• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

Global warming and environmental catastrophe: science or myth?

Slightly? Paleez, they have models of warming based on current pollution outputs and they are very accurate (they weren't awhile ago because of some factors not being put in but those have since been fixed) The warming isn't natural, its caused by humans. Our pollution is almost the only factor. (few others, but mostly too small to mention in comparative scale) And the warming is much faster compared to what scientists make of earths previous history of warming and cooling.

Its not just not to lose places like Florida, new orleans any number of islands and miles and miles of coast line. This isn't a game of AC. There is many other things effected, I've already mentioned them earlier(those are just a sampling), no wish to repeat myself.
 
Dida said:
Well, I am in perfectly good health, and even here in NYC, the air quality is totally great and refreshing. I do not deny that the environment might be going on a downward slope, however, it is nowhere as bad as the end of the world.
Some of you are just ridiculous. I don't see how the environment can be a threat to my health at this point, or how it can be in the near future.
Are you kidding me? The air quality in NYC is horrible. You're just used to the terrible air, so it doesn't bother you.
 
No, air quality in NYC is excellent, not just by comparing to other big cities, Tokyo, Shanghai or Paris and such, but it is even good when comparing to some other mid size or small city.
You just happened to be in a bad area, where people throw garbage on the street, and hence induce that bad smell, which you took for bad air quality.

alrite too late now and i finally finished working. gotta sleep and get ready for tomorrow.
now, people you can contribute more to the world by working rather than whinning about trees getting cut down and such.
 
TruePurple said:
Slightly? Paleez, they have models of warming based on current pollution outputs and they are very accurate (they weren't awhile ago because of some factors not being put in but those have since been fixed) The warming isn't natural, its caused by humans. Our pollution is almost the only factor. (few others, but mostly too small to mention in comparative scale) And the warming is much faster compared to what scientists make of earths previous history of warming and cooling.

Its not just not to lose places like Florida, new orleans any number of islands and miles and miles of coast line. This isn't a game of AC. There is many other things effected, I've already mentioned them earlier(those are just a sampling), no wish to repeat myself.
Read it and weep:
 

Attachments

  • sunvstemp.gif
    sunvstemp.gif
    32.9 KB · Views: 143
Not that FL2 will read this, but I do very much ask him to provide sources for his arguements. (He has a reputation for posting bad science)

I am the Future said:
Myth.

Duh...
What makes you think that? :confused:
 
Dida said:
No, air quality in NYC is excellent, not just by comparing to other big cities, Tokyo, Shanghai or Paris and such, but it is even good when comparing to some other mid size or small city.
You just happened to be in a bad area, where people throw garbage on the street, and hence induce that bad smell, which you took for bad air quality.
No, this wasn't a putrid smell, but rather the smell of pollution, which is completely different. It's not just NYC. All big cities have the same smell of pollution (at least of the ones I've been to, e.g. London, Paris, Madrid, Rome, NYC, Atlanta. Only D.C. doesn't seem to have as much smog to me).
 
As my scientific beliefs tend to be fact-based and not faith-based, global warming is a reality, not a myth. It is a fact that the Earth is warming. It is a well-supported theory that this warming is caused by pollution, a theory which I support because it is backed by a myriad of facts.
 
TruePurple said:
Whats that suppose to prove FL2?
He's attempting to demonstrate that global temperature corresponds with average insolation (as per the graph) however, I have a sneaking suspicin the place he got the data from is not very reputable.
 
Well its certainly not english. If your going to post a graph in another language the least you can do is explain.

All the more recent data clearly shows the connection between periods of heavy pollution in the world and global temperature increases & glacial thaw. Data no reputable scientist has disputed.
 
I'll start by pointing out that the temperature data I've seen show that the planet appears to be at the END of the warm trend in its 250-thousand-year cycle, not the beginning.

With that out of the way: while global warming is a possibility, I don't think the evidence on the subject is anywhere near conclusive. The fact that the people right here in this thread (who are above average intelligence to begin with) are so bitterly divided about it demonstrates that pretty clearly.

My biggest caveat about the subject is that the one-degree spike we saw in the last century, while definite, is no different from any of the other spikes that have occurred naturally throughout the planet's history.

Second, we're trying to measure the amount of heat energy in a PLANET. A gigantic system with a whole lot of widely varying interacting systems. Land, water, air, living things, weather--all process heat differently. Clouds have a warming effect (water vapor is a greenhouse gas) and a cooling effect (reflection of radiation back into space). Water stores heat a lot more efficiently than the land does (meaning that water warms up by a smaller amount when it absorbs the same amount of heat), so you have to consider where all the heat is going. One of the web sites I browsed while examining the subject had a pair of graphs showing temperature in the troposphere and stratosphere over a couple hundred years--these two adjacent layers in the atmosphere had NO relation to each other on the graphs! Warm trends in the troposphere did NOT have matching trends in the stratosphere. Cleary there was a problem there--what kind, I don't know. Could have been that people were simply measuring wrong.

Third, the subject has been completely subsumed by political bickering. Anybody who voices doubt about the subject is immediately accused of lying, taking dollars from Evil Corporations, just plain being an idiot, or whatever else. There's a great deal of pressure on scientists to produce the "correct" findings. In that kind of environment, science is no longer science--it's peer pressure.

Fourth, it's known that temperature changes in BOTH directions can produce varying forms of environmental disaster--because it's happened lots of times. We've seen it in past Ice Ages; the amount of habitable land on the planet was lower, obviously (the rest being buried under gigantic sheets of ice), and of the land that was habitable, a larger percentage of it was desert or tundra. The amount of usable farmland was much smaller. TruePurple made a couple mentions of insects becoming more active; what he left out was that ALL life becomes more active as it gets warmer. Plants included. That means a larger food supply for all other animals as well as insects.

I have no objection to reducing greenhouse gases--but doing so at the expense of human welfare is a bad idea. Many of the planet's wars get fought over that sort of thing.
 
Do you not find it curious that the nation that denies its existance most fervorantly, is also the nation that contributes the most?
 
[tab]The dispute in this thread or among politicians does not reflect a dispute among scientists (non of us are professional scientists, neither are most politicians, certainly not oil tycoon bush) There is no dispute among scientists. Theres volumes and volumes of data to back it up. Glacier's have retreated very fast in the last few decades and disappearing coastline & islands is another easily observable symptom of the larger phenomenon.

[tab]*As far as more plant life. It takes time for a ecosystem to adjust to change. This is very fast change, whole permafrost forests falling into marsh in the span of years is not enough time for many of the surrounding creatures and plants to adjust. Only insects and other such mass producing life forms can handle such change with ease.

[tab]And slight changes in temp like I said mean drought, flood, more violent weather and large (compared to overall planet temp changes) changes in temp in local areas, getting a number of degrees hotter(a few degrees is the difference between heatstroke) or in some cases colder.

[tab]The science of global warming and human kinds responsibility in it as well as its far reaching effect. While maybe not catastrophic effect, is overall negative. Said science is hard fact backed up by mountains of data.
 
Humans are also a species created by nature, and therefore human activities and civilization are a part of this planet's nature.
 
TruePurple said:
*****The dispute in this thread or among politicians does not reflect a dispute among scientists (non of us are professional scientists, neither are most politicians, certainly not oil tycoon bush) There is no dispute among scientists. Theres volumes and volumes of data to back it up. Glacier's have retreated very fast in the last few decades and disappearing coastline & islands is another easily observable symptom of the larger phenomenon.

******As far as more plant life. It takes time for a ecosystem to adjust to change. This is very fast change, whole permafrost forests falling into marsh in the span of years is not enough time for many of the surrounding creatures and plants to adjust. Only insects and other such mass producing life forms can handle such change with ease.

*****And slight changes in temp like I said mean drought, flood, more violent weather and large (compared to overall planet temp changes) changes in temp in local areas, getting a number of degrees hotter(a few degrees is the difference between heatstroke) or in some cases colder.

*****The science of global warming and human kinds responsibility in it as well as its far reaching effect. While maybe not catastrophic effect, is overall negative. Said science is hard fact backed up by mountains of data.

A key trend is the obvious increase over the last 100 years - seeming period of greatest statistical accuracy - and increasing :hmm: increase - this appears to bare no relation to such 'natural' changes as induced by solar activity, etc - unless, of course, the 'naturalists' are arguing another 'dinosaur killer'...
 
French is not Swahili.

The graph shows the relationship between insolation (incoming solar radiation) and earth's average temperature. The correlation is undeniable, and even in later years deviation is minimal. The conclusion any sentient person would come to is that CO2 emissions from technology are not the main cause, or even a significant factor in, global warming.

That said, I still think getting away from fossil fuels is a good idea, for a number of reasons. It would improve other aspects of the environment, marginalize the radical governments of the countries where oil is exported from, and just generally be good.
 
FearlessLeader2 said:
French is not Swahili.

The graph shows the relationship between insolation (incoming solar radiation) and earth's average temperature. The correlation is undeniable, and even in later years deviation is minimal. The conclusion any sentient person would come to is that CO2 emissions from technology are not the main cause, or even a significant factor in, global warming.

That said, I still think getting away from fossil fuels is a good idea, for a number of reasons. It would improve other aspects of the environment, marginalize the radical governments of the countries where oil is exported from, and just generally be good.

Ozone layer thinning. It could still be related (though I find this data dubious).

SonicX said:
Humans are also a species created by nature, and therefore human activities and civilization are a part of this planet's nature.

Semantics.
 
FearlessLeader2 said:
French is not Swahili.

The graph shows the relationship between insolation (incoming solar radiation) and earth's average temperature. The correlation is undeniable, and even in later years deviation is minimal. The conclusion any sentient person would come to is that CO2 emissions from technology are not the main cause, or even a significant factor in, global warming.

That said, I still think getting away from fossil fuels is a good idea, for a number of reasons. It would improve other aspects of the environment, marginalize the radical governments of the countries where oil is exported from, and just generally be good.
Of course it diesn't matter if you got it from a bogus source...

We want a source!
 
FearlessLeader2 said:
French is not Swahili.
Your graph is not in French. It is in Danish! I think I have to take this as proof that you don’t know where that graph came from.

But I think I know where it comes from. If I am not mistaking, it is from: Friis-Christensen, E., and K. Lassen, "Length of the solar cycle: An indicator of solar activity closely associated with climate," Science, 254, 698-700, 1991. That report has however been withdrawn because it contains factual errors. It has been proven that the authors have cheated while producing those results.
 
Top Bottom