Global warming and environmental catastrophe: science or myth?

Urederra said:
I was quoting Carlos,

It seems that there is a language issue here.

you took my quote nicely out of context, and since I know you're smart enough not to do that I must suspect you do this on purpose....

Moberg says that radiation is most likely the culprit FOR THE HIGHER THEN PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT VARIABILITY, not for hte RECENT WARMING TREND!


So, basically, you pretend to have read my post so superficially that you stand what I say on its head - thanks, but no thanks. :mad:
 
tR1cKy said:
Absolutely not. What i was suggesting is that people keep their heaters turned on for less time, because of the increased temperature in the heat island.

Please note that this is just a suggestion from a layman's point of view. It could be absolutely wrong or irrelevant for what i know.

Sorry, but this is quite a silly rebuttal, and the reason is obvious. We're trying to have a serious debate here.
The article actually addresses your suggestion about savings in the winter. It states that the negative effects during the summer outweigh any positive winter effects.

The point I was attempting to make was that the heat island does not really save energy on heating the city. Ok so there may be a lower requirement for dedicated heating, but only because waste energy is making up the difference. The reduced demand you suggested is illusory.
 
brennan said:
The article actually addresses your suggestion about savings in the winter. It states that the negative effects during the summer outweigh any positive winter effects.
You're referring to this:
In general, the harmful impacts from summertime heat islands are greater than the wintertime benefits, and most heat island reduction strategies can reduce summertime heat islands without eliminating wintertime benefits.
The problem is that the website doesn't tell why. I was expecting someone to give reasons why the wintertime saving isn't enough.

Anyway, mine was just a layman's suggestion that could be even wrong, for what i know. My objection was referred to the way you debunked my statement. It wasn't serious, and it gave the impression that you were just arguing for the sake of it.

The point I was attempting to make was that the heat island does not really save energy on heating the city. Ok so there may be a lower requirement for dedicated heating, but only because waste energy is making up the difference. The reduced demand you suggested is illusory.
This is a serious objection. However, as you said before, the same website suggests that there is an energy saving during the winter, only that it is not enough to counterbalance the increased energy demand during summertime.

Carlos & Gothmog: i'm curious to know what are your interpretations of the last graph Urederra posted. For what i can see, not counting the 1998 spike, there's a slow trend upward anyway.
 
tR1cKy said:
The problem is that the website doesn't tell why. I was expecting someone to give reasons why the wintertime saving isn't enough.
Waste energy usually ends up being heat anyway so heating somewhere is easy and efficient - you put in a radiator and the air in a building heats up. Air conditioning requires circulating the air around a building and removing the energy from it, which then has to be dumped somewhere, not an efficient process.
 
Microwave Sounding Units' (MSU's) also measure lower stratospheric temperatures, so need to be interpreted carefully.

Here is the relevant data from ground based instruments as I already posted in this thread:
HadCRUG.gif


Indeed this is exactly the data that is on the end of both the Mann and Moberg plots.

Mann's graph as presented by Urederra ended in 1998 because that's the one he chose to present. Mann has published other updated plots. It is not clear to me why Urederra keeps attacking Mann's credibility. He is a well respected scientist.

Here's another plot from the Hadley center that is monthly averages updated more recently.
HadCRUG.gif


There's nothing different to interpret here. If temperatures do go down again scietists certainly wont just wave their arms about and say "this is unexplainable natural variability" as it seems Urederra would like. They will look for an explanation that includes a forcing mechanism, just like they always do.
 
Also in the news (good old basic CNN again): scientists quoted as saying that establishing a link between global warming and its various alleged symptoms (such as more powerful hurricanes....) "is proving to be exceedingly difficult".

Link coming once I dig it up, I think it's on my other PC. Don't worry, Carlos, this one isn't from 1997--it's from like two weeks ago. :)
 
BasketCase said:
Also in the news (good old basic CNN again): scientists quoted as saying that establishing a link between global warming and its various alleged symptoms (such as more powerful hurricanes....) "is proving to be exceedingly difficult".

Link coming once I dig it up, I think it's on my other PC. Don't worry, Carlos, this one isn't from 1997--it's from like two weeks ago. :)

nah, no worries!

the problem with single 'scientists' quoted on 'news' is that they tend to be be 'news' - i.e. anti-mainstream. Not that that's bad per se, but usually they are nutcases or paid by dubious sources...... They make great 'news', but usually, a lot is media hyperbole or, well, simply BS.

let's see that link - I'll stick with Max-Planck-Gesellschaft until then :)
 
To keep it easy for everyone to understand. Many ground based instruments are biased by the heat islands Tr1cky was talking about. Those ground thermometers are influenced by the heat produced by the cities nearby. So easy to understand that I hope you don't claim your language barriers to try to disqualify.

Satellite measurements avoid the heat island effect.
UAH5152.gif


Hope you guys have learnt something today.
Have a nice day.
 
Found it:

Yet Another News Article on Global Warming

(CNN) -- Is global warming really a threat?

Absolutely, respond most scientists, but they have only recently been able to approach a basic agreement about our changing climate.

First, the Earth has gotten warmer. Since 1850, average global temperatures have risen about .6 degrees Celsius, the United Nations says. Greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide released by humans burning fossil fuels and clearing land are the likely culprits. Sea levels have also risen about 4 to 8 inches during the past century, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Second, the concentration of greenhouse gases (or GHG) in the atmosphere is near its highest point in recorded history. Since the Industrial Revolution, concentrations of carbon dioxide, a potent greenhouse gas, have risen 30 percent.

Based on studies of air bubbles trapped in ancient ice, today's levels are higher than any time in at least 420,000 years, said David King, chief science adviser for the British government. If GHG concentrations rise, as expected, concentrations could cross what some consider a "dangerous" threshold, although that designation is contentious.

Finally, almost every scientist agrees upon one thing: the future is highly uncertain. While most scientists support projections by the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that temperatures will rise 1.4 degrees Celsius (2.5 degrees Fahrenheit) to 5.8 degrees Celsius (10.4 degrees Fahrenheit) by 2100, the scientific consensus shows cracks beyond this point. (Clues to climate's future)

John Christy, director of Earth System Science Center and critic of severe warming predictions, says forecasting the future "gets messy quickly."

"The Earth system has more unknowns that we are generally willing to acknowledge," he told CNN via e-mail. "It is very difficult for [scientists] to say, 'I don't have a clue.'...Our pronouncements often express more confidence than is warranted given the level of ignorance in which we presently operate."

Climate models inherit this uncertainty. The first crude models -- spinning aluminum dishpans in the 1950s -- have evolved into some of the world's most sophisticated computer simulations replicating the interaction between the atmosphere, oceans and continents. Yet the system's complexity -- a mathematical swamp of biological cycles, ocean circulation, geologic emissions and even solar activity -- injects guesswork into the science.

Despite the uncertainties, says Drew Shindell, a NASA climate modeler at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, climate models, at least in the short term, are good and "getting better."

"The results become steadily less reliable as you go out in time," Shindell said. "We can do a pretty good job 25 to 30 years out; we have a rough idea 50 years out. By the time you get into 100 years, there's a lot of things we can't really say."

The biggest questions in the climate equation are water vapor and airborne particles called aerosols. Water vapor acts like a huge sponge soaking up energy absorbed by greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide. It is a wild card for climate modelers because water vapor may also cool the planet by increasing cloud cover. Aerosols -- which can also cool or warm the planet -- may have other unknown effects.

But Shindell says dozens of climate models run by scientists around the world convincingly describe a world sweating under the influence of greenhouse gases which trap the sun's energy.

"I think we can say very clearly, with the same amount of energy going in and less going out, [the Earth] has to warm up," he said. "That's elementary physics."

This growing confidence is the result of progress being made with climate models and deciphering cryptic clues about ancient climate in tree rings, lake sediments and ice cores. Paleo-climate measurements, once unattainable, now offer a record of global temperatures stretching back 750,000 years.

"There is no doubt that humans are warming the planet. That's very clear now," says Jeffrey Severinghaus, a geoscience researcher at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography. "The data is beautiful. It's very strong. Humans are changing the climate, and we're expected to change it a lot more in the future."

Global warming 'alarmists'?
Scientists were not always so convinced.

As early as 1979, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences reported with "high confidence" that a 1.5 to 4.5 degree Celsius temperature increase was likely if carbon dioxide levels doubled. It was greeted by a chorus of skepticism.

However, the past two decades have also seen the retreat of once noisy critics. BP, a major energy company, says it is now taking "precautionary action" against climate change by cutting greenhouse emissions and investing in mitigation of greenhouse gases.

Nonetheless, a minority of scientists reject what they call "alarmist" global warming on scientific grounds. They raise three major objections, which most researchers agree remain troublesome.


Natural climate variability is not well understood and may be greater than once thought.


Computer models are oversimplifications that cannot simulate the complexities of the real climate.


Temperature extrapolations of the past are not precise enough to make dire conclusions about "normal" warming.

Richard Lindzen, a respected meteorologist from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, says in light of these uncertainties, pronouncements about climate change are both self-serving and unscientific.

"Scientists make meaningless or ambiguous statements. Advocates and media translate statements into alarmist declarations. Politicians respond to alarm by feeding scientists more money," said Lindzen at a scientific conference this January. He added that the accepted evidence is "entirely consistent with there being virtually no problem at all."

This sentiment is in the extreme minority of the scientific community, said Richard Sommerville, meteorologist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, who drew a parallel with proposing that HIV does not cause AIDS.

"[Lindzen] is taken seriously because he's capable of excellent science," Sommerville said. "[But] most of the scientific community thinks he's mistaken... People are given a fair hearing and then we move on."

New research
Plenty of questionable scientific claims muddy the discussion on climate change. Extreme weather events such as last year's hurricane season in the Atlantic are not conclusively linked to global warming, say scientists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. It is exceedingly difficult to establishing a causal link between global warming and these events.

Even melting glaciers, such as the rapidly receding ice cap on Africa's Mount Kilimanjaro or the collapse of an Antarctic ice shelf, while consistent with climate change, cannot be decisively linked to the phenomenon.

But major studies released this year appear to buttress the belief the Earth is undergoing significant warming and will continue to do so.

Tim Barnett, a researcher with the Scripps Institute of Oceanography, told the American Association for the Advancement of Science in February that the world's oceans are heating up from the top down. Barnett found the world's six ocean basins show a .5 degree Celsius increase since the 1940s in a pattern that could only be explained by human-induced warming.

An Oxford University report, published in the journal Nature, used computers networked over the Internet to conduct one of the most powerful computer climate simulations ever attempted. It appeared to confirm that predictions of warming of at least 2 degrees Celsius -- and perhaps as high as 11 degrees Celsius -- were possible.

Ultimately, scientists who believe global warming is underway say uncertainties do not undermine the significance of the research.

"When you go to your doctor, and she says you're due for a heart attack, you don't turn around and say medicine is imperfect even if she can't predict the date of your heart attack," Sommerville said. "You take it seriously. I think climate science is in that position now."

The pertinent bits: naturally there's the bit with somebody saying the Earth is definitely warming up; the part with the scientist saying that establishing a connection between global warming and events such as stronger hurricanes and glacier melting is "exceedingly difficult"; and the scientist saying "It is very difficult for [scientists] to say, 'I don't have a clue.' "

Sums up my concerns about the problem nicely (Urederra already covered my concern about the fact that our measurements of the planet's temperature might be flat-out wrong--or worse, faked). The "It is very difficult for [scientists] to say, 'I don't have a clue' " bit, especially, expresses my concern that some of the experts involved in the question of global warming (I have no idea how many) are under natural human pressures to avoid saying "I don't know", and to agree with the majority opinion.
 
Urederra said:
To keep it easy for everyone to understand. Many ground based instruments are biased by the heat islands Tr1cky was talking about. Those ground thermometers are influenced by the heat produced by the cities nearby. So easy to understand that I hope you don't claim your language barriers to try to disqualify.

Satellite measurements avoid the heat island effect.
UAH5152.gif

so your graph shows a significant warming trend over the entire timespan measured..... what's your point?

Hope you guys have learnt something today.
Have a nice day.
[/quote]
yeah, I learnt that SmartAlec has no point, have a good weekend.
 
My point is that Moberg's graph also shows a warming trend during the years 800-1000 with no CO2 levels rising. And the Holocene optimum (about 6000 years ago) was up to 4 degrees warmer than nowadays, with lower CO2 levels than today's.

Relax. You are very tense in lasts posts. ;).
 
Urederra said:
My point is that Moberg's graph also shows a warming trend during the years 800-1000 with no CO2 levels rising. And the Holocene optimum (about 6000 years ago) was up to 4 degrees warmer than nowadays, with lower CO2 levels than today's.

Relax. You are very tense in lasts posts. ;).

:rolleyes:

and for the 1,000,001st time, you roll out monocausality :rolleyes:

It ain't working - as the Max-Planck-Gesellschaft results AGAIN show: historic temperature trends can easily be explained without human activity (mind you: the increased methane is human ctivity, just isn't counted as such), while the recent trend can't - just because temperatures were different in the past doesn't mean CO2 has no effect.

You are beating a so dead horse it falls more into my field of work than gothmogs - it is so dead it's already fossilized :lol:
 
carlosMM said:
:rolleyes:

and for the 1,000,001st time, you roll out monocausality :rolleyes:

It ain't working - as the Max-Planck-Gesellschaft results AGAIN show: historic temperature trends can easily be explained without human activity (mind you: the increased methane is human ctivity, just isn't counted as such), while the recent trend can't - just because temperatures were different in the past doesn't mean CO2 has no effect.

You are beating a so dead horse it falls more into my field of work than gothmogs - it is so dead it's already fossilized :lol:

source? :lol:


20 years of temperature rising while CO2 levels rising is nothing compared to the Holocene optimum or the Medieval optimum. There are milenia of temperature changes while CO2 levels had been stable. It is 20 years vs. millenia. Since Mann and Ruddiman couldn't explain the medieval optimum based on their now obsolete CO2 levels theory, they had to cheat on their graph. McIntyre and McKitrick first and Moberg afterwards prove them wrong. The dead horse is yours.

You are talking about a CO2 increase of 70 ppm. Are you trying to convince me that 300 ppm does not have effect on temperature but 370 ppm has a leading effect on temperatures on Earth?. Why are those extra 70 ppm so special?

Methane.... yadda, yadda, yadda. The concentration of methane in air is even lower that CO2. The most abundant Green House Gas is, by far, H20. Whatever CO2 or Methane does to temperatures, H20 does it many times stronger because H2O in air is many times greater than CO2. The influence of CO2 cannot be as strong as the influence of H20 since H20 is many times more abundant than CO2.


argghhhh.... your horse is dead, man.


There is this movie in theaters now, Serenity. :rotfl:
 
BasketCase said:
Does this article say something that contradicts what Gothmog and Carlos says? :confused: To me it seems like your article address the scientific consensus and the challenges pretty well, considering that it is written by a journalist. What is your point in bringing us this article again? And why do you present the same article as you posted in post #274 as “Yet Another News Article on Global Warming”? Do you think recycling articles are good for the environment maybe? :lol:
 
Just popped in to comment on the MSU records post by Urederra.

First, of course the hadley center ground based temperature records are corrected for heat island effects. :rolleyes:

Climate researchers are not stupid.

Second, don't know where you got that plot but let me link you to the data source: http://www.ssmi.com/msu/msu_data_description.html

Note that only the TLT data product claims to be a good measure of tropospheric temperature and even it includes some stratospheric data.

It is in quite good agreement with ground based measurements (as good as one would expect). There has been recent work on some smaller corrections (which improve agreement), but even without that here's the raw data:
MSU_AMSU_Channel_TLT_Trend_Map_v02_1.png
Figure 3. Color coded map of decadal trends in MSU channel TLT (1979 - 2004). Data poleward of 82.5° North and 70° South, as well as areas with land or ice elevations above 3000 meters, are not available and are shown in white.

and note that the link above also shows the stratospheric cooling that is another confirmation of the greenhouse effect.

I'm not going to argue Mann and Moberg with you anymore. Especially when you call Mann a 'cheat', you are a lost cause in that respect. Know that Moberg would disagree with you.
The concentration of methane in air is even lower that CO2. The most abundant Green House Gas is, by far, H20. Whatever CO2 or Methane does to temperatures, H20 does it many times stronger because H2O in air is many times greater than CO2. The influence of CO2 cannot be as strong as the influence of H20 since H20 is many times more abundant than CO2.
You understand very little. The point with H2O vs. CO2 and CH4 is that we are not increasing atmospheric concentrations of H2O except indirectly (the positive feedback I already mentioned).

We cannot, H2O vapor is in equilibrium with the liquid (oceans etc.) and so its concentration (as a vapor) only depends on global temperature (first order).

Also as I noted, most H2O bands are already saturated.
 
Cheese, don't you ever get so tired of getting pwn3d that you feel like checking your facts?

Here's the IR spectrum of H2O I already posted:
H2O.gif


Now here's CH4:
CH4.gif


Unless you want to dispute NIST as a source of gas phase IR data you've been
dee_pwned.jpg
 
Gothmog said:
Just popped in to comment on the MSU records post by Urederra.

First, of course the hadley center ground based temperature records are corrected for heat island effects. :rolleyes:

Climate researchers are not stupid.

Maybe they are, since Mann et al keep using ground based temperature records, since the the satellite ones don't show what they want.



Gothmog said:
I'm not going to argue Mann and Moberg with you anymore. Especially when you call Mann a 'cheat', you are a lost cause in that respect. Know that Moberg would disagree with you.

I am not the one that caught Mann red handed, McIntyre and McKritik were. And Moberg as well. And I am not the only one that thinks he cheated. He is being audited by the US congress.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4693855.stm

What do you have to say about that?

I have already prove that Moberg disagree with Mann. You have to prove that Moberg would desagree with me.


Gothmog said:
You understand very little. The point with H2O vs. CO2 and CH4 is that we are not increasing atmospheric concentrations of H2O except indirectly (the positive feedback I already mentioned).

We cannot, H2O vapor is in equilibrium with the liquid (oceans etc.) and so its concentration (as a vapor) only depends on global temperature (first order).

Also as I noted, most H2O bands are already saturated.

Methane and CO2 concentrations on air are so minute compared to H2O that they don't have any effect. It is like dropping a mL of hot water into a frozen lake. There are no gasses with superpowers, H2O is far more abundant that CO2 and CH4 and that is why H2O is the ONLY gas to be taken into account.


BTW, Those H2O bands you claim there are saturated... last time I check they aren't. The spectra you copied is not representative of the atmosphere absorption since, as you said, they were taken with saturated gasses.

And you have yet to explain the Holocene optimum and the medieval optimum as well. Can you explain them based on CO2 levels? You haven't even tried. And you want to explain 20 year of warming based on CO2 levels when there is no correlation during the rest of the climate history?

You have chosen not to explain what does not fit with your theory. That is not science.

And, maybe you have to control yourself a bit. You were already warned in one of Ainwood's thread. Remember?

Serenity is a good movie. Recomended.
 
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