GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[denyd]

One other thing to consider: How many elite units do you have available to attack with?

If the number is low, then your chances for another GL soon are dim and you might want to save this GL for the FP in Susa. It would also give you a chance to promote a couple more veterans to elites before attacking the final Persian cities.

On the other hand, if you've got a bunch of elites, then use him ASAP (before the next elite attacks if possible). The Great Lighthouse or an Army is an excellent discussion point.

 

[GJ]

One other thing to consider: How many elite units do you have available to attack with?

If the number is low, then your chances for another GL soon are dim and you might want to save this GL for the FP in Susa. It would also give you a chance to promote a couple more veterans to elites before attacking the final Persian cities.

Good point

Most of the units in Panama are veterans, so maybe it would be better to wait. On the other hand, if we are using tactics based on picking off the majority of Xerxes' army with the same set of units, we will see some promotions of these veterans into elites before we even consider storming all of his cities.

I don't think there will be any shortage of units to pick on for promotions. Granted, the chances would be better if we had all elites now, but we might just be able to get another one in time for the FP.

I need to think about this...

 

[DJMGator13]

The only wonder available to us is Hanging Gardens (three content citizens in its city, one content in all our other cities). I've always thought of HG as a "nice to have" wonder. Its net effect is a commercial one; since there are fewer unhappy people, we can channel some of our commercial output that was going into luxuries into either taxes or science.

Edit: Silly me! I didn't check a coastal city. Great Lighthouse is available. The Persians are building that though...I'm almost tempted to see how close they are and if we can capture it from them later.

I'd suggest waiting on playing your turns until all teammates have weighed in on the "How to use our leader" discussion.

I have 2 questions for the team: Is there any advantage to building the HG prior to kicking off your GA? Also to consider is what other Wonder could be available shortly, that would be helpful upon meeting the other Civs? Edit: Disregard the second question. I forgot we are not allowed to build the Great Library.

(Expanding on Misfits post)

Edit: crossposted with denyd

 

[coletite]

I vote no on building an army. A MW army will have a limited useful life. I always like Sun Tzu, but then again, it will not be useful on the other continent. Saving the leader for the FP sounds good. So does using it for the Great Lighthouse so we can get contact with the other continent soon.

 

[scoutsout]

@Team: Coletite mentions 3 good options for the Great Leader.

1) Build an Army
2) Reserve for Forbidden Palace
3) Build the Great Lighthouse

Questions for the team:

1) What are the advantages of each?
2) Which gives the most immediate advantage?
3) Which gives the most lasting advantage?

Based on that analysis, what would you do if the decision was yours to make?

 

[alerum68]

IBT


Mine’s still alive. Wouldn’t you like to know what it finds groucho

Uneventful. Thanks for the detailed turn log. It makes it much easier to shadow. I realize we may not be able to do that much longer.

You gents need to decide what you’re going to do with the leader.

alerum68-
coletite – Just played
GJ - Up
qm1- MIA (at sea?)
Mistfit- On deck
SolarKnight

Did you find the sea route?!? DID YA? DID YA? DID YA?

The leader, IMHO, should be saved to rush our FP down in the Persian Lands.

Edit: Looks like some others had the same idea as me. Cheers Denyd.

Scouts, new avatar huh?

 

[coletite]

Army:

Advantages- A fast army can attack multiple times (can armies in vanilla do this? I've been playing PTW so long that I can't remember), can speed up our conquest of the Persians

Disadvantages- Units loaded into an army cannot upgrade which means we will have an army of MWs. MWs will quickly outlive their effectiveness.


FP:

Advantages- A second core will greatly improve our commerce and production and just may be the most important build we will make

Disadvantages- Lacks immediate use. Even though we do not have an elite MW, with all the skirmishing we will be doing with them there is a good chance that we will get a leader.


Great Lighthouse:

Advantages- We've got a pretty good handle on our homeland. Getting to the other continent will open up access to new techs (assuming everyone else is ahead of us) and other opportunities to trade. If we do end up fighting a war across the sea (which I think we should since overseas war is significantely different then hometurf) then the lighthouse will be a big help, especially now when we will be able to get to them, nut they won't be able to get to us.

Disadvantages- We will have to wait to build FP.


SUn Tzu:

Advantages- Free up gpt, 'rax in every city

Disadvantages- Most cities do not need 'rax since they will never build units. The healing abilities are only useful in border cities (if they get through our front lines, we are in trouble anyway)


My vote is for Great Lighthouse. It lasts for a while and is useful for both peace (trading) and war. It can be used right away to make contact. However, FP by far has the most lasting effect. Its immediate effect depends on the size of the captured Persian cities.

 

[GJ]

My opinion has shifted in the last few hours towards the Forbidden Palace. In terms of tactics alone, an MW army is not as useful for picking off Immortals in the countryside, because it can only attack once per turn (according to the Civiliopedia, anyway; Armies can indeed blitz in C3C).

I'm not sold on the Great Lighthouse yet, especially since it will become obsolete relatively quickly (doubly so if we make contact with the other continent). Besides, before we do anything else we should investigate Parsagadae and see how close it is to building it. We could potentially pilfer that wonder as well - especially if we chose an attack route that went for Gordium's iron before anything else.

I don't like the idea of leaving the leader just sitting there, but until something else comes up...

One thing we might consider is that if we are going to establish a foothold on the other continent, we are going to need lots of units - and our productive core will still be at home. Building Sun Tzu's may not be so bad in this sense. Plus, it keeps it out of the hands of those annoying CPU players, although in my experience it's not a huge priority for them.

I still want to do more exploring before I deem the Great Lighthouse "necessary", especially given that we could capture it ourselves. Herr Xerxes doesn't look like he's up anything on us, so building it now wouldn't really give a productive cascade (he's already building the hanging gardens someplace else).

My vote now shifts towards the FP, but I would like best a productive solution that uses that leader now, rather than waiting for a 20-turn military campaign in Persia to end.

 

[scoutsout]

Hmmm...

Let me ask another question: What can you build once you have had that first victorious army?

The reason I ask this is simple: We're a non-militaristic tribe in this game. Sometimes getting that first MGL takes a lot of combat. If we were playing a militaristic civ we could almost bank on getting another Leader...

I'm not saying that I think rushing a great wonder or the Forbidden Palace is a bad thing at all...

... it's just that there is something more in play besides "A Mounted Warrior Army".... and I want you guys to understand everything that you risk foregoing if you choose to use the leader for something besides an Army.

 

[GJ]

Let me ask another question: What can you build once you have had that first victorious army?

Victorious army --> Heroic Epic --> more leaders IF you fight enough battles to make it worth your while.

My full analysis is in post #1579. The short conclusion is that we will probably have to fight a war or two on the other continent to make building the heroic epic worth our while. That was a big part of the reason I originally wanted to build an army, but now that I think about it, it wouldn't be much fun building the FP brick-by-brick either.

Q: Which is more valuable - the immediate economic effect of building the Forbidden Palace? Or the short-term (armies can help take cities) and very-long-term (more leaders in the exceedingly long run) benefits of having an army and Heroic Epic?
my A: Take the money and run; the FP will be useful for far more turns, and we won't have to worry about what might be an expensive war to do it. Plus, it is more useful in the medium-term and forward.

--

Edit: The military academy. For some reason I thought you could build that without. My mind is going

That will let us churn out more armies later if we want, which would help in future conquests.

 

[scoutsout]

@GJ: Heroic Epic. Good. That was half the answer. What else can you build once you have had that first victorious army?

 

[coletite]

I forgot about the Heroic Epic. However, if we are not going to be fighting a lot of battles, 1 out of 12 isn't much better than 1 out of 14.

I can't remember what makes Great Lighthouse obsolete. Isn't it a late MA tech, like astronomy? If that is the case, we have an entire age to use it, plus we won't lose anything except the additional movement which is less important as the boats get faster.

Of course, if Xerxes is going to complete it soon... the risk here is that one of the "unkown" civs may beat him to it. If we hurry the Lighthouse, he'll switch to a different wonder (we can gift him Feudilism if we need to, although we'll want to time everything just right so that we can declare war and take out his iron before he builds any pikemen) then we can take that wonder when we wipe him out. The "Persian" wonder would be of lesser value to us (like Sun Tzu if we agree that it isn't very important).

[Edit] Military Academy, right? Armies cost about as much as small wonders. Useful, but takes up a lot of production. If we were going all out war, then it would be useful, but since we are likely to adopt a peaceful attitude for the end game, it may not be worth it.

 

[GJ]

I forgot about the Heroic Epic. However, if we are not going to be fighting a lot of battles, 1 out of 12 isn't much better than 1 out of 14.

I can't remember what makes Great Lighthouse obsolete. Isn't it a late MA tech, like astronomy?

Magnetism (way over on the other side of the tech tree), although Astronomy gives us the "can traverse sea squares" effect, which (I presume) is the effect we were going for where exploration was concerned.

Of course, if Xerxes is going to complete it soon... the risk here is that one of the "unkown" civs may beat him to it. (snip)

No one else seems particularly interested in it at this point (British are going for Great Wall, French for Great Library), so my guess would be that Persia's going to get it unless we do. But to do that would take an investigation of Parsagadae.

I missed gifting Feudalism. Good call. (Although we'll have to get it first...that looks like it might take a while.)

[Edit] Military Academy, right? Armies cost about as much as small wonders. Useful, but takes up a lot of production. If we were going all out war, then it would be useful, but since we are likely to adopt a peaceful attitude for the end game, it may not be worth it.

We could always cash rush them, provided that we have more money than we know what to do with. I agree that we probably won't be going all-out war (what fun is it pinning someone to his last city before building a spaceship, anyway? ).

Another knock on the MA is that only the city that has it can build armies. So we would still be building armies at home and shipping them (EDIT: by sea, because airports aren't going to help, sadly). (EDIT2: Must have deleted the note that you need Military Tradition before the military academy becomes a factor.)

 

[DJMGator13]

Another knock on the MA is that only the city that has it can build armies. So we would still be building armies at home and shipping them until Flight. Plus, the MA is a ways away technologically (Military Tradition).

Actually, you can not send an Army (loaded or unloaded) thru an Airport.

 

[coletite]

GJ- Of course, I forgot that MA needs Military Tradition. I'm even more convinced that an army is not the way to go here.

You're right, gifting Feudalism to Persia would either A) put off our declaring too long or B) require us to sue for peace, gift tech, and then breaking the agreement.

If we know no one else is building lighthouse, getting it from Persia is just as good, assuming they are close enough to finishing. We'll have to check that out. I don't think Hanging Gardens is much of priority, not enough to use a leader anyway. So maybe waiting for the FP is a good idea.

However, maybe we won't have to wait. In light of the leader, is it worth revisiting the FP discussion? I know I was in favor of putting it in Persian lands, but what about the Japanese/ZUlu lands? Is ex-Japan to close to the capitol? Granted, it won't be a ring placement and their probably won't be enough cities to benefit from it, but Persian land isn't all that big either.

 

[scoutsout]

[Edit] Military Academy, right? Armies cost about as much as small wonders. <snip>

Ah yes, they do, don't they?

If we were going all out war, then it would be useful, but since we are likely to adopt a peaceful attitude for the end game, it may not be worth it.

I love this paradox... stop and think about this for a minute....

What are the modern era victory types, and what do you need to pull them off?

 

[coletite]

Diplomatic: High population, United Nations, good rep (or lots of money)

SS: Highly productive cities

Culture: Lots of culture improvements, wonders


Granted, you usually need to do a fair amount of warmongering to get the infrastructure to reach one of the "peaceful" victories. We won't get it until the end of the Middle Ages. By then chances are good we'll get another leader.

 

[TimBentley]

[Temporarily leaving my lurking position]

After searching the readme file, I found:
Changes 1.17f:
...
Armies now have the zone of control and blitz ability.

So armies can attack multiple times in a single turn if they have the movement points available to do so.

[Now returning to my lurking]

 

[Gengis Khan]

Also think back to the skirmashing excersize you've played. What was the kill ratio you managed with MWs against Immortals? Is a FP rush worth that being the only leader we'll get for a long time?

 

[coletite]

I just remembered: you can only have one great leader at a time, right? If so, then we should use him before the war with Persia. Either and army or rush lighthouse. My vote then is for the lighthouse. We will have a high kill ratio so, if I am reasoning correctly, we should be a able to generate a lot of elites which means a lot of chances for leader fishing.

[edit] I should add that after Persia, the next war will probably be a long way off. But with the Great Lighthouse it won't be as long...