GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[scoutsout]

My rationale for taking on Japan first:

1) They're right there in our face.
2) A world without Samurai can be a wonderful place.

 

[alerum68]

That could be a possibility ControlFreak, but for that to happen I really think we would need to have that second choke/canal city. If not, they'll limit our options to Japan and Persia. I don't see any way to go after the Zulu until we control Japan, or are able to use galleys.

 

[ControlFreak]

Samurai require iron.

Anyway, you're probably right that we should just waltz over Japan. Start the war with Swords, end with MW and have the combination at the Zulu door when we're done. I was thinking that the Zulu would capitalize on Japan's weakness and gain a lot of territory in the process. But it won't matter. You'll just kill them too.

My comments were just a mental exercise...yeah, that's it, a training exercise.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Good write up alerum! Some comments and answers:

One of the things we've been trying to get everyone to do - get away from formulas. If you know the mechanics - the whys and hows, then you can tailor your game play to all sorts of situations and variants. Sometimes spearmen might be the best thing you can build. It all depends on the situation, the terrain, and your long and short term strategy.

I don't think I remember any formulas. What I try to do is know what all my options are, what my goals are, and what the game mechanics are.

Moving across a river - If you have a one movement point unit - say a warrior, and it is going down a road it can move 3 tiles. Crossing a river uses up one entire move point until you discover Engineering. So say you move one tile then cross the river, your movement is done, and you only moved two tiles... the river penalized you one tile movement. Sometimes by laying out your roads, you can get around that.

Sometimes temples are very important. Sometimes they aren't. It just depends on your situation.

We're playing on 1.29f. That is the latest patch.

I like your answers to Gengis' questions. You are thinking outside the box. Each game is a series of problems to be solved, and a formula isn't always the answer. Creativity, non-formulated thinking and calculated risks are what gives the human mind the advantage over the AI.

 

[-0blivion-]

I think we should take out the Japanese once we are out of despotism, so as not to waste our Golden Age. IMHO, it would be better to take them out when we have MDIs and MWs, then we could make full use of our golden age, to get ahead of tech in the MI.

For the city placement, i would settle 2 NW, on the hill. The hill is a nice defensive bonus, and we would get a good range of BGs and hills + it would secure the iron. We could have another city on the west coast, and the two canal cities up north, one of them capitalising on the cow.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by -0blivion-
For the city placement, i would settle 2 NW, on the hill. The hill is a nice defensive bonus, and we would get a good range of BGs and hills + it would secure the iron.

All valid points, however, that placement would mess up RCP. Though we never formally decided we were going with RCP, I wonder if we shouldn't revisit some city-siting discussion. With our settler pump now primed, we're all going to be making some cities. It would probably be a Good Thing if we reached some sort of consensus on where those cities should be...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Now that I'm caught up on the conversation I started typing my post on page 30 and posted it on page 32

I don't think whether your GA is in despotism or not should impact your decision-making here. I'd ask myself a couple questions:

1. How long is the MW good for? Essentially until pikes arrive on the scene, Feudalism. So that is about 50-100 turns away.

2. Will you be able to get a different government between now and then? Probably not until the latter part of the 50-100 turns.

3. What type of terrain will the MW work best in? Flatlands. mountains and jungle are going to negate the movement benefit.

4. What opponents are going to be best to fight? Anything defense 2 or lower.

So the time to use your MWs is now. This is probably a situation where you say... My GA is going to be wasted... Oh, well.

What would you do if you were the Aztecs? Not build Jag Warriors?! That is one of your advantages in the very early game.
How about if you were the Persians, Romans, Egyptians or Greeks? You have to build your UU and plan on using it when it fits best or otherwise plan on a selective, limited use later just to trigger the GA.

 

[-0blivion-]

Agreed @ Scout

@Bugsy
Good points. After reviewing those, i agree that we should take advantage of our UU when we can use that advantage, otherwise it is wasted.

Sorry, im not much of an expert on warmongering. If there is anywhere i need help, it is there more than anything else.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Hey! Just because I say something doesn't mean it is true. Everything in this game is open to discussion. I have learned a ton of things since this game started. The whole idea is that by discussing things and weighing options, we learn and grow. In GOTM 29, we played as Egypt. I waited until the middle of the MA to pick a spot to win with a War Chariot and spark my GA. Now that is partly because the WC stinks as a UU. Here the MW rocks in the AA and can really dominate. The same with the Immortal. You guys need to watch out for X-man. If he decides he doesn't like you, you are going to have your hands full.

 

[ControlFreak]

Reposting the map with grid to help pick spot for existing settler.

Also, I put white, red and yellow lines to beat the dead horse that is "River Penalty". Warrior from Salamanca can get to Niagra in 1 turn because it moves road-road-cross. Warrior in Niagra however takes 2 turns to get to Salamanca because it must cross first, using all of its movement point. Cross (red-line), then Road, Road (yellow-line): that's the penalty.

After considering the towns proposed so far (SolarKnight,scoutsout, mine and -Oblivion-) I actually prefer Oblivion's. It grabs good land, is in a defensive position to withstand any approach from Japan, is minimal cultural overlap so as to not force the issue with Japan too soon, still ensures the iron is ours. Only problems are it misses the coast by 1 tile, it does not fall on a good radius for RCP.

About RCP, if you have only one city that is off the fix radius, it suffers from much more corruption than the first radius but only offsets the second radius corruption by a little bit (as if one more town were in the first radius). No biggie in my mind.



EDIT: Talk about discussion: I had to go four pages back to find the most recent save. And yes, I've installed Civ at work for my last day of loafing.:devil2:

 

[Bede]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I don't think whether your GA is in despotism or not should impact your decision-making here. I'd ask myself a couple questions:

1. How long is the MW good for? Essentially until pikes arrive on the scene, Feudalism. So that is about 50-100 turns away.

2. Will you be able to get a different government between now and then? Probably not until the latter part of the 50-100 turns.

So the time to use your MWs is now. This is probably a situation where you say... My GA is going to be wasted... Oh, well.
[/B]

Good use can be made of your GA, even in despotism, to stockpile MW (which have an excellent upgrade path) and to clear the environs of your realm of intruders, encroachers and other nefarious types.

If you have enough workers on hand, or can build them quickly enough, you can improve your terrain to the point where, when the GA ends, your spt and gpt remain elevated and you get a major boost when you change governments. A despotic GA can also accelerate your research just as the techs become more expensive (2x or 3X the cost of first and second tier techs), and you get enhanced trading opportunities across the last of the required techs.

/The Black Friar relurks

 

[shoguntaka]

I vote that the Settler would move N, NW (after the Japanese warrior moves out of the way). Scoutsout had made a map that made use of RCP, and he made a future-city dot right there. Also, it can get the Iron (and cow if it has culture-expansion).

I'm little bit concerned about having GA in Depotism. It'll probably only bring extra 3 or 2 shields/commerce to the capital. GA doesn't affect mined BG and forest. But I suppose that if the capital grew to very large size and starts working on the regular grasslands and plains, the GA in depotism can prove its usefulness.

Also, if we are planning to trigger GA in Depotism, then we WANT to irrigate the plains, so that it'll produce 2fpt and 2spt. Hmmm, GA in Depotism isn't that bad, afterall.

 

[shoguntaka]

Here's the Scoutsout's dotmap he made a while ago. The settler should move to site #5.



Also, another great thing about irrigating plain is that it's 2 turns faster than mining a grassland.

 

[scoutsout]

Almost cross-posted with Shogun...note that the dotmap he posted includes a site that I considered to be expendable (in the long-term). Site #3 was offered as a "Jumping off" point for NW expansion, and a unit factory....getting a barracks and nothing more. As the empire matures and the nearby cities get cramped, this city could be disbanded. (again...long-term)

I took CF's map, and made (yet another) dotmap. The problem I have with the Hill site NW of the iron is that it messes up city placement for 2 potential city sites at distance 7. We could have up to 3 decent cities at that distance; I currently think we ought to have 2 cities at distance 7; these are the yellow dots at the center of the yellow squares.

Consider this: Take the worker E of Niagra Falls, wake him up, and move him NE. Next turn, have him road that tile, when he finishes it, have him road the next plains tile to the North.

Take the settler and move him to the hill W of his current position. That claims the iron, and gives us a "Free Road" on a hill for NW expansion to our Ring 7 sites (saving several worker turns).

The settler currently under construction should go by the fastest possible route to the blue dot/canal site. The next 2 settlers could go to the yellow sites, and be there pretty quickly once that road is finished to the 'hilltop' site.

 

[Mistfit]

(delurk..or if you are Klingon Decloak)
Have you done anything to stem the tide of Japanese comming thru the northern most choke point or is that being left open for more settelers? You would have a lot more time if the Japanese had to rely on Tokoyo to settle more land in "your" area.

If it were my game I'd build towards that northern choke point to stop the Japanese from sending any more and garrison it heavily. That way you can start the war with Japan on "your soil" taking the cities from them. Let them do the work of Building them and Hopefully improving the terrain in the mean while. This would also keep them from reinforcing Tokoyo with troops from the "motherland" Just Ideas. (that's the best part of this game is everyone seems to do things a bit differently)

Great thread...although my boss prolly would't think so, taking in to account the time I've spent reading.

(back to lurking)

 

[alerum68]

Okay, I'd prefer to go to the blue choke point. It has a lot of BGs, a cow in it's radius, but no river. It'll take us 4 moves to get him up to there... the question is though, will we make it in time. I strongly believe that getting that choke point is important. If we don't we'll have to fight for it shortly when we take on Japan. We won't go anywhere if they have both the choke points. Now, if we don't make it, it'll only be 1 move south to settle on the Yellow dot. I saw all haste to build the canal city! We can then go for the center yellow dot, that's not in the box, (distance 7 city) and work on our RCP on distance 3, and distance 7 cities. I think first ring was distance 3? But if we don't take that northern choke point I have a feeling that RCP won't matter because we won't survive much past the Japs invading us.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I like the tile one NW of blue dot. It has two cows and 5 BGs on expansion.

 

[ControlFreak]

@Sir Bugsy, I think the Blue Dot is where it is because it matches the RCP10 that Tokyo is on. Seems, the team still needs to decide if RCP is the way to go, and if so, how far out should it be maintained. IMHO Your position is much better, for the cow but also because it's a true choke point. The Blue Dot still lets units waltz by the city on the west side.

Because it hasn't been addressed yet, and the comments are three pages back I'l like to talk about Niagra worker turns for a minute.

Originally posted by scoutsout
Q1. I'm going to have him quit, and move 1 tile NE, to begin roading it on the next turn. We need a road going NW in the worst way...

Quitting after 3 of 4 turns irrigating is a huge waste of worker turns. The road that you propose doesn't really help that much in terms of movement until the tile north of that is also roaded. Since neither tile is within our border yet we get very little benefit. Also the worker factory, which needs ALL of its FP irrigated to function every three turns will lose the extra food for at least 8 more turns.

Originally posted by alerum68
q1) I'd let him finish, then move him sw, then south, to irigate the FP+wheat there. If this is to be our worker factory, then let us get some food!

Good to let him finish but wasteful to move him to the wheat from here. You blow 1 turn to cross the river, another to move to the wheat. Note that you will grow in 3 turns*. Any FP irrigated will be another food tile to use. It doesn't have to be the wheat as long as we have enough citizens to work the improved tiles. This city needs to be size 6 with all FP being worked. Then mine the Plains.

*I believe the real question is, knowing there is 1 turn to go, what micromanagement can be done to get us further. The answer is you can move the forest tile to the FP the worker is on right now. The worker finishes at the end of the turn, the town makes +6 food instead of +4 and will grow in 2 instead of 3. The worker will be delayed because the forest isn't being worked but that's OK. The forest will get selected on the growth turn so you only lose 1 sheild.

The goal for this town is SIZE. With two workers here, you will Grow every four and finish the improvements the turn before growth. If you concentrate all worker actions on this town, in the long run you will have a worker army to make your road to the N (just before you need it).

As I said to Alerum, the better players don't do anything unless its part of the current objective. Given our high food, low shield start, we've been forced into a builder objective for now. Capitalize on our settler factory, fill the area and GROW. To get shields, we need workers. So they are the priority. Once that phase is over everything will be switched to military and we CONQUER. Then all back to infrastructure until we want war again. There is very little middle ground. Playing the extremes makes you powerful. (This goes for just about every aspect of the game. i.e. Science slider at Max or Min, never 50%. All out attack, then peace, never "send a unit here, send a unit there". That's what the AI do and they suck.)

 

[shoguntaka]

I did some maths,

When Niagara Falls grows to size 6,
and the 3 FPs are irrigated, and the wheat is irrigated as well.

We have two options here:

If we mine that plain...

radius: 2ftp, 1spt
floodplain: 3fpt, 0spt
floodplain: 3fpt, 0spt
floodplain: 3fpt, 0spt
wheat (fp): 5fpt, 0spt
forest: 1fpt, 2spt
plain(mined): 1fpt, 2spt
---------------------------------
18fpt, 5spt
There's 6 citizens, so 12 fpt is being consumed,
this nets us 6 extra fpt, and the city will grow every 4
turns. Also, when we're doign 4spt, the corruption will take out
1spt, making us 4spt. This will build the worker every 3 turns.

Now, what if we irrigate the plain instead?
We would swap the population/worker growth rate.

radius: 2ftp, 1spt
floodplain: 3fpt, 0spt
floodplain: 3fpt, 0spt
floodplain: 3fpt, 0spt
wheat (fp): 5fpt, 0spt
forest: 1fpt, 2spt
plain(irrigated): 2fpt, 1spt
------------------------------------
19fpt, 4spt
Again, 19fpt - 12fpt = 7spt, and the city will grow
every 3 turns, but 4spt - 1spt (corruption) = 3spt, the worker
will be build every 4 turns.

Mined plain = pop grows for every 4 turns, builds worker every 3 turns
Irrigated plain = pop grows for every 3 turns, builds workers for every 4 turns.

If we are going for mined plain, then the city will be slowly shrinking back down to size 1 (unless we build warriors in betweens).

If we are going for the irrigated plain, the population will get out of control and reach size 7, losing its worker-factory potention, which unwanted.

 

[ControlFreak]

A picture says a thousand words...

and my posts usually involve more.

To illustrate what I was thinking about worker moves (Take this as my initial thinking, not necessarily how things must be done )
I would not have started improving the FP where the worker is now because it doesn't give direct access to the NEXT tile I want to work which is the wheat. I would have irrigated then roaded the FPs (red 1-5) then hit the plains to mine then road. From where you are, I would follow red numbers 2-6 after finishing the irrigation where you are. Irrigating first ensures you never slow down on food production as you grow. This will accellerate your growth and get you to size 6 fast. The next worker built should join the current one. But be smart. Two workers moving to the FP on the same turn will irrigate in 2 turns. But making them both road it afterwards wastes one turn. (Still takes 2 turns = 4 worker turns, to build a 3turn road.) So at that point, one of the workers should start the road, the other move and start working the next tile. Each turn the workers get together, ask yourself if it will waste turns helping to finish what the other started. An even number of turns left means, the helper should join the work in progress. An odd number of turns means the worker should do a different job (like start a road instead of joining the irrigation). Paying attention to this detail will often get your jobs done 25% faster than just moving in groups and doing what you think should be done next. This is MM of workers. It gets more complicated in stacks of 3-9.

Since Niagra will be building mostly workers now, as they are made they should be sent to where they're useful. The first as I said, should join the Niagra PWG (Public Works Group). The second has a few choices. It could go help one of your other towns, possibly roading on the way. It could start the red ABC road which will give a path for the settler heading to Western Coastal yellow dot. (W of B-C) Or it could also join Niagra PWG if improvements aren't being made fast enough.

In my mind, the worker in Salamanca should go do the Blue 1-5. Grand Rapids is making it's own worker to start the Green 1-5. I would start the ABC road. This will give us fast access to the NW since a settler from Salamanca can get to Niagra in one turn and then get as far north as C on the next turn.

I didn't address scoutsout's road issue because 1)I think the path will begin from red 6 and head N. 2)Improving Blue numbers builds next road section. 3) we will have to road the iron mountain anyway for the resource. Until we have iron, we don't need the war path to japan, so one comes from the other.


EDIT: Shoguntaka@ I showed how we get a 3 turn worker factory already. I have to go back and find the post.

Here it is:

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Worker Farm
I've been trying to figure out how Niagra will get us a three turn worker farm without a granary (and without a courthouse). I am going to make the assumption that we lose the 3rd and 6th shields due to corruption. All FPs are irrigated, the one plain is mined. W=wheat, FP=Flood Plain,F=Forest,P=Plain,C=City.
Start Size 6, no shields, no food: C,W,FP,FP,FP,F,P.
Thats +6f, +4s (1+0+0+0+0+2+2-1corruption).
Turn 1, 6f, 4s.
Turn 2, 12f, 8s: Switch Plain to fourth FP. Thats +8f, +2s (Grow in 1, Worker in 1)
Turn 3, 20f grow>add Plain. (1+0+0+0+0+2+2-1corruption) 12s, build Worker, shrink to size 6. MM back to start condition if needed, Repeat.

That means Niagra needs all 5 FP irrigated/roaded and the Plains mined. (41 worker turns) Having the Forest roaded would be a nice bonus since it's used every turn.

What your calculations missed is the power of MM. Instead of fixing food at +6 or +7fpt we can go +6,+6,+8. The +8 makes us grow which makes the governer start using the high shield tile again and we grab the extra shields you're missing to finish the worker. This requires going into this city every third turn at least. But it will be good practice for you're micromanaging.

EDIT: note the last sentence of the quote, starting the ABC road has immediate benefit of +1gpt from the forest tile.