SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
For the settler, i was moving it towards japan, to take the position to the east of their town of tokyo, to get the iron and possibly the cow.
GK2- The Training Day Experiment
- Thread starter Gengis Khan
- Start date
ControlFreak
Not An Addict, Really
That wasn't a leading question, was it?
RE:Q2 SolarKnights turnlog indicated that he was moving the settler "North toward Japanese" so it would settle "here" (CF waves hand over Northeastern part of map.
) He also indicated he was moving the settler out of Allegeny, in the presence of "Japanese scout" so I assumed, without escort. I was confused about his turnlog though. He indicated the Settler moved 1 East, but it looks to be 1 West. He also said he was avoiding Japanese warrior, but he still ends up right next to the warrior.
EDIT: SolarKnight posted while I was typing.
Remaining questions are not that leading and should prompt some good, directed thoughts from the team.
@scoutsout - nice job with the MM pictures. Very helpful to people new to MM. Just to extend this discussion a bit, let me throw in what I believe about the Governor's role in this.
If you are using the Governor to manage Moods, you can not MM because the governor is in full charge of citizen placement. (If you are doing this in non-corrupt cities, stop it. It will make you better to do this stuff yourself.)
Now that the "Moods" setting is off, the Governor will only chose the placement of new citizens, i.e. the turn a city grows, the citizen has to be put somewhere, you haven't told him where yet, so the governor picks.
How Governor choses the next tile worked by a new citizen.
Governor tile selection is made in the following way (AFAIK, someone correct me if I'm wrong):
- For each unworked tile, add the shields, food and gold (all are equal at this point). If there is a clear winner, pick that.
- In the event of a tie, check the amount of fpt for the city. If it is less than +3fpt, pick the tile with the most food.
In the event there is more than +2fpt, compare the "Emphasize" check boxes: - If the Production box is checked, chose the tile with the most shields.
- If Production not checked, or there's a tie in sheilds, check if Commerce box is checked, chose the tile with the most commerce.
- If neither Production nor Commerce boxes checked or its still a tie, check if Food box is checked, chose the most food UNLESS it makes more than +3fpt. This is why the governor never manages a high food settler factory properly, it doesn't pick the high food tile at +4fpt, even if food emphasis is checked. You have to manually make the city a +5fpt or +6fpt if it's not already.
- If it's still a tie, then one of the tiles is selected randomly. Not sure if the city radius or other factors affect this choice.
Also note that if none of your forests were on the river, their score would only be 3 so the governor would be picking the roaded, unmined BG and you wouldn't be getting the extra sheild from the forest each growth turn. I don't think checking "Emphasize production" would change that because I think it's only used to break a tie. That's why so many players think the "Emphasis" makes no difference, it's only used in very specific circumstances.
@ alerum68, binyo66 - welcome
@ GK - good job editing the second post to make this thread more readable. Thank you also for the dedication/credit. You are being very gracious. My last day a surf-a-lot job is this friday, I hope to see a few more turnsets before then. After then, I will try to check in from home from time to time as kids/wife allow.
GO TEAM!
alerum68
Priest of Hiroshima
Sweet. I've already read the first 10 pages, ie - you're opening move p) and am going to finish up today, then will jump right in. Should I post the first 20 turns too, or just skip to the current point?
EDIT: Well, tried to DL the original save and it's gone, so I'm guess just gonna read up to the current point, and DL the save tonight.
p) and am going to finish up today, then will jump right in. Should I post the first 20 turns too, or just skip to the current point?EDIT: Well, tried to DL the original save and it's gone, so I'm guess just gonna read up to the current point, and DL the save tonight.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
If you want to play the turns, we can have someone send it to you. I think the key is to absorb as much as possible from the past and get yourself up to the present.
I think Gengis is at class. He'll be posting the roster when he gets back.
I think Gengis is at class. He'll be posting the roster when he gets back.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
New Teammates - Here is the beginning of your known world:
And here's your 4000 BC SAV file (End of Turn).
And here's your 4000 BC SAV file (End of Turn).
Gengis Khan
Deity
Since I'm a big fan of throwing new members in head first here's what we'll do........
Roster:
binyo66- Up
alerum68- On deck
-Oblivion- on the bench
Scouts- patiently waiting
Shogun- played 2 turns ago
Solar- just played.
This will be our tenitive roster for the rest of the game, barring something unforseen happening.
I still want everyone to answer the 6/7 questions like they were taking the next turns, then biny can go ahead & grab the save(remember to make the log as detailed as possible). I have the next 3 days off work so we'll try to pick up the pace a bit, on my end at least.
CF: Not at all, I'm gracious for all the time & effort you're putting into helping out. Hope you can still drop in every once & awhile after friday. And the questions aren't as loaded as they seem.
[edit- Now I just have to edit my sig, cause I have a problem saying no to people & don't want to turn this game into a 10 man roster.
]
Roster:
binyo66- Up
alerum68- On deck
-Oblivion- on the bench
Scouts- patiently waiting
Shogun- played 2 turns ago
Solar- just played.
This will be our tenitive roster for the rest of the game, barring something unforseen happening.
I still want everyone to answer the 6/7 questions like they were taking the next turns, then biny can go ahead & grab the save(remember to make the log as detailed as possible). I have the next 3 days off work so we'll try to pick up the pace a bit, on my end at least.
CF: Not at all, I'm gracious for all the time & effort you're putting into helping out. Hope you can still drop in every once & awhile after friday. And the questions aren't as loaded as they seem.
[edit- Now I just have to edit my sig, cause I have a problem saying no to people & don't want to turn this game into a 10 man roster.
]My plan
From the position:
1. I build my capital right where the settler now.
2. The worker move 1 NW, so it has only 1 tile from the wine, and 1 tile from the cow.
3. The scout will move to the hill at SW
BTW what is the 6/7questions? Sorry if I missed something (learning curve )
Can I grabbed (I did already actually), and open the files now ?
From the position:
1. I build my capital right where the settler now.
2. The worker move 1 NW, so it has only 1 tile from the wine, and 1 tile from the cow.
3. The scout will move to the hill at SW
BTW what is the 6/7questions? Sorry if I missed something (learning curve
)Can I grabbed (I did already actually), and open the files now ?
Gengis Khan
Deity
I think that's exactly what we did to start so you get a 
Here's the questions again, without the horribly copied pics.
Q1. Niagra Falls: worker finishes his job in 1(but still has movement if you want to change him. What changes would you make?
Q2. The settler: Wheres he headed? You waiting on an escort(from where)? Why or why not? What does your location bring to our empite(whyd you chose that site)? Are you still going for RCP, how does that location effect the rest of the layout if so?
Q3. Research: Does everyone having Myst affect our 40turn Poly gambit(due in 11)? Why or why not? Whats the next tech youd like to research, how, and why?
Q4. Scouts: Our 2 scouts behind Zulu lines, what are you going to do with them?
Q5. Warriors: We have 1 to the south, 2 forted in Niagra Falls, and 1 in Grand River, Salamanca, and Allegheny. What are you doing with each?
Q6. Any Civ that you are particularly worried about, who & why?
Q7. For Solar Knight: Open the save, and what changes would you make without hitting a new turn? Everyone else can chime in after he answers.
Wait a couple hours for some people to answer then go ahead.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Q1. I'm going to have him quit, and move 1 tile NE, to begin roading it on the next turn. We need a road going NW in the worst way...
Q2. The settler will go straight away to the second "canal city" site, by way of the iron mountain. If he sees no barbs, he won't wait the turn for the escort. I'll pull the warrior out of Allegheny to escort him...
Edit: Unless he sees a Japanese settler headed for our Iron... in which case he goes to the hilltop SW of the Iron Mountain, and makes a town there (to be disbanded later...)
Q3. I say continue with the Poly gambit, though we might want to see the effect of ratcheting up science for a few turns. We're pretty close to getting it, and my gut says the AI are researching Writing (or HBR).
Q4. Scouts...I say leave one over there to stay on high ground and perhaps get a glimpse of a passing galley. Shoot... as long as it'll take to get 'em back... maybe leave both of 'em over there since one will probably get popped by a barb eventually... have them dance between those two western coastal hills...
Q5. Warriors: Send the one to the south to the chokepoint. The genie may be out of the bottle as far as that persian warrior goes, but we've got to keep persian settlers off that chokepoint. The one in Allegheny goes with the settler, and one of the ones in Niagra go northward immediately, as does the conscript unit in Salamanca. We need to contain the Japanese. Take the second warrior out of Niagra and move him east of the river, to reinforce either Niagra or Salamanca in case barbs show up.
Q6. Japan. They're the closest, and our most direct competition in this first phase of the game (the land grab). IMO, they should also be our first military target. Whether the Zulu or X-man are next is irrelevant at this point.
Q2. The settler will go straight away to the second "canal city" site, by way of the iron mountain. If he sees no barbs, he won't wait the turn for the escort. I'll pull the warrior out of Allegheny to escort him...
Edit: Unless he sees a Japanese settler headed for our Iron... in which case he goes to the hilltop SW of the Iron Mountain, and makes a town there (to be disbanded later...)
Q3. I say continue with the Poly gambit, though we might want to see the effect of ratcheting up science for a few turns. We're pretty close to getting it, and my gut says the AI are researching Writing (or HBR).
Q4. Scouts...I say leave one over there to stay on high ground and perhaps get a glimpse of a passing galley. Shoot... as long as it'll take to get 'em back... maybe leave both of 'em over there since one will probably get popped by a barb eventually... have them dance between those two western coastal hills...
Q5. Warriors: Send the one to the south to the chokepoint. The genie may be out of the bottle as far as that persian warrior goes, but we've got to keep persian settlers off that chokepoint. The one in Allegheny goes with the settler, and one of the ones in Niagra go northward immediately, as does the conscript unit in Salamanca. We need to contain the Japanese. Take the second warrior out of Niagra and move him east of the river, to reinforce either Niagra or Salamanca in case barbs show up.
Q6. Japan. They're the closest, and our most direct competition in this first phase of the game (the land grab). IMO, they should also be our first military target. Whether the Zulu or X-man are next is irrelevant at this point.
alerum68
Priest of Hiroshima
I'm sorry you guys are gonna hate me for doing it this way but oh well... I already read so far enough that taking the first save isn't going to help much because I've seen most of the opening moves. I'm just going to read to catch up, and I'm sure I'll have some questions as I go along. First one is City Placement. RCP was pointed out, then someone said it doesn't work in C3C. What I've always done is set up my cities so that when they make a full 21 square X, they kind of line up the spaces between the first X to contain the point of the next ... I guess it's RCP, but it's more to get the most tiles used without wasting them. I hope that makes sense.
I made it a bit past half way through the post tonight, and will finish them tommorow. I don't think you realize how many post you guys made so far.
I made it a bit past half way through the post tonight, and will finish them tommorow. I don't think you realize how many post you guys made so far.
Gengis Khan
Deity
Nonsence! We're here to help, ask any questions you have or can even dream up. If we hated answering questions, we woulnd't have started a TDG.
And I agree that after reading 5 pages or so testing out your opening moves wouldn't help much. Hindsight is 20/20 after all.RCP can still be used in C3C, but it doesn't make use of the rank curruption glitch(in short that all the cities the same distance from the capitol become tied for the lowest rank thereby drastically reducing rank corruption).
You're describing OCP(Optimum City Placement- setting up your cities far apart so they have a minumum of overlap), and yea it can be factored into RCP(it lends itself naturally to RCP actually). While OCP is extreamly strong in the Industrial/Mondern Age, it's fairly weak in the early game. Just another choice, short term gain or long term plan.
Ya huh, 591........... umm 592
Check out the 2nd post(right below the roster), ControlFreak was nice enough to pull out the highlights & post them in "go-to" format, which will make reading back over it a ton easier.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Okay - let's get one thing straight - "Hate" is a four letter word. You can say ****, or ****, or even ****... but if anybody here says they hate you, I'll personally
their ***! 
<major snip>Cross-posting with GK...
Go ahead and say it..."Scout, you post too dang much."
Seriously - we're here to have some fun, and improve our game. Since you and I are here for the same reason, welcome!
Gengis Khan
Deity
Scout you post too damn much!
ControlFreak
Not An Addict, Really
And my 3 and a half pages per post doesn't help either.Originally posted by Gengis Khan
Scout you post too damn much!
{oh wait, got to add more to this post}
I second scoutsout's opinion of the word H*te. Don't use it, or I'll H*te you.
Civfanatics in general is a wonderful community. This TDG (Training Day Game) in particular is very welcoming of new players/differing viewpoints. There is very little you could do to get us to H*te you.
-0blivion-
Musically inclined
Ola
After pming GK, i am joining this TDG.
Thanks for letting me join.
After pming GK, i am joining this TDG.
Thanks for letting me join.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Oblivion welcome aboard 
RFHolloway
Analyst in the UK
Just to say thanks, to all you guys - your discussions have helped me move from Monarch to Emperor, particularly scouts shogun and SK (suitably guided by the destructors of course) Just managed to grab the iron from the iroq's WHILE they were connecting it 
let them finish building the road themselves of course
Just managed to grab the iron from the iroq's WHILE they were connecting it let them finish building the road themselves of course
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Welcome to CFC RFH!
Just trying to make civ safe for new guys everywhere Now if I can just make it safe for me 
Just trying to make civ safe for new guys everywhere
Now if I can just make it safe for me
alerum68
Priest of Hiroshima
Hey 0blivion! Good luck catching-up to all the post.
Thanks for the info Gangis! That explains alot to me... and truthfully I go for Diplo/Space/Culture victories, and is impossible to do that as I've seen on anything but OCP. I wonder if with the new corruption model someone has found a better city placement formula. I bet alot of you guys were very upset with the new corruption calculations. I know we haven't gotten that far, but I think that is where I have to most problems in my game is controling corruption without having to go Communisum, (population is power, and I hate pop-rushing at any stage of the game.) That and what to research early in the game on higher levels, and how to trade them, but you've answered part of that by suggesting taking the lower branch in the AA because the AI hardly ever goes for Poly... but one thing... since the Temple of Art is link with Poly now, does the AI still avoid it like the plague, or try and go for it?
I'll take your advice and go to the second page and just go over the quick post... is taking to long this way I'm afraid.... I'm going to post questions as I read in this post.
1) NO SPEARMAN?! Wow, that changes my whole game play, and now that I think about it, I waste at least 30 turns trying to get *1* spearman in my capitol that I could spend on building 5 cities, with a defending in each city. Unless Barbs are Random you won't see much battle if you have 1 defender in a city, even if it's a warrior. So why even bother with Spears, since Pikeman are just around the corner with Feudlism? (sorry for the sentence fragment.)
2) My god, I don't know how you can all remember the formulas. if it produces 7-9 shields THEN build spears. Great at figuring out turns in the future, just bad about adjusting for improvments along the way. ie- That BG is giving me 2 food, and 1 shield... I have 6 turns running it at that before I have it minned and giving me 2 and 2, so It's 12 food, 6 shields til that point. Now in 3 turns when I get it roaded it'll be6 food plus 6 shields, or a total of 18f/6s. Next turn the city grows, so I'll have to figure out that tile, and the other tile and it starts all over again. I don't know how you guys seem to REMEMBER these figures, and no that after you road and mine that BG, if you work it the whole time you'll have 18f/6s. Sorry for the ramble, just had to let the frustration out. hehehehe
3) A large part of my post was just deleted as I read on. Thanks Control Freak. I'll make sure to post at least one screen shot per every one of my post. It makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only person who has the spouse hating this game. I'm sure you all know the "look" when she sees you on the computer with that vacant look on your face.
4) MB, Canal cities that are on 1 tile chokes that you can sail your ships through and thus take out alot of land tiles and make things much quicker. Ahh, I see it was answered in detail a few post later. We have a sweet one that will cut the contient/island in half as scout has pointed out. Thanks for pointing it out.
5) Okay, everyone keeps talking about moving across a river gives you a move penalty. I've never noticed one while I play before, and remember in civ2 you got a move bonus on rivers. I thought there was nothing changed about moving on a river. How does it take it away? is it on roads until RR are built? With no roads at all? If so, why would it matter with 1-movement unit? Maybe because I don't build to many fast moving units until I have roads through my whole country I don't notice this? Again, to me it's always seemed as if nothing chances crossing a river.
6) Temples. I normally build most cities in something of this order, at least on Regent. That is Barrack, Spearman, Temple, and go from there. It seems like on monarch and above temples aren't build very often, and normal towns never use more then the 9 tiles given to them at creation. Is this a misconception, or is more or less right? In that case, should I rethink my entire OCP concept?
7) Zappa said he patch Civ3 to v1.35f... I thought 1.29f was the latest version? Did they sneak another out on us?!
Now, I think I got most of my questions for the moment out of the way I suppose it's time to answer your 6.
q1) I'd let him finish, then move him sw, then south, to irigate the FP+wheat there. If this is to be our worker factory, then let us get some food!
q2) This is more like 5 questions, but oh well. The Settler in Allegheny should move to that choke point before Japan is able to steal it from us. It will screw up our RCP, if we are going for that though, but only slightly. The question is though, what is more important? Settling that choke point, or just settling up north and hoping on taking 2 cities if Japan takes both of the spots. I think we should take it now. It'll grow quickly with a cow and 4 (?) BGs. Can't quiet tell without the grids on. As for escort, I don't really think one is needed at this point. We're not at war and is not very likely a barb camp is anywhere around. One thing though... the more I look the more I think it'll effect RCP. I think the benifits outweigh the cost.
q3) I think we should keep on with the gambit. Even if one AI did research Myst there is no way to know they will be going that way. And the tech may have been popped from a goodie hut. Would explain how it appeared while everyone else was going down the IW path.
q4) The scouts have reached the end of the contient. They cost 1gpt each, and by the time they'd make it back to the south, we'd already have that mapped out. It's time for those scouts to retire where they stand. They're cheap enough to make that it leaves no other option but to disband.
q5) Something needs to be down about the southern choke point. It's to late to run a block on the last northern choke point. I think we should continue exporing south with the warrior there, and take 1 warrior out of Niagara and send him to the southern choke point. The other 3 I'd leave in the cities they are for MP.
q6) Japan! They have superb land, and already are close to us. Also, this is from memory without looking at the save, they don't have iron. Guess who does, and is VERY close to them. Us. Didn't we wait a turn to settle as well? That means our power was cut in half in the second turn, and we've been playing catch-up ever since. We're the weaker of his two neighbors. Zulus can't reach us without going to war or galleys. They're our smallest threat. persia can build Immortals, but they're a good distance away and we have a choke point we can control between us. Japan is our most dangerous neighbor.
Well, I believe I'm all caught up now. And feel like the skills I have, that I thought were medicore we're not even that. No wonder SK got that much better between his two turns in our other SG.
Good luck catching-up to all the post.Thanks for the info Gangis! That explains alot to me... and truthfully I go for Diplo/Space/Culture victories, and is impossible to do that as I've seen on anything but OCP. I wonder if with the new corruption model someone has found a better city placement formula. I bet alot of you guys were very upset with the new corruption calculations.
I know we haven't gotten that far, but I think that is where I have to most problems in my game is controling corruption without having to go Communisum, (population is power, and I hate pop-rushing at any stage of the game.) That and what to research early in the game on higher levels, and how to trade them, but you've answered part of that by suggesting taking the lower branch in the AA because the AI hardly ever goes for Poly... but one thing... since the Temple of Art is link with Poly now, does the AI still avoid it like the plague, or try and go for it?I'll take your advice and go to the second page and just go over the quick post... is taking to long this way I'm afraid.... I'm going to post questions as I read in this post.
1) NO SPEARMAN?! Wow, that changes my whole game play, and now that I think about it, I waste at least 30 turns trying to get *1* spearman in my capitol that I could spend on building 5 cities, with a defending in each city. Unless Barbs are Random you won't see much battle if you have 1 defender in a city, even if it's a warrior. So why even bother with Spears, since Pikeman are just around the corner with Feudlism? (sorry for the sentence fragment.)
2) My god, I don't know how you can all remember the formulas. if it produces 7-9 shields THEN build spears. Great at figuring out turns in the future, just bad about adjusting for improvments along the way. ie- That BG is giving me 2 food, and 1 shield... I have 6 turns running it at that before I have it minned and giving me 2 and 2, so It's 12 food, 6 shields til that point. Now in 3 turns when I get it roaded it'll be6 food plus 6 shields, or a total of 18f/6s. Next turn the city grows, so I'll have to figure out that tile, and the other tile and it starts all over again. I don't know how you guys seem to REMEMBER these figures, and no that after you road and mine that BG, if you work it the whole time you'll have 18f/6s. Sorry for the ramble, just had to let the frustration out. hehehehe
3) A large part of my post was just deleted as I read on. Thanks Control Freak. I'll make sure to post at least one screen shot per every one of my post. It makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only person who has the spouse hating this game.
I'm sure you all know the "look" when she sees you on the computer with that vacant look on your face.4) MB, Canal cities that are on 1 tile chokes that you can sail your ships through and thus take out alot of land tiles and make things much quicker. Ahh, I see it was answered in detail a few post later. We have a sweet one that will cut the contient/island in half as scout has pointed out. Thanks for pointing it out.
5) Okay, everyone keeps talking about moving across a river gives you a move penalty. I've never noticed one while I play before, and remember in civ2 you got a move bonus on rivers. I thought there was nothing changed about moving on a river. How does it take it away? is it on roads until RR are built? With no roads at all? If so, why would it matter with 1-movement unit? Maybe because I don't build to many fast moving units until I have roads through my whole country I don't notice this? Again, to me it's always seemed as if nothing chances crossing a river.
6) Temples. I normally build most cities in something of this order, at least on Regent. That is Barrack, Spearman, Temple, and go from there. It seems like on monarch and above temples aren't build very often, and normal towns never use more then the 9 tiles given to them at creation. Is this a misconception, or is more or less right? In that case, should I rethink my entire OCP concept?
7) Zappa said he patch Civ3 to v1.35f... I thought 1.29f was the latest version? Did they sneak another out on us?!
Now, I think I got most of my questions for the moment out of the way I suppose it's time to answer your 6.
q1) I'd let him finish, then move him sw, then south, to irigate the FP+wheat there. If this is to be our worker factory, then let us get some food!
q2) This is more like 5 questions, but oh well.
The Settler in Allegheny should move to that choke point before Japan is able to steal it from us. It will screw up our RCP, if we are going for that though, but only slightly. The question is though, what is more important? Settling that choke point, or just settling up north and hoping on taking 2 cities if Japan takes both of the spots. I think we should take it now. It'll grow quickly with a cow and 4 (?) BGs. Can't quiet tell without the grids on. As for escort, I don't really think one is needed at this point. We're not at war and is not very likely a barb camp is anywhere around. One thing though... the more I look the more I think it'll effect RCP. I think the benifits outweigh the cost.q3) I think we should keep on with the gambit. Even if one AI did research Myst there is no way to know they will be going that way. And the tech may have been popped from a goodie hut. Would explain how it appeared while everyone else was going down the IW path.
q4) The scouts have reached the end of the contient. They cost 1gpt each, and by the time they'd make it back to the south, we'd already have that mapped out. It's time for those scouts to retire where they stand. They're cheap enough to make that it leaves no other option but to disband.
q5) Something needs to be down about the southern choke point. It's to late to run a block on the last northern choke point. I think we should continue exporing south with the warrior there, and take 1 warrior out of Niagara and send him to the southern choke point. The other 3 I'd leave in the cities they are for MP.
q6) Japan! They have superb land, and already are close to us. Also, this is from memory without looking at the save, they don't have iron. Guess who does, and is VERY close to them. Us. Didn't we wait a turn to settle as well? That means our power was cut in half in the second turn, and we've been playing catch-up ever since. We're the weaker of his two neighbors. Zulus can't reach us without going to war or galleys. They're our smallest threat. persia can build Immortals, but they're a good distance away and we have a choke point we can control between us. Japan is our most dangerous neighbor.
Well, I believe I'm all caught up now. And feel like the skills I have, that I thought were medicore we're not even that.
No wonder SK got that much better between his two turns in our other SG.
