to a relatively old topic, I've flip-flopped around as people have argued for removing aluminum or what it, oil, and uranium should be used for. Currently I can see oil replacing aluminum as the SR for virtually all military units. But I would like to see the possibility for someone who doesn't have sufficient oil but does have aluminum to have a real chance of going for a space victory. I was also thinking that aluminum could somehow help in defending themselves against the conquest civs that would inevitably attack as they pulled ahead in the space race, but I'm not sure how that would fit in.

 

[orangecape]

Thal, your musings about SR uses in economies instead of militaries is actually right along the lines of what I did in my mod. I actually love the choice of using SR for either warfare or peace, which to my mind uranium actually does a reasonable (though not great) job of. There is an attempt to use this for coal in vanilla but since the ironclad is a sack of junk generally that doesn't work.

If you want coal to be used in this way maybe make coal a requirement for both destroyers and ironclads? Most likely the ironclad would still find no use unless it could enter ocean tiles but it would force people getting into the industrial age to choose either production or ocean dominance, and only both if you happen to have a ton of coal.

As for horses and iron I found that both the forge and the stables didn't work in vanilla. The stables wasn't even worth building due to how fast it would become useless and your mod addresses this to some extent - but stables are still not exciting. Forges are total junk in their era and eventually become decent much later. Both of them are great candidates for adding SR requirements to. I made them both add 4 production to their tile type (much like your stable changes, but moreso) and eliminated their % bonuses. Then I made them use 2 horse/2 iron respectively. I didn't mess with distribution at all and suddenly I used all my horses and iron and when I was short I faced a real choice of making a powerful production building or two powerful units. This does make a lot more production available in the earlier game, which I find good since it helps get expensive things like museums and such built in reasonable time, but in the industrial era and later it would get out of hand so I ended up reducing the % bonus on RR a ton to keep late game production in check. In short, having a dual purpose SR that can be used for several things works and there are of course many ways to do it, this is just one idea. This also meant that city placement was very important (with regards to SR) even if you already have sufficient SR for military purposes.

I completely agree with your direction regarding oil vs. aluminum. Getting rid of aluminum or making it only apply to space parts or something seems really sensible, it does not work at all well in vanilla.

 

[Txurce]

SR use
Only played one game with the mod so far, but already a big fan and have been trying to follow the threads a bit. First a comment on the SR use issue. I like that SRs are rare and not guaranteed for everyone. In my last game I had no access to iron for the first half of the game until I stumbled upon a faraway CS that had it. This drastically changed my game and made it all the more interesting. I think it was mentioned that if buildings also used SRs then they'd be much more available to everyone. I wouldn't want to see this since it would make games more predictable and less interesting.

Trade routes through open borders
And now a few general issues that I don't see a specific thread for. It seems that you can't have national trade routes that go through another civ's land, even if you have open borders with them. I had only one possible route to a city and a civ that I had open borders with plopped down a new city next to the path and it broke my trade route. If our borders are open, shouldn't I be able to send my trade caravans through them?

Trade routes with friendly civs and CSs
Currently I have virtually no incentive to declare friendship or open borders with other civs (unless I need to move through their territory, which is pretty rare). If we're friends with open borders and roads/harbours between our cities, wouldn't we likely be trading? I'd be much more interested in friendship and open borders if there was some tangible benefit to it, and I think this would generally make diplomacy more interesting and meaningful. I'm less likely to back stab a civ who is giving me a nice chunk of trade gold each turn.

The value of aluminum (vs. oil)
Back to a relatively old topic, I've flip-flopped around as people have argued for removing aluminum or what it, oil, and uranium should be used for. Currently I can see oil replacing aluminum as the SR for virtually all military units. But I would like to see the possibility for someone who doesn't have sufficient oil but does have aluminum to have a real chance of going for a space victory. I was also thinking that aluminum could somehow help in defending themselves against the conquest civs that would inevitably attack as they pulled ahead in the space race, but I'm not sure how that would fit in.

As far as I know, aluminum is still needed for spaceship factories and a few other things. What would be problematic is making it essential for a builder aiming for space, since he may well not have it.

And yes, there's not a lot of use for DoF's. I think the negatives outweigh the positives.

 

[Txurce]

Thal, your musings about SR uses in economies instead of militaries is actually right along the lines of what I did in my mod. I actually love the choice of using SR for either warfare or peace, which to my mind uranium actually does a reasonable (though not great) job of. There is an attempt to use this for coal in vanilla but since the ironclad is a sack of junk generally that doesn't work.

If you want coal to be used in this way maybe make coal a requirement for both destroyers and ironclads? Most likely the ironclad would still find no use unless it could enter ocean tiles but it would force people getting into the industrial age to choose either production or ocean dominance, and only both if you happen to have a ton of coal.

As for horses and iron I found that both the forge and the stables didn't work in vanilla. The stables wasn't even worth building due to how fast it would become useless and your mod addresses this to some extent - but stables are still not exciting. Forges are total junk in their era and eventually become decent much later. Both of them are great candidates for adding SR requirements to. I made them both add 4 production to their tile type (much like your stable changes, but moreso) and eliminated their % bonuses. Then I made them use 2 horse/2 iron respectively. I didn't mess with distribution at all and suddenly I used all my horses and iron and when I was short I faced a real choice of making a powerful production building or two powerful units. This does make a lot more production available in the earlier game, which I find good since it helps get expensive things like museums and such built in reasonable time, but in the industrial era and later it would get out of hand so I ended up reducing the % bonus on RR a ton to keep late game production in check. In short, having a dual purpose SR that can be used for several things works and there are of course many ways to do it, this is just one idea. This also meant that city placement was very important (with regards to SR) even if you already have sufficient SR for military purposes.

I completely agree with your direction regarding oil vs. aluminum. Getting rid of aluminum or making it only apply to space parts or something seems really sensible, it does not work at all well in vanilla.

I like both these ideas. A coal-powered destroyer really would enhance choice.

 

[Ahriman]

What would be problematic is making it essential for a builder aiming for space, since he may well not have it.

Then he can trade for it.
I prefer making uranium the only combined military and economy resource though. It doesn't have the same problems as the others, as its so late, and because you're typically only going to pursue either the space-race techline or a military techline. So you won't normally for example be able to build both a spaceship factory and a GDR at once.
Uranium should be for: nukes, nuclear sub, *maybe* missile cruiser, GDR, spaceship factory, power plant.
And then buff the spaceship factory slightly if needed.

I find a DoF very useful. I have never had a problem maintaining a good close ally through a game, as long as I'm actually a good and semi-equal friend to them (donate when they ask for it, join wars when they ask for it, don't steal their CSs, don't become a big threat to them, etc.).

I think we are far better leaving coal as a just-for-factories resource.
The destroyer is the basic naval unit of the industrial and modern eras; it should remain resourceless, like the mech-inf, and riflemen, and frigates, and triremes.
I think a coal-powered destroyer would reduce choice; why should you have to choose between industrialization or any navy at all?

 

[Txurce]

Then he can trade for it.

I find a DoF very useful. I have never had a problem maintaining a good close ally through a game, as long as I'm actually a good and semi-equal friend to them (donate when they ask for it, join wars when they ask for it, don't steal their CSs, don't become a big threat to them, etc.).

1. Easier said than done when referring to aluminum, as I was.

2. DoF's are much more complicated than that. They give no more benefits than "friendly" relations with regard to trade or bribes. But they have the potential for souring OTHER relations, often simply because someone else doesn't like your Friend.

 

[Ahriman]

Easier said than done when referring to aluminum, as I was.

Then you can go without.
Resources are meaningful precisely because you don't always have them.
I'd prefer to split aluminium between oil and uranium (so spaceship factory requires uranium), but then the same issue still goes with uranium; you're not going to do space-race as fast without uranium, so either get some, or deal with the fact that you won't get it as fast.

If you were planning for a space race victory and don't get any uranium, then cool, now you have to adapt, either by going for a different victory route, acquiring some uranium through trade or war, or going without and accepting that your space race is slightly slower.

But its not like you can't do space-race without spaceship factories. Its not that big a bonus, especially after factory and railroad and maybe a solar plant and windmill. If you have +150% modifiers and get an extra +50%, you're only increasing the space race speed by 1/5.

Even if we boosted the SS factory to +100%, it could still only be a 40% increase in gross build speed, because it only modifies base production.

I don't think anyone is talking about having the resource literally be consumed for making the SS part, just for the factory that boosts it along.

2. DoF's are much more complicated than that. They give no more benefits than "friendly" relations with regard to trade or bribes

I have found with a DoF I can get a steady, reliable friend who stays my friend - even more so if its a triangle. I don't find that just trading resources with them does the same thing at all. They seem to be far more likely to turn on you if they haven't signed a DoF.

But its hard to tell, because the diplomacy engine is *still* frustratingly opaque.

 

[Txurce]

Then you can go without.
Resources are meaningful precisely because you don't always have them.
I'd prefer to split aluminium between oil and uranium (so spaceship factory requires uranium), but then the same issue still goes with uranium; you're not going to do space-race as fast without uranium, so either get some, or deal with the fact that you won't get it as fast.

If you were planning for a space race victory and don't get any uranium, then cool, now you have to adapt, either by going for a different victory route, acquiring some uranium through trade or war, or going without and accepting that your space race is slightly slower.

But its not like you can't do space-race without spaceship factories. Its not that big a bonus, especially after factory and railroad and maybe a solar plant and windmill. If you have +150% modifiers and get an extra +50%, you're only increasing the space race speed by 1/5.

Even if we boosted the SS factory to +100%, it could still only be a 40% increase in gross build speed, because it only modifies base production.

I don't think anyone is talking about having the resource literally be consumed for making the SS part, just for the factory that boosts it along.


I have found with a DoF I can get a steady, reliable friend who stays my friend - even more so if its a triangle. I don't find that just trading resources with them does the same thing at all. They seem to be far more likely to turn on you if they haven't signed a DoF.

But its hard to tell, because the diplomacy engine is *still* frustratingly opaque.

We are almost always on the same page in preferring relative resource scarcity. When I said trading is easier said than done with aluminum, I meant just that, and nothing more. And I agree that spaceship factories usually matter in terms of shortening the time it takes to win the race.

I've been playing with the WWGD mod for a while now, which calms down the AI. It's quite possible that as a result I'm getting a lot of the same benefits without signing a DoF. But my main problem with a DoF isn't the reliability of the signator - it's the frequent negative consequences that come from being disliked because my Friend is disliked. I have seen this happen on numerous occasions, and it definitely affects trade, as well as general relations in the more aggressive late game.

 

[Sneaks]

We are almost always on the same page in preferring relative resource scarcity. When I said trading is easier said than done with aluminum, I meant just that, and nothing more. And I agree that spaceship factories usually matter in terms of shortening the time it takes to win the race.

I've been playing with the WWGD mod for a while now, which calms down the AI. It's quite possible that as a result I'm getting a lot of the same benefits without signing a DoF. But my main problem with a DoF isn't the reliability of the signator - it's the frequent negative consequences that come from being disliked because my Friend is disliked. I have seen this happen on numerous occasions, and it definitely affects trade, as well as general relations in the more aggressive late game.

The biggest gripe about DoFs which WWGD mods is the fact that if DoF friend denounces you, you take a massive global influence hit. Chances are that hit might put you in the negative with another Friend/Neutral, leading to them denouncing you, and so forth. Thus, the chain denouncements that tend to blindside the player.

The other issue with DoFs, and AI influence in general is that there are coded in several "ticking factors" that slowly degrade certain influence types with the player every turn.

For example:
You are DoF with Egypt.
You have a city sort of near Egypt.
This causes Egypt to gain a weak covet on your lands. He has 100 LandDispute points against you. This causes him to hit the LandDisputeWeak threshold and have a Weak Land opinion weight (Costing you 10 diplomacy points).
Every turn from there on out, he will tick on 18 more points of LandDispute. Once that total adds up to 230, he hits the LandDisputeStrong threshold. Egypt now has a Strong Land opinion of you (Costing you 20 diplomacy points).

This ticking will eventually lead to the 30 diplomacy point Fierce Land opinion.

In comparison, your DoF gives you -35 diplomacy points.

Assuming nothing else is going on between you two, that gives you a -5 point rating with Egypt.
If Egypt then asks you nicely for some of your lovely Gems, and you say no - BAM 15 point penalty. You now have a 10 diplo point score, and that denouncement is coming.

Here is where it gets really messed up: If Egypt denounces you before ending the DoF, you will take a 25 point hit with every other civ in the game.

As you can see, the diplomacy AI system in vanilla really does not handle well, and that DoF can end up really really hurting you down the road.

As many have said before, there is a whole lot that can negatively hurt relations, and very very little that can help in vanilla.

 

[LetMyPeopleGo]

Hello all,

I'm playing a bit with the different mods from Thalassicus, changing some, just for fun I'm not a modder.

I did very little reading about the fileinfo file, if someone can explain to me in two words, why some lines in the <Files>...</Files> section have the import="0" others have the import="1" and others without the 'import' at all.

All of those files are included in the <UpdateDatabase>.....</UpdateDatabase> sections so they are obviously loaded on game start so what is the purpose of the IMPORT= ?

Many thanks in advanced, and thanks for the nice mods.

 

[Polycrates]

I'm strongly opposed to the removal of aluminium; getting rid of one of only a handful of strategic resources is a huge change that I think really moves the mod significantly away from vanilla. I really think any possible options for rebalancing the resources that exist should be explored before doing something so major.

I haven't gotten up to the modern era in my current game, but I really think that cutting back on the units that use aluminium and seeing how that works is really worth further exploring before axing something so fundamental.

I also really oppose uranium becoming a "mainstream" resource. I think it really works in its current "niche" role. Nukes are insanely powerful in this version of the game, and I think they should remain special. GDRs aside (the game is likely to be essentially over by then), the nuclear tech tree is otherwise pretty much a dead end that only diverts from the other critical techs in the modern era. I think that's a design that works well, and I don't think nuclear plants alone are reason enough to go down that path (nor should they be); but more a consolation prize for someone who can nuke the world but doesn't. I'd like it to be rare, and I'd like it to remain something that gives me pause for thought when I see uranium in an enemy's territory. It's scary as hell, and it's worth going to war to deny it to someone; I think that's its main purpose - I think you can only dilute that if you give it all these other roles.

On the same note, I particularly think making nuclear submarines require uranium is a mistake (common sense aside). The one limitation of nukes is that they have a limited range and you know where they're potentially coming from. Nuclear subs and missile cruisers (and carriers) remove that limitation, so that your army and cities can be wiped out at a stroke from anywhere. That's very very powerful, and I think having two different resource requirements to pull this off is a very deliberate and sensible design choice.
Having nuclear subs require oil may not make sense, but you could always move them back to aluminium (oil already has carriers and missile cruisers as nuke-bearing options) or just call it "missile sub" or something.

 

[Pilotis]

Polycrates has my vote. I agree completely with his reasoning and conclusions.

 

[V. Soma]

Polycrates has my vote. I agree completely with his reasoning and conclusions.

also my vote

 

[VimesUK]

also my vote

+ 1, or would that be 2..?

Thal when you write...

These mods are motivated by a desire to increase the choices and interesting decision-making opportunities available to the player, while keeping the changes small and within the same fundamental framework and gameplay as vanilla Civ V

... one reason that I asked as to why you started to package "extra" mods within your development builds is that I saw a shift from what you had written and what I quoted above.
Maybe the scope of what you intend for this package of mods had now evolved somewhat and whilst I am quite new to trying them out I had started off using them as I assumed that the changes would be small and the gameplay would be that within the Vanilla Civ V framework. But then again I do realise that this very thread about the mods development is here to create discussion and throw out ideas.

Thanks very much for your incredible work with what you are doing with Civ V and please do not be offended with my scribblings as they are only meant to be constructive scribbles at the best

 

[Ahriman]

The biggest gripe about DoFs which WWGD mods is the fact that if DoF friend denounces you, you take a massive global influence hit.

I think this is appropriate.
There *needs* to be a diplomatic penalty for:
a) Trying to be "friends" with too many players. You should get punished for signing DoFs with more than 1 or 2 other civs.
b) Backstabbing your friends, or not being a good friend.

Now, its possible that its too easy for your DoF buddy to denounce you even if you *were* a good friend, and so there's room for tweaking there, but I think the basic system is important.

Otherwise, why would you not want to go around signing DoF with everyone on the planet you weren't about to invade?
We want to make very sure that its not too easy to keep at peace without having a strong military. You need to be worried about AIs attacking you throughout the game, and you shouldn't be able to use diplomacy alone to completely prevent that.

* * *
I still strongly support removing aluminium, or at least making it a rare special resource that is purely for the space race, not for military units. I think it is crucial that we move aluminium requirements away from modern armor and aircraft, and its dull on the hydro plant (and non-sensical).

Thats the only way to make oil matter.

I'm flexible on the nuclear sub, don't really care much.

One option would be:
a) Oil required for tank, modern armor, battleship, fighter, bomber, jet fighter, stealth bomber.
b) Rename Aluminium "Rare earths", or just keep the name. Make it very rare. Have it required only for the spaceship factory building. Increase the bonus of the spaceship factory to +100%.
c) Make uranium rare, have it required only for nukes, nuclear power plant, GDR.

 

[Txurce]

I think this is appropriate.
There *needs* to be a diplomatic penalty for:
a) Trying to be "friends" with too many players. You should get punished for signing DoFs with more than 1 or 2 other civs.
b) Backstabbing your friends, or not being a good friend.

Now, its possible that its too easy for your DoF buddy to denounce you even if you *were* a good friend, and so there's room for tweaking there, but I think the basic system is important.

Otherwise, why would you not want to go around signing DoF with everyone on the planet you weren't about to invade?
We want to make very sure that its not too easy to keep at peace without having a strong military. You need to be worried about AIs attacking you throughout the game, and you shouldn't be able to use diplomacy alone to completely prevent that.

* * *
I still strongly support removing aluminium, or at least making it a rare special resource that is purely for the space race, not for military units. I think it is crucial that we move aluminium requirements away from modern armor and aircraft, and its dull on the hydro plant (and non-sensical).

Thats the only way to make oil matter.

I'm flexible on the nuclear sub, don't really care much.

One option would be:
a) Oil required for tank, modern armor, battleship, fighter, bomber, jet fighter, stealth bomber.
b) Rename Aluminium "Rare earths", or just keep the name. Make it very rare. Have it required only for the spaceship factory building. Increase the bonus of the spaceship factory to +100%.
c) Make uranium rare, have it required only for nukes, nuclear power plant, GDR.

Again, my point on DoF's has nothing to do with a buddy denouncing you (although that's obviously bad) - it has to do with the hit you take if you have even just one DoF, and that Friend is denounced by someone else. You will now have worse relations with the denouncer. However, signing no DoF's, it's pretty easy to maintain relations as good as those that come with a DoF.

Agreed on all the reasons why oil making oil matter trumps arguments for keeping aluminum as significant as it is in vanilla. There are plenty of pro-oil arguments earlier in this thread as well, as we explored it pretty exhaustively.

 

[Ahriman]

Again, my point on DoF's has nothing to do with a buddy denouncing you (although that's obviously bad) - it has to do with the hit you take if you have even just one DoF, and that Friend is denounced by someone else. You will now have worse relations with the denouncer. However, signing no DoF's, it's pretty easy to maintain relations as good as those that come with a DoF.

Ok, I see what you mean, but I find that its far easier to maintain good relations with a DoF than without one. For example, with a DoF they don't seem to get pissed off if I conquer cities of a player who they're at war with. Without the DoF, they do.

Or so it seems.
But its hard to tell. We need to understand far more about precisely how diplomacy works.