Getting Started

[Thalassicus]

I generally have 10-20 for the first fifty turns (depending on luxuries) and only the capital. That's a direct 10-20% boost, which is especially significant since it's early. I increased tech costs 15% to compensate (and slow late tech pace too, which people said was too fast).

I was surprised at how interesting this makes the early game! We're presented with a strategic choice: build a settler and expand now, or wait a while longer and enjoy the science bonus?

It's similar to a National College rush, but better! The NC-rush forced us to a restrictive build order. Providing an inherent science bonus for tall capitals means we can still do an NC-style-start, but with any tech path or build order! In fact, this new bonus reduces the importance of the NC, since the modifiers add instead of multiply.

It's a great counterbalance to the rapid expansion urge. We have to expand eventually, so the question of when becomes even more important. Expansion inherently adds to science, so this helps early tall-empire players keep up technologically with quick expanders. In my first test games I expanded ASAP like I usually do, and realized I was missing out on the science bonus. In the next game I waited a long time to expand and got overrun by an AI. It's a matter of balancing expansion with research in the early game. I'm really excited about this!

 

[EmperorFool]

10-20? I rush to hook up early luxuries yet still end up at 1-5 until I can found my second city unless I luck out and get an excess luxury. What settings am I missing?

 

[Txurce]

I generally have 10-20 for the first fifty turns (depending on luxuries) and only the capital. That's a direct 10-20% boost, which is especially significant since it's early. I increased tech costs 15% to compensate (and slow late tech pace too, which people said was too fast).

I was surprised at how interesting this makes the early game! We're presented with a strategic choice: build a settler and expand now, or wait a while longer and enjoy the science bonus?

It's a great counterbalance to the rapid expansion urge. We have to expand eventually, so the question of when becomes even more important

You said it - this could be huge. More specifically, it may be the answer to the discussion you and I are having on another thread as to the advantages of quick expansion via Liberty vs Tradition (and the edge of cultural expansionist civs like France and Songhai vs Babylon and Korea). Not having tried it, I feel like balancing it perfectly is almost impossible in the best possible way, because the comparison is so fluid.*

Another major advantage of this could be the effect it has on the AI. All those happiness-drunk civs are going to become major science competitors! If there's a downside, it would be that the radical expansionists fall too far behind in science. We'll see!

* Edit: since the boost is only in the capital, science will be significantly slowed overall by the 15% added cost. Was this intended?

 

[Thalassicus]

@EmperorFool
It depends on map generation luck.

I increased tech costs 15% to compensate (and slow late tech pace too, which people said was too fast).

 

[EmperorFool]

Are you sure that you slowed the tech pace? I'm playing my first v130 game today, and while my previous v129 King game seemed to progress at about the same pace as Vanilla, we are ripping through the ages in this v130 Emperor game. It's 1150AD and Ramses just entered the Industrial Age.

Small Continents Plus map with normal settings except hot and arid. Ramses and Catherine had a brief early war; Catherine and I have been at war ever since but she's only sent about ten total units my way, and Isabella and Washington were in a semi-short war on the other continent. Is this pace standard for Emperor in VEM?

 

[Txurce]

Are you sure that you slowed the tech pace? I'm playing my first v130 game today, and while my previous v129 King game seemed to progress at about the same pace as Vanilla, we are ripping through the ages in this v130 Emperor game.

I am having the same experience. I don't know what the tech pace actually is, but I can say that I get a tech every time I ally with a CS or (I think) boost happiness into the positive and (I think) make a deal with a civ?

While playing Kore and trailing Egypt in beakers 532-463, I am ahead in techs 46-42.

 

[Seek]

I played random and drew Korea (and have the same strange research rates), so maybe it's something related?

 

[EmperorFool]

While I'm not seeing varying tech rates, the game above continues apace. Turn 225, 1575 AD, and Ramesses has entered the Modern Era! Not to worry, I just entered the Industrial Era on the same turn.

Oh, and he just switched from friendly to hostile and denounced me a few turns ago because . . . my friends (him!) found reason to denounce me. Time to stop futzing around with Catherine and build an actual army.

 

[truetom]

I'm a bit confused: are you saying there's a happiness boost now? Or science? What's a "tall" empire?

 

[Txurce]

I played random and drew Korea (and have the same strange research rates), so maybe it's something related?

That's what I assumed at first, but then the original boost, not the recently tweaked specialists, would have been the guilty party. Early culture from and Event also helped a lot. (Flying through the trees really helps science!) Others are saying the same thing with different civs, so I don't thnk so.

I'm a bit confused: are you saying there's a happiness boost now? Or science? What's a "tall" empire?

It seems as if the game has artificially high science, only partly due to a happiness benefit (not boost). A tall empire is generally considered to be one comprised of 3-5 cities.

 

[truetom]

Started a 1.30 game and no matter the setup I get defeated right away, don't even enter map. Why?

 

[Txurce]

Since it seems to be working for several others, I'd try the standard checklist.

 

[truetom]

Seems like I was playing with v1.17 for too long, forgot how to upgrade and what to do first. Thanks.

 

[Zaldron]

After giving it more thought, and taking into account my recent outsized success with wide Science games*, I agree that we should start with a focus on major happiness benefiting tall empires via the (presumably large) capital. It gives the tall civ a reason to accumulate happiness; most of the time you're better off investing elsewhere (by not building happiness buildings or selling single luxuries).

* more on this soon in the "3 playstyles" thread.

When I play tall I almost always sell my single luxuries because usually I'm so far over 0 that the money is more useful, but *also* it gives you a chance for a city to want WLTK on that lux or a CS to want it for influence. Then when the trade wears off and you get the lux back you get a free WLTK and/or tons of influence on CSes.

 

[Thalassicus]

I'll check out the research problems you described on the bug report forum as soon as possible.

Korean research bonuses are done in the game core only Firaxis has access to.

These are the tech cost numbers:

v129

Cost =    270  WHERE GridX =   4;
Cost =    500  WHERE GridX =   5;
Cost =    820  WHERE GridX =   6;
Cost =   1230  WHERE GridX =   7;
Cost =   1750  WHERE GridX =   8; 
Cost =   2600  WHERE GridX =   9;
Cost =   3500  WHERE GridX =  10;
Cost =   4700  WHERE GridX =  11;
Cost =   5900  WHERE GridX =  12;
Cost =   7400  WHERE GridX =  13;
Cost =   9000  WHERE GridX =  14;
Cost =  10600  WHERE GridX =  15;
Cost =  12300  WHERE GridX =  16;
Cost =  13900  WHERE GridX =  17;

v130

Cost =    310  WHERE GridX =   4;
Cost =    560  WHERE GridX =   5;
Cost =    920  WHERE GridX =   6;
Cost =   1390  WHERE GridX =   7;
Cost =   1970  WHERE GridX =   8;
Cost =   2900  WHERE GridX =   9;
Cost =   3900  WHERE GridX =  10;
Cost =   5300  WHERE GridX =  11;
Cost =   6600  WHERE GridX =  12;
Cost =   8400  WHERE GridX =  13;
Cost =  10200  WHERE GridX =  14;
Cost =  12100  WHERE GridX =  15;
Cost =  13900  WHERE GridX =  16;
Cost =  15700  WHERE GridX =  17;

 

[Txurce]

Thal, that matches the 15% tech boost you mentioned in the v130 notes, which is no problem - in fact, I would bet it will make for a better game. But why do RA's cost roughly triple what they used to?

 

[Thalassicus]

Based on suggestions to delay research agreements until a later tech, I've been experimenting with RA costs. Focusing most of the increase on early eras has a similar effect as delaying RAs, but leaves the option open if players really want to get it.

 

[Txurce]

Interesting... +100 still seems too high strictly to counterbalance the undocumented end-of-deal tech boost. On the other hand, the DoF boost (100%, right?) is so huge that the +100 can be shrugged off - something that should be more likely to happen if you are tall and peaceful (like I was in my v130 game, where all but one were Friends, even though I could only afford the beaker leader).

But isn't your math off? Bumping a 200g RA to 300G is a 33-50% bump, depending from which angle you look at it. 350g to 450g is 22-28%.

 

[Thalassicus]

Oh! I accidentally referenced RA costs from the ancient wonders scenario files instead of vanilla. One of the mistakes possible with global searches through the game asset folder! Thank you for bringing this up, and I've fixed it now for v131.

The increase addresses the DoF buff from 150% -> 200%. Costs went up 30-50% for everyone, but rewards went up 33% for players with friends (200/150=0.33). This change is also for people on the forums concerned RAs should be delayed or nerfed. Now RAs are somewhat more focused on peaceful empires, but still highly accessible to everyone.

 

[Txurce]

That's an even better explanation. I'm very happy knowing early RA's are supposed to be exorbitant. Now that I understand it, and with the boosting of DoF's, even the v130 rates seem appropriate!

(We'll see how tall vs wide science fares, but boosting RA cost coupled with strong DoF's should further favor tall civs.)

And with regard to math, I also now see that you were adding the two parties' contributions to each RA, rather than just the human's.