Global warming and environmental catastrophe: science or myth?

killercane said:
Ok. Why doesnt the scientific community agree that GW is proven and factual? Is it not still a "robust theory?" Shouldnt the historical climactic fits cause reasonable doubt if you assume GW as factual first?
but the scientific community DOES agree - or are you blinded by the out-dated, and as I have shown, falsely interpreted, 'studies' posted here that 'prove' otherwise?

3: Do you agree that a change in the greenhouse effect must alter the planet’s energy balance?
Well maybe. I dont think there's enough factual data and "energy balance" is a vague term. Gothmog I think made the comment along the lines that "global warming" is an imprecise term with many definitions. Its easy to go off on tangents if we dont use specific terms. You mean the IR balance studies? I really dont think greenhouse gases will change the IR balance to a horrible and unlivable degree.
hm, seems you missed a step here: the temp of the athmosphere is mostly comtrolled by how much infrared radiation FROM EARTH is kept in. This, in turn, depends on two things: how much (mostly visible) radiation from sun hits earth, warms it, and thus enables it to send out IR, and how much greenhouse-gasses is in the athmosphere to trap the IR.

Thus: more greenhouse-gasses (GHG) -> hotter athmosphere (provided the higher concentration of GHG doesn't produce otehr effects that counter the warming.

4: Do you agree that a change in Earth’s energy balance will have an effect on our climate?
Again maybe. My personal belief is that the Earth is on an upwards cycle and human caused greenhouse gases contribute to the increases somewhat. I just have a hard time believing they are the sole cause and that all life will be extinct in 1000 years if we dont convert immediately to non fossil fuel sources.
So you not understanding it means it is wrong?
Surely you are too smart to think that way.

if you check the evidence posted here you'll see that there is no casue for a natural warming trend. So the warming comes about how, if not by man?
My point is that GW proponents cannot apportion the deleterious human caused environmental effects effectively due to a lack of data.
Wrong - as the Ruddiman paper shows (despite the, by now three times rebuffed whinings of a certain poster), temp and insolation and methane concentration are strongly linked. Other factors play a role, too, but only a small one.
Thus, from insolation, we should be quite able to predict what the climate should be like.

Compare 'should' to 'is' and see the effect of man's actions.

You're jumping the gun. Reread my post. I did not make the jump to discussing man and responsibility.

You may have, or not - doesn't matter, as long as we agree on this:
'because there were cliamte changes before man, man isn't responsible for the present one' is dead wrong.
deal?
 
Agreed! But be aware that reputable scientists never claim that humans are the sole cause of climate change. The most extreme views you will get there is that human activities are the most important cause. Greenpeace is of course a different matter entirely. Don’t trust those maniacs!
I think we see eye to eye on most of the things discussed here. The end of human life in a short time by environmental causes is laughable. Hurting endangered species' life cycles and hurting ecological balance is more of an important issue. But taking that one step further, isnt some loss of varied life inevitable? Despeciation, if thats a word?

but the scientific community DOES agree - or are you blinded by the out-dated, and as I have shown, falsely interpreted, 'studies' posted here that 'prove' otherwise?
Ha of course they dont agree. If they did, we really wouldnt be having this conversation. I really havent seen many studies totally debunked in this thread. I have seen someone "owned" though, FWIW. I checked Ruddiman's plague paper that you indicated, and he states in his abstract "This hypothesis is based on three arguments". He is not stating facts, and I dont place absolute faith in his extrapolations from incomplete data. He is making plausible arguments based on what his samples show.

If an environmentalist wants me to change my lifestyle choices (get an electric car, use solar panels for energy, whatever), Im all ears. Naturally, I am conscientious about the environment and want to do my share to take care of it. However, they have to bring SOLID EVIDENCE to the table. Ruddiman's ideas show promise and deserve further study. But these ideas do not on their face succeed until they are corroborated with more facts.

if you check the evidence posted here you'll see that there is no casue for a natural warming trend. So the warming comes about how, if not by man?
I have no idea what thread you're reading. I think Pikachu points out that reputable scientists dont point to humans as the sole cause, with which I agree.

Wrong - as the Ruddiman paper shows (despite the, by now three times rebuffed whinings of a certain poster), temp and insolation and methane concentration are strongly linked. Other factors play a role, too, but only a small one.
Thus, from insolation, we should be quite able to predict what the climate should be like.
Ruddiman is inferring from incomplete data and arguing those points in his paper! I think the first two arguments could have merit, but the third plague argument is specious at best. Scientists can barely predict many things in the climate today with a king's wealth of information available, how can they predict the climate over 350,000 years ago without a huge margin of error using only a small set of samples?

The plague argument seems to me to be a tidy way of explaining away circumstances. He is using random disease outbreaks in comparitively small areas (portions of China in the early ADs, later Italy and the European spread of the black death, later decimation of the Indians) to explain reforestation and deforestation and variances in CO2 levels? Please. Assuming there was a slowing of deforestation in Europe in the 14th century, the entire rest of the world and the vast majority of the world's population was not affected at that time! Where is the mention of war in the first millenia? The Crusades later? The loss of manpower and leaving only the serfs of the manor to till the fields without as much supervision would seem to me to have a noticeable change in deforestation/reforestation levels if the plague years had such a huge noticeable effect on the European environment.
Maybe. Taken as an absolute statement (man isnt responsible) then theres a considerable possibility that it is wrong. But "dead wrong" connotates for me that the statement has no factual validity, and there is factual merit for validating historical climactic changes as a cause of a warming trend.
 
killercane said:
Ha of course they dont agree. If they did, we really wouldnt be having this conversation.
hu?????

sorry but this is entirely bunk - just think of the many people who claim they are not addicted to cigarettes. The scientific communtiy is quite in agreement that tobacco (actually: nicotine) is addictive - but the laypeople, for various reasons, prefer to NOT beleive them.

Same goes here: because some people chose to disbelief science, that doesn't mean there is no agreement IN science.
I really havent seen many studies totally debunked in this thread. I have seen someone "owned" though, FWIW. I checked Ruddiman's plague paper that you indicated, and he states in his abstract "This hypothesis is based on three arguments". He is not stating facts, and I dont place absolute faith in his extrapolations from incomplete data. He is making plausible arguments based on what his samples show.
Which, to date, nobody has been in any way able to prove wrong, which fits the quite complete data..... your understanding of science as a process seems somewhat weird to me though.

If an environmentalist wants me to change my lifestyle choices (get an electric car, use solar panels for energy, whatever), Im all ears. Naturally, I am conscientious about the environment and want to do my share to take care of it. However, they have to bring SOLID EVIDENCE to the table. Ruddiman's ideas show promise and deserve further study. But these ideas do not on their face succeed until they are corroborated with more facts.
so, will you please begin to float around - gravity isn't proven SOLID, after all :lol:

I have no idea what thread you're reading. I think Pikachu points out that reputable scientists dont point to humans as the sole cause, with which I agree.
if you read it again, you'll see that obviosuly the MAJORITY of the warming effect(s) and hardly anything of the cooling effects is man-made. There's agreement so far in the scientific community.

Ruddiman is inferring from incomplete data
????? :confused: what incomplete data? There's hardly a chance to get better data....
and arguing those points in his paper! I think the first two arguments could have merit, but the third plague argument is specious at best. Scientists can barely predict many things in the climate today with a king's wealth of information available, how can they predict the climate over 350,000 years ago without a huge margin of error using only a small set of samples?
if you read it thoroughly, you'll find he is suggesting the plague MIGHT be the reason, while he has a totally different tone for other arguments. Seems he is capable of sorting between 'highly probable' and only 'possible'

The plague argument seems to me to be a tidy way of explaining away circumstances. He is using random disease outbreaks in comparitively small areas (portions of China in the early ADs, later Italy and the European spread of the black death, later decimation of the Indians) to explain reforestation and deforestation and variances in CO2 levels? Please. Assuming there was a slowing of deforestation in Europe in the 14th century, the entire rest of the world and the vast majority of the world's population was not affected at that time! Where is the mention of war in the first millenia? The Crusades later? The loss of manpower and leaving only the serfs of the manor to till the fields without as much supervision would seem to me to have a noticeable change in deforestation/reforestation levels if the plague years had such a huge noticeable effect on the European environment.
Check a good history source on the population desity worldwide - you'll see why he makes this point..... please. Killing 50% of the population of Europe, plus a significant portion in western Asia, plus some in eastern Asia - hell yes that has an effect!
I can show you town names in my living area that show the germanic stem words for 'cutting wood' or 'clear' (in the sense of removing forest' in them. All over the place, and roughly the same time - and if archeologists dig deeper, they find older settlements. Funny, that these towns all got founded in what then was forest, and all at roughly the same time? here id that forest suddenly come from, in large parts of Germany, just after the plague?

Maybe. Taken as an absolute statement (man isnt responsible) then theres a considerable possibility that it is wrong. But "dead wrong" connotates for me that the statement has no factual validity, and there is factual merit for validating historical climactic changes as a cause of a warming trend.
:rolleyes:

semantics.
basically, you agree that denying man has a role is false, if I understand your ramblings correctly.
 
Same goes here: because some people chose to disbelief science, that doesn't mean there is no agreement IN science.
All scientists do NOT agree. If they did, there would be no GW debate. Laypersons are not the ones debunking the "GW is totally man made" theory, it is attacked by other scientists!
Which, to date, nobody has been in any way able to prove wrong, which fits the quite complete data..... your understanding of science as a process seems somewhat weird to me though.
Exactly the reason why my first question regarded who had the burden of proof. Im inclined to believe that the Earth is taking its natural course, and GW proponents have the burden of proof. No one is able to prove his extrapolations wrong, but to prove this relationship to GW he (or any other scientist doing a study) has to prove his theory right. Of course science is a process; how else do you get to the truth without back and forth testing and retesting of hypotheses?
Check a good history source on the population desity worldwide - you'll see why he makes this point..... please. Killing 50% of the population of Europe, plus a significant portion in western Asia, plus some in eastern Asia - hell yes that has an effect!
World population grew by 160 million people from 1000-1500 according to http://arnoldkling.com/econ/book/growth/growthfacts.html. There are a number of steady growth rate charts showing a steady increase in growth from ancient times until well after the Renaissance when growth really jumped. Ruddiman mentions in his paper 40 and 50% death rates in some cities. The prevailing estimation is at about 30% mortality for southern Europe. Sorry but thats a drop in the bucket in world population.
semantics.
basically, you agree that denying man has a role is false, if I understand your ramblings correctly.
Hey I rambled on for a whole 'nother paragraph (that I deleted before posting) talking about how I was mincing words, but I saved you from having to read through it. Yes it is right that denying human influence on the environment is a hard argument to substantiate. Where we differ is you thinking the majority (90%? or just 51%?) of the temperature changes and global ecological changes are manmade. Its nowhere close to that.
 
killercane said:
All scientists do NOT agree. If they did, there would be no GW debate. Laypersons are not the ones debunking the "GW is totally man made" theory, it is attacked by other scientists!
show me a significant portion of scientists who work in the field and hove no extraneous reason to 'disbelief' (i.g. do not get funded by interest groups) who do NOT agree (studies more than say 8 years old do not count).

Also, you said 'we would not be having this discuccion here' - that's still BS, as you are a layperson.

Exactly the reason why my first question regarded who had the burden of proof. Im inclined to believe that the Earth is taking its natural course, and GW proponents have the burden of proof. No one is able to prove his extrapolations wrong, but to prove this relationship to GW he (or any other scientist doing a study) has to prove his theory right. Of course science is a process; how else do you get to the truth without back and forth testing and retesting of hypotheses?
there's one fundamental flaw with your reasoning: you demand unrealistic proof!

Please, do proof gravity inrrefutably :) then we can talk about proof of GW.....


World population grew by 160 million people from 1000-1500 according to http://arnoldkling.com/econ/book/growth/growthfacts.html. There are a number of steady growth rate charts showing a steady increase in growth from ancient times until well after the Renaissance when growth really jumped. Ruddiman mentions in his paper 40 and 50% death rates in some cities. The prevailing estimation is at about 30% mortality for southern Europe. Sorry but thats a drop in the bucket in world population.
5000 BC 5 130
1000 BC 50 160
1 AD 170 135
1000 AD 265 165
1500 AD 425 175
1800 AD 900 250
1900 AD 1625 850
1950 AD 2515 2030
1975 AD 4080 4640
2000 AD 6120 8175

erhm, sorry, but isn't the resolution of this a *tiny* bit too rough??????

:lol:

sorry, but if we talk things that take a generation or two (forest regrow) or say 5 for the pop levels to come back, then a resolution of roughly 400 years in the time interval we look at is useless.

let me give you an example: take a sinus curve (sin x) and measure it at 0, 2pi, 4pi, 6pi. Interpolate a curve through that data.

WOHOA! sin x if a straight line! :eek:

see the problem with your data?
 
All scientists do NOT agree. If they did, there would be no GW debate. Laypersons are not the ones debunking the "GW is totally man made" theory, it is attacked by other scientists!
Just looking at the first 2 pages of Google:
_________
By Patrick J. Michaels, a professor of environmental science at the University of Virginia, is a senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-329es.html. Admittedly, the Cato Institute is a conservative thinktank.
_________
By Richard S. Lindzen, the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

"The present hysteria formally began in the summer of 1988, although preparations had been put in place at least three years earlier. That was an especially warm summer in some regions, particularly in the United States. The abrupt increase in temperature in the late 1970s was too abrupt to be associated with the smooth increase in carbon dioxide. Nevertheless, James Hansen, director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, in testimony before Sen. Al Gore's Committee on Science, Technology and Space, said, in effect, that he was 99 percent certain that temperature had increased and that there was some greenhouse warming. He made no statement concerning the relation between the two.

Despite the fact that those remarks were virtually meaningless, they led the environmental advocacy movement to adopt the issue immediately. The growth of environmental advocacy since the 1970s has been phenomenal. In Europe the movement centered on the formation of Green parties; in the United States the movement centered on the development of large public interest advocacy groups. Those lobbying groups have budgets of several hundred million dollars and employ about 50,000 people; their support is highly valued by many political figures. As with any large groups, self-perpetuation becomes a crucial concern. "Global warming'' has become one of the major battle cries in their fundraising efforts. At the same time, the media unquestioningly accept the pronouncements of those groups as objective truth.

Within the large-scale climate modelling community--a small subset of the community interested in climate--however, the immediate response was to criticize Hansen for publicly promoting highly uncertain model results as relevant to public policy. Hansen's motivation was not totally obvious, but despite the criticism of Hansen, the modelling community quickly agreed that large warming was not impossible. That was still enough for both the politicians and advocates who have generally held that any hint of environmental danger is a sufficient basis for regulation unless the hint can be rigorously disproved. That is a particularly pernicious asymmetry, given that rigor is generally impossible in environmental sciences.

Other scientists quickly agreed that with increasing carbon dioxide some warming might be expected and that with large enough concentrations of carbon dioxide the warming might be significant. Nevertheless, there was widespread skepticism. By early 1989, however, the popular media in Europe and the United States were declaring that "all scientists'' agreed that warming was real and catastrophic in its potential. "

______
And this article I really agree with:

http://www.techcentralstation.com/050305C.html.

Excerpts:

"So, what would constitute "smoking gun" evidence for human-induced global warming? I would like to suggest the following as an example of such evidence. We would have needed 50 to 100 years of accurate satellite observations (not model-based inferences) of the radiative components of the Earth's radiation budget: at least the amount of absorbed sunlight and the amount of emitted infrared radiation. It has been exceedingly difficult from the limited record of satellite measurements to extract a signal of radiation imbalance in the climate system (let alone diagnose what has caused it). Over the period of a sufficiently accurate satellite record, we would need to be able to measure an increasing imbalance between absorbed sunlight and Earth-emitted infrared radiation. Then, through additional global-scale measurements, we would need to be able to rule out natural changes in clouds, water vapor, deep ocean heat storage, and any other process that could explain some or the entire radiation imbalance.

Some believe that the recent global warmth is greater that it has been in the last 1,000 years, which by itself would be evidence for man-caused global warming. I personally don't have much faith in the indirect estimates of global temperatures before the twentieth century, but I agree that the current warmth is unlikely to be entirely natural in origin. The big question is, how much of it?"

another:
"In summary, the recent study by Hansen et al. indeed presents one possible interpretation of the available evidence, but it is a very human-centric one that assumes that natural decadal- to century-scale climate fluctuations are not to blame for at least some part of what has been recently observed. Or, using the "smoking gun" metaphor, it isn't yet clear whether mankind is the perpetrator, Mother Nature is an accomplice, or vice versa.

Nevertheless, the study represents the kind of synthesizing science that is needed in order to better understand the extent to which mankind is influencing the climate system."
 
"The present hysteria formally began in the summer of 1988, although preparations had been put in place at least three years earlier.

erhm..... as you8 said: a conservate think tank...

were you able to find any research by this guy into the subject?
I can only find, from his Cato page, these:
Trends in Precipitation on the Wettest Days of the Year across the Contiguous United States. International Journal of Climatology 24, pp. 1873-1882, 2004.

A Test of Corrections for Extraneous Signals in Gridded Surface Temperature Data. Climate Research 26, pp. 159-174, 2004.

Decadal Changes in Summer Mortality in U.S. Cities. International Journal of Biometeorology 47, pp. 166-175, 2003.

nothing on GW in peer review....

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Patrick_J._Michaels

e.g.:
But Peter Gleick, a conservation analyst and president of the Oakland-based Pacific Institute for Studies in Development, Environment and Security, said "Pat Michaels is not one of the nation's leading researchers on climate change. On the contrary, he is one of a very small minority of nay-sayers who continue to dispute the facts and science about climate change in the face of compelling, overwhelming, and growing evidence."

sorry, in a field with a few thousand people working on worldwide, I expect a handfull, especially with non.neutral funding, to voice the interests of big business. Aside from that, a few % dissenters... there's also biologists who deny evolution, after all.

No, there is NO SIGNIFICANT NUMBER of dissenters.
 
Woops crosspost.
show me a significant portion of scientists who work in the field and hove no extraneous reason to 'disbelief' (i.g. do not get funded by interest groups) who do NOT agree (studies more than say 8 years old do not count).

Also, you said 'we would not be having this discuccion here' - that's still BS, as you are a layperson.
Hansen is also funded by interest groups (the originator of GW hysteria). You're really proving my point. If all scientists agreed on the matter, then would laypersons not have to follow suit? Are you saying that the uninformed layperson is not going to listen to the consolidated scientific community? Many environmentalists accuse Americans of blindly following whatever particular viewpoint (insert "Bush agenda," "corporate agenda," or whatever nonsense there). If the scientific community agreed on GW, would these "brainless American lambs" not follow suit? Or do they only blindly follow the government?

you demand unrealistic proof
Are you admitting that the inferences based on your ice cores from 350,000 years ago arent absolute proof?

sorry, but isn't the resolution of this a *tiny* bit too rough??????
Find something better. I didnt spend a lot of time researching it. Specifically look for the portion of Europeans estimated killed in the Plague in comparison to world population. Bear in mind that Middle Age Europe gives us the most historical data because we have the most records from Europeans of that time period. Im inclined to believe the population of Africa, Asia, and North America was many times greater than that of European population during the time period.
 
sorry, in a field with a few thousand people working on worldwide, I expect a handfull, especially with non.neutral funding, to voice the interests of big business. Aside from that, a few % dissenters... there's also biologists who deny evolution, after all.
By Tom DeWeese, http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=\Commentary\archive\200412\COM20041202d.html
"What it doesn't tell you is that roughly 500 scientists from around the world signed the Heidleburg Appeal in 1992, just prior to the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro, expressing their doubts and begging the delegates not to bind the world to any dire treaties based on global warming.

Today, that figure has grown to more than 4,000 scientists. Americans aren't being told that a 1997 Gallop Poll of prominent North American climatologists showed that 83 percent of them disagreed with the man-made global warming theory."

Here are some more; if they are such a small majority why are their voices so loud?
Willie Soon, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics: "... there's increasingly strong evidence that previous research conclusions, including those of the United Nations and the United States government concerning 20th century warming, may have been biased by underestimation of natural climate variations. ... In other words, natural factors could be more important than previously assumed". [4]
Sallie Baliunas, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics: "[T]he recent warming trend in the surface temperature record cannot be caused by the increase of human-made greenhouse gases in the air". [5]
Frederick Seitz, retired, former solid-state physicist, former president of the National Academy of Sciences: "So we see that the scientific facts indicate that all the temperature changes observed in the last 100 years were largely natural changes and were not caused by carbon dioxide produced in human activities.
Robert C. Balling, Jr., director of the Office of Climatology and an associate professor of geography at Arizona State University: "At this moment in time we know only that: (1) Global surface temperatures have risen in recent decades. (2) Mid-tropospheric temperatures have warmed little over the same period. (3) This difference is not consistent with predictions from numerical climate models."
S. Fred Singer, president of the Science & Environmental Policy Project: "The surface temperature record shows a warming rate of about 0.17°C (0.31°F) per decade since 1979. However, there are two other records, one from satellites, and one from weather balloons, which tell a different story. Neither the satellite nor balloon trends differ significantly from zero since the start of the satellite record in 1979."
 
Hansen is also funded by interest groups (the originator of GW hysteria).
errm...

Have any evidence for this claim?

AFAIK Hansen is a NASA scientist working at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Edit, I forgot he actually heads up that institute now.

Is that the interest group you meant?

A lot of scientists are sceptical of climate models, rightfully so. We can't predict the weather next month, so its reasonable to conclude we can't predict the climate in 200 years.

But there is definitely consensus that anthropogenic greenhouse gasses have significantly enhanced the ability of the troposphere to retain infrared energy, i.e. the greenhouse effect.


Edit: let me add that the largest relevant professional society in the world (the American Geophysical Union) has this to say: http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/policy/positions/climate_change.shtml

Oh, and the American Meteorological Society, and the American Ascociation for the Advancement of Science agree too.

American Meteorological Society, Bull. Am. Meteorol. Soc. 84, 508 (2003).
http://www.ourplanet.com/aaas/pages/atmos02.html

Edit2: Let me add the American Institute of Physics: http://www.aip.org/gov/policy12.html

And the National Academy of Science: http://books.nap.edu/html/climatechange/

How much more consensus do you want?
 
So there's what you find: 1992 to 1997!

Sorry to say, but there has been so much published in between, if you bring this old stuff without newer data backing it up I cna only laugh! I knew why I said not older than 8 years ago.

if you want to know why their voices are so loud, listen to creationists and tobacco apologists!
he who has a business interest or is a nutty religious fanatic, screams loudest!

proven by this:
Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas
williesoon.jpg


so this is a weird combo: they only work on those issues where big business has a big interest.

Fred Seitz:
http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Seitz_Tobacco_Crimes.html

S. Fred Singer:
His most recent peer-reviewed publication on global warming appeared in EOS: Transactions of the AGU (American Geophysical Union), December 16, 1997.
hmmmmm

and then this:
http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Singer-Seitz.html

and wiki on him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._Fred_Singer
Although he considers the observed increase in CO2 and CFCs to be anthropogenic, he disagrees with IPCC conclusions about how much warming is to be expected.



so, not the best refereneces, hu?
 
The only problem with men is that they are too ignorant :rolleyes:. Bye, I will be fleeing for Mars while I still have time. When the world turns into a giant New Orleans, then you will see these old greedy businessmen trying to make boats with their own money.
 
I keep short: global warming is a fact. There is a slow natural warming, but there is also a feelabel and dangerous addinational warming caused by humans. --> consequences: it's getting hot! - Nature will beat back on us(sorry, we still depend on it)
 
Have any evidence for this claim?
I read that in researching that last bit, but Im not sure if it was on a "propagandist" site or not. But, NASA is increasingly funded by private interests due to budget cuts. GISS works closely with private universities operating under grants. http://www.giss.nasa.gov/about/. They specifically mention Columbia and the Earth Institute. Here are the partners for the Earth Institute: http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/disciplines/index.html.

GISS also works closely with the National Science Foundation who mention a number of "partners." http://www.nsf.gov/about/partners/. I am unsure if private special interest funding can legally be directly contributed to a national program like GISS.
 
killercane said:
I read that in researching that last bit, but Im not sure if it was on a "propagandist" site or not. But, NASA is increasingly funded by private interests due to budget cuts. GISS works closely with private universities operating under grants. http://www.giss.nasa.gov/about/. They specifically mention Columbia and the Earth Institute. Here are the partners for the Earth Institute: http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/disciplines/index.html.

GISS also works closely with the National Science Foundation who mention a number of "partners." http://www.nsf.gov/about/partners/. I am unsure if private special interest funding can legally be directly contributed to a national program like GISS.

well, outside grants needn't be bad - take the German Sciene FOundation for example: they get money from the industries, but it all goes into one big pot and the GSF decides independently (i.e. the people who make the dscisions are state employees) what research they fund and what not. Essentially, if you give them money, you buy a whole package deal of science - you can't pick what's funded and what's not.

I assume that this is the same for the NSF, who are a institution of high repute.
 
Gothmog said:
How much more consensus do you want?
There will never be enough consensus.

I know this, because I was once on the other end of the above line--I spent an entire WEEK arguing about Affirmative Action with a co-worker, and started giving examples of incidents where AA was working FOR white people and AGAINST minorities.

She said "great, you've got three examples. In a nation of 300 million people".

At which point I realized I could describe examples until my keyboard fell apart, and it wouldn't be enough.

I replied "well, I don't have the time to give 40,000,000 examples, so we're at a stalemate". She agreed to the stalemate, and both of us walked away with our biases intact.

While the majority of scientists do seem to say "I believe global warming is proven fact", I've seen so many of them say "however, it's very difficult to prove" that I don't think they should be saying it's proven fact.
 
killercane said:
I think Pikachu points out that reputable scientists dont point to humans as the sole cause, with which I agree.
I must point out that reputable scientists don’t claim humans to be an insignificant cause either.

Where we differ is you thinking the majority (90%? or just 51%?) of the temperature changes and global ecological changes are manmade. Its nowhere close to that.
How do you know that it is nowhere close to that? Let me see your calculations!

BasketCase said:
While the majority of scientists do seem to say "I believe global warming is proven fact", I've seen so many of them say "however, it's very difficult to prove" that I don't think they should be saying it's proven fact.
It may be hard for you to believe, but sometimes scientists succeed in doing something very difficult. Some of them are very clever people!

In the nineties your statement would have been true, but much has happened since then. It is now correct to say that anthropogenic climate change is a proven fact. If you disagree, feel free to bring some scientific reports from this millennium telling something else.
 
Wow! Just got through all this new stuff.

@killercane: glad to se here one of the GotM's top tiers. Actually, i have tried, and somewhat given up when i saw some posters so willful in "slaughtering" each other. Now that the tones have somewhat calmed down, the thread is much more interesting.

Frankly, some of the arguments posted there are difficult to catch up (for a layman, at least). But i learned some valuable things in following the thread and i'm grateful to every person that has spent time and efforts to contribute on it.

Now, if only i could see less personal attacks... i know that even the scientific debate can be vitriolic sometimes, but some people here are not specialists in the matter, nor they have an absolutely clear understanding of how the whole process works, and it would be better to treat them with a little more diplomacy.

Funnily, although my knowledge on the whole thing is much better than before the thread, i feel that my opinion has remained unchanged: global warming is real, but there's still too much uncertainity about the consequences (exp. the long-term ones) on the climate as a whole and to the effects on both the nature and the human society.

UH, just a final thought: in 250 years from now, i expect nuclear fusion to be developed at a point in which it's perfectly capable to substitute every fossil fuel.
 
Pikachu said:
It is now correct to say that anthropogenic climate change is a proven fact. If you disagree, feel free to bring some scientific reports from this millennium telling something else.


Isn't it interesting that NOT A SINGLE paper attemtping to do so has been posted? Despite all the posts about self-proclaimed experts (most of them tobacco apologists, hired mouths for big busniess, people that TODAY when the oil companies have dissassociated themselves from). Despite all the digging out of extremely dated, often since proven wrong, in one case even intentionally false, publications?

it seems GW deniers and 'man's at fault'-deniers have no ammo in scientific terms :( I wish they were right, but our climate's going down the crapper.....
 
Carlos, what are those "tobacco apologists" you're talking about? In the media, newspapers & so on it's years that i see only anti-tobacco advocates repeating their mantra. It takes a lot to find on the net some dissenting voices, and the most reliable i found (forces.org) is not sponsored by tobacco money.
 
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