Getting Started

[Sneaks]

I'm looking into using Tech Diffusion's code in a way to allow for players to get small gains to research for various techs their friends have and vice versa.

 

[Txurce]

Ok, I see what you mean, but I find that its far easier to maintain good relations with a DoF than without one. For example, with a DoF they don't seem to get pissed off if I conquer cities of a player who they're at war with. Without the DoF, they do.

Or so it seems.
But its hard to tell. We need to understand far more about precisely how diplomacy works.

I think I mentioned this before, but one reason why I'm having a similar experience to you - without using DoF's - may be that I am playing with the WWGD mod.

I have taken the "warmongering menace" hit, though, for 1) wiping out a civ (even though I took only two cities), and 2) starting two wars (including stealing a CS worker).

 

[Thalassicus]

getting rid of one of only a handful of strategic resources is a huge change

I do understand this viewpoint. The reason I feel it's not a big deal is that for these resources, it's just name change. Oil and aluminum are used homogeneously on their respective tiers: requirement paths are the same, deposit distribution is about the same, everything's basically identical but with a different name for the resource.

Doesn't mater much now though, I settled on your solution anyway, with aluminum as a niche resource for high-tech stuff.

 

[Thalassicus]

I uploaded a new beta version with the following primary changes:

• Military units now have approximately the same purchase cost modifier as tier 1 buildings (like barracks and walls).
• Puppet states contribute less culture and research to the central empire than normal cities. Tax revenue is unchanged.

 

[Txurce]

I uploaded a new beta version with the following primary changes:

• Military units now have approximately the same purchase cost modifier as tier 1 buildings (like barracks and walls).
• Puppet states contribute less culture and research to the central empire than normal cities (gold taxes are still as high as ever).

Great. Is the CS influence modifier somewhere more... reasonable?

 

[Thalassicus]

Should be.

Oh... and some feedback would really be useful if anyone has a game saved with a large puppeted empire... though more often than not new versions invalidate old savegames. Still, if this is possible:

1. Load the new version of the mods
2. Load your savegame
3. Make a note of your culture and research income
4. End your turn, check your new culture/research income

Posting these numbers and a sentence or two describing your ratio of puppets to normal cities would be tremendously helpful!

 

[Ahriman]

New version doesn't seem compatible with the old save I had. Sorry.

 

[Thalassicus]

No worries... that usually happens.

I updated again, this time experimenting with the unit maintenance formula. I think it should result in higher military costs starting around the early Industrial period. Maintance of each unit type is equal to /100, minimum of 1g, and I think rounding occurs after all units are added up.

It's hard to really know what impact this will have on overall income because I have no clue what vanilla's maintenance formula is, it's hidden to us.

----------
I had some errors in versions *.15-17 in the combat mod, should be fixed now in *.18

 

[Torvald]

Thal,

Thank you very much for creating the Balance mods; I've really enjoyed playing with them, and look forward to trying out the latest files this weekend.

I see that you've been experimenting with other mods to see which ones are compatible with yours, so I wanted to offer a little input about other mods I've tried and perhaps solicit some feedback from you.

Here are the other mods I've used to date in conjunction with your Balance mods, without seeing any obvious glitches. If you're aware of any potential conflicts with them, or beleive they might detract from the Balance mods, please let me know:

Active City Defense - v2
Beyond the Future - v1
Blue Mosque - v2
Courthouse Tweak - v3
Globe Theater - v1
Hukkak's Wonders Pack - v2
Improved Notifications - v6
Moai Statues National Wonder - v1
No XP Cap from Barbarians - v1
Red Cross National Wonder - v1
Resource Discovery - v1
Satellites Reveal Map - v2
Scientific Buildings - v4
Wall Street National Wonder - v1

I'm also thinking of using the following two other mods - any comments about their compatibilty with the Balance mods?

Technology Enhanced Improvements - v3
Technology Enhanced Improvements - Incas - v2

Thanks.

 

[Polycrates]

No worries... that usually happens.

I updated again, this time experimenting with the unit maintenance formula. I think it should result in higher military costs starting around the early Industrial period. Maintance of each unit type is equal to /100, minimum of 1g, and I think rounding occurs after all units are added up.

It's hard to really know what impact this will have on overall income because I have no clue what vanilla's maintenance formula is, it's hidden to us.

Nice!

One query: I don't know the formula, but given that units cost more hammers on epic and marathon, wouldn't this mean they cost considerably more maintenance at slower speeds (and the converse for quick?)

 

[Thalassicus]

@Torvald

• Active City Defense - v2 : No need for this, the combat mod takes care of city defense/assault
• Beyond the Future - v1
• Blue Mosque - v2
• Courthouse Tweak - v3 : Not needed
• Globe Theater - v1
• Hukkak's Wonders Pack - v2
• Improved Notifications - v6 : Probably alright
• Moai Statues National Wonder - v1 : Probably alright
• No XP Cap from Barbarians - v1 : Should be fine
• Red Cross National Wonder - v1 : Probably alright
• Resource Discovery - v1 : Probably alright
• Satellites Reveal Map - v2 : Not needed, added to base game in a recent patch
• Scientific Buildings - v4
• Wall Street National Wonder - v1 : Probably alright
• Technology Enhanced Improvements - v3 : Basically same as what I'm doing in the latest version of the Terrain Improvements mod, so no need.
• Technology Enhanced Improvements - Incas - v2 : Same as above

I don't know enough about the others (without a comment) to know if they'd work or not.

@Polycrates
I think it won't scale to game speed. The maintenance values are all listed on the unit tooltips so there shouldn't be any confusion. I just disabled the standard formula's variables (don't really know how those work) and replaced it with this:

UPDATE Units
SET ExtraMaintenanceCost = MAX(1, ROUND(Cost / 100, 0))
WHERE Cost > 0;

Cost is the base on standard speed, and ExtraMaintenanceCost is /turn expense. Fortunately, code to handle this was already in the game and it appears on tooltips, just like buildings.

 

[Thalassicus]

I've made a big update... the Mod Browser version is now going to be like the one on CivFanatics, with the mod components as sub-folders of one download. This is to hopefully make things more convenient for people wishing to download more than one of these at a time on the Mod Browser. Individual components will still be easily deletable if desired. This means you can now delete the previous individual folders and use the new, combined folder (with its sub-folders).

It's also due to the fact my development cycle now involves updating all the mods at once, instead of individually, so there's not much reason to keep them in separate projects anymore. Discussion will still be split into the various related threads as normal.

Since this involved merging hundreds of files... please point out if there's any bugs that occurred as a result of this process (like any mod changes that have vanished mysteriously ).

Also, I'm thinking about putting out another public release sometime soon. I'm going to hold back on highly experimental edits until then, and focus on tweaking the concepts we've been talking about so far.

 

[Ahriman]

Running the version from the post #966, I notice that siege units still require iron, that iron is still revealed at iron working (not bronze working) and that the forge building still only gives +15% military production.
I'm pretty sure I had every component mod selected? Maybe I missed one.
Also, libraries still have no scientist slot, is that intended?

It's also due to the fact my development cycle now involves updating all the mods at once, instead of individually, so there's not much reason to keep them in separate projects anymore

I think that's a good idea. Many of the ideas only really work together anyway; the resource changes don't make sense considered separately from the unit resource requirements.

 

[Thalassicus]

If a single typo exists anywhere in an xml file, the whole thing gets ignored by the game without warnings issued, so a few releases I put out have bugs like that.

In particular... for a while there I had some paratrooper edits under the global "Defines" table instead of "Units," which was causing most of the combat mod to invalidate. That's what I was referring to with this:

I had some errors in versions *.15-17 in the combat mod, should be fixed now in *.18

I haven't messed around with early-game specialists (focusing on the strategic resources). I'd like to re-introduce specialist play in the early game as the next major subject. I think Firaxis went in the wrong direction with this... instead of adding and improving non-scientist options for the early game, they removed specialists entirely. Removing choices does remove the overpowered choices too (specialists, policy delays, promotion delays...), but lessens the depth of the game, and I'm starting to feel it'd be appropriate to deal with even in a balance mod.

 

[Txurce]

Ahriman,

I'm playing with dev mod v18, and iron was revealed at BW. It's been a while since iron hasn't been visible at BW, so you may well have forgotten a file.

Thal,

Are the changes between v18 and v20 significant enough for me to update mid-game? I use the entire dev pack.

 

[Thalassicus]

The iron reveal was in the same XML file as the paratrooper bug, so it was most likely the source of the problem.

You can wait until that game ends, other than the merge there's no other changes. v20 would definitely invalidate the save, since everything is now a single mod from the user interface's perspective.

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks, that makes sense.

I agree that they went the wrong direction with specialists.

My take on specialists is:
a) Specialists should be primarily about generating great people, not yields.
If you want yields, work a tile. Specialists should not be efficient at generating yields without a ton of social policies.

b) If great people are too weak, fix the great person by buffing them. If they're too strong, fix the great person by nerfing them.
Great scientist lightbulb nerfs and boosts to the great person buildings are a good fix; I wonder though, could we also increase the value of the great merchant and great artist abilities?
For example: maybe the great artist could also give you a boost to culture (for social policy development) when you use it to take tiles? Maybe the great merchant's gold should scale more with era or game turn?

c) Specialist slots should be rare and valuable. No building should give more than 1 slot of a particular type. The temple should only give 1 slot, the library should give 1 slot.

 

[Txurce]

I agree that they went the wrong direction with specialists.
For example: maybe the great artist could also give you a boost to culture (for social policy development) when you use it to take tiles? Maybe the great merchant's gold should scale more with era or game turn?

The GA could be like the GE or GS and give a free SP.

 

[V. Soma]

I will play a testgame with dev 9.20 version:

Dual sized continents,
Me: Rome, AI: USA
domination only, no CS, no barbs, no huts
King level, industrial start, quick

 

[Ahriman]

The GA could be like the GE or GS and give a free SP.

I think that could get unbalanced (in terms of cultural victories) very quickly. I don't think there's any way they should give an entire free policy. Plus, policies are generally more powerful than wonders, so even ignoring cultural victory I think that'd be too strong.

But, a contribution towards a policy? Sure.