Global warming and environmental catastrophe: science or myth?

Mountain-God said:
1. Claim all scientist are wrong based on a occasional evidences of error by a few.
2. Amatuer scientist then claim own knowledge and opinion superior to all remaining scientists.

Global warming does not exist and is not caused by humans, say amatuer scientist with little to no real experience, but reading a couple articles.

When challenged on this amatuer scientist say 'you amatuer scientist trying to claim the same thing - that hypocracy - therefore you wrong. I'm still right'.

Oh, the curly trails we leave, and all to justify ego and assumption and predjudice - mmm warm blanket predjudice.

:)

Are you trying to reply to somebody's posts?

If it is so, say the names please.

Mann's paper have been proven wrong by using data that has been accepted in Nature, one of the top two scientific journals in the world. Mann's himself had to confess that the data presented in his 1998 Nature paper was wrong. Data is the only important thing in science.


The scientific commutiny disapproves the use of asserting authority to prove a theory, those days when the only reason to prove that what the teacher was saying is right was "because the ancient greeks said so" finished in Newton's era. Newton proved that the ancient greeks were wrong by using experimentation and mathematics. Nobody asserts authority in science since that.

Data please, not authority.
 
carlosMM said:
So you take his data and link it with newer, better temp graphs (we did in lecture). Guess what...... the trend still holds.

No, the trend doesn't hold. there is not relation between CO2 increase and temperature increase. Futhermore, the 20th century highest temperature is not longer the highest. There were higher tempertaure records, guess when, yeah, in the Medieval Warm Period, when the Vikings built colonies and did farming in Greenland.

http://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/hockey_stick/mcintyre_02.pdf

That's the pdf of McIntyre paper published in a peer reviewed paper. Not revoked so far. Look at figure 8.

Here it is the same figure 8, I found it in the web

http://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/hockey_stick/mcintyre_corrected.jpg

So, 20th century highest wasn't the millenia highest after all. So, how can it be explained?

It seems that you are still attacking Dr Lomborg (he is doing statistics, he has a Ph. D. in that) instead of attacking the data. You are still attacking McIntyre instead of the data he presented.... ummm, bad thing.

Don't you realize that during the three posts I posted I put some bait for you so I have already prepared the data that revokes the claims you are going to post?

CarlosMM said:
take time, I'll be gone for almost two weeks soon, too (holiday). Hope I can get the Little Ice age and MWP papers before that.

Oh, yes, you DID realize. That's why you are taking "Holiday"... :lol: Have a good "holiday" :lol:
 
Urederra said:
Other couple of things. Ruddiman is Professor of the University of Virginia, it says so in the paper Carlos posted. Guess who is also professor of the University of Virginia. Yeah, Michael E. Mann. They are Buddies!!!
Pikachu said:
:hmm: Isn’t this what you would call an attack ad hominem?

No it isn't. I haven't rejected their arguments by saying that they don't have the expertise or they are funded by dubious organizations. McIntyre and McKitrick have already proven them wrong by using the very same data that Mann reported. I just pointed out that they work in the same University. I haven't used that information to desqualify them.
 
Well, to keep the thread alive I am going to post a link to a special Nature issue about climate change. (It is Nature, the mother of all peer reviewed papers).

http://www.nature.com/news/infocus/climatechange.html

There are several articles in that issue. An interesting one is this:

-East Antarctica puts on weight. (according to data recorded by satellite, Antarctica ice cap is growing)

Ooops... Didn't the media say that the ice caps where melting? That article must be wrong, it is against what we think it was happening. But it is published in Nature. What's happening in the world???????

And I insist again. I am the sceptical. I am the one that doesn't believe 100 % that there is a global warming and I am the one that is more skeptical about that possible global warming is caused mainly by human factors. I am not the one who has to provide data and papers to prove that. The ones that believe those two statement are the ones who have to provide the data and papers. Where are they?
 
The climate is changing and always will change... I think the real question is whether we do anything to increase or decrease the problem.
 
Urederra said:
Oh, yes, you DID realize. That's why you are taking "Holiday"... :lol: Have a good "holiday" :lol:
Calling Carlos a liar is a very stupid thing to do as many of us have met him and he is a very honest and reputable person. Edit: It is plain you do not even know him through his posting here, suffice to say Carlos does not "run away" from arguments ever, let alone in a subject he knows a lot about...

He also knows a hell of a lot about this subject and I respect his opinion a lot more than somone who resorts to this kind of argument. :rolleyes:
 
Urederra said:
Oh, yes, you DID realize. That's why you are taking "Holiday"... :lol: Have a good "holiday" :lol:
You have been an interesting source of information so far. Please don't disqualify yourself with such a low-level personal attack. I'm sure you can do better.
 
tR1cKy said:
You have been an interesting source of information so far. Please don't disqualify yourself with such a low-level personal attack. I'm sure you can do better.


OK. Sorry about that.

I missed some support from you when I was the attacked one, anyways. I think you have being partisan in this case.

Sorry about that again. Have a nice holiday, Carlos. :goodjob:
 
Urederra said:
Well, to keep the thread alive I am going to post a link to a special Nature issue about climate change. (It is Nature, the mother of all peer reviewed papers).

http://www.nature.com/news/infocus/climatechange.html

There are several articles in that issue. An interesting one is this:

-East Antarctica puts on weight. (according to data recorded by satellite, Antarctica ice cap is growing)

Ooops... Didn't the media say that the ice caps where melting? That article must be wrong, it is against what we think it was happening. But it is published in Nature. What's happening in the world???????

And I insist again. I am the sceptical. I am the one that doesn't believe 100 % that there is a global warming and I am the one that is more skeptical about that possible global warming is caused mainly by human factors. I am not the one who has to provide data and papers to prove that. The ones that believe those two statement are the ones who have to provide the data and papers. Where are they?
Antarctica gaining ice is actually a consequence of most global warming models. Anatarctica is so cold, that the biggest consequence of moderate global warming is increased amount of moisture that the air can accept and thus more water to percipitate onto the continent. Sea level change however, is still an issue, because Greenland's, sibera's glacial and mountop ice melting is expected to more then outwiegh the increased mass of Anarctica.
 
I apologize again. Just in case somebody thinks I was beeing cynical in last post.

Have a good holiday, Carlos.

I will keep good manners from now on.

That's a good point, perfection. So, we agree that Antarctica is gaining ice. Good starting point. It looks like Gaia is balancing the weather. I like the original Gaia idea of a planet having mechanisms that autorregulate weather and keeps the conditions stable.


My impression, though, is that the original idea of Gaia is lost or corrupted, but it is just an impression of mine. Any thoughts about that?
 
OK, lunch time and another shot at global warming.

Let me first dispel FL2’s favorite plot, originally posted by gene90 in an earlier thread and totally discredited by me at that time. He posted in here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3006690&postcount=44

The famous lassen curve from the article "Length of the solar cycle: An indicator of solar activity closely associated with climate"

Here’s my original response.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2527451&postcount=200

The upshot is that through some data manipulation lassen did show a correlation, but even with that manipulation the current trends are out of wack (with the 11 year solar cycle, the data used in that publication).

Here’s a plot of the real solar forcing along with glaciation over the last million years, just for fun,
Milankovitch_Variations.jpg
This is known as the Milankovitch cycle.

Oh and this quote by FL2
The graph shows the relationship between insolation (incoming solar radiation) and earth's average temperature. The correlation is undeniable, and even in later years deviation is minimal. The conclusion any sentient person would come to is that CO2 emissions from technology are not the main cause, or even a significant factor in, global warming.
indicates just how little he understands, or even looks at what he posts.

Good job to Pikachu here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3007411&postcount=72

Now Basketcase:
Clouds have a warming effect (water vapor is a greenhouse gas) and a cooling effect (reflection of radiation back into space).
You have learned well young padawan.
Water stores heat a lot more efficiently than the land does (meaning that water warms up by a smaller amount when it absorbs the same amount of heat), so you have to consider where all the heat is going.
That is what climate models do.
One of the web sites I browsed while examining the subject had a pair of graphs showing temperature in the troposphere and stratosphere over a couple hundred years--these two adjacent layers in the atmosphere had NO relation to each other on the graphs! Warm trends in the troposphere did NOT have matching trends in the stratosphere. Cleary there was a problem there--what kind, I don't know. Could have been that people were simply measuring wrong.
This is not hard to explain. Greenhouse gasses in the troposphere warm it through increased absorbtion of infrared radiation (the primary heat source down here). Greenhouse gasses in the stratosphere actually cool it because the main heat source is due to ozone, the greenhouse gasses act like a radiator cooling it. This is also the cause of the difference between surface measurements and MLS type satellite measurements of temperature.

Finally Urederra and the Medieval warm period, etc.

It is pretty well agreed now that this was a local phenomena and not a globally warm period. This was played out in Science and Nature around 2001-2002. But the ‘little ice age’ does seem to have been global, and shows up in temperature reconstructions such as the Mann one (there are others). Some recent ones are:

Climate change of the last 2000 years inferred from borehole temperatures: data from Hungary
Global and Planetary Change Volume: 41, Issue: 2, April, 2004, pp. 121-133
Bodri, L. ; Dövényi, P.

Ground warming patterns in the Northern Hemisphere during the last five centuries
Earth and Planetary Science Letters Volume: 227, Issue: 3-4, November 15, 2004, pp. 169-177
Beltrami, Hugo ; Bourlon, Evelise

Temperature variability over the past millennium inferred from Northwestern Alaska tree rings
Climate Dynamics Volume: 24, Issue: 2-3, February 2005, pp. 227 - 236
D’Arrigo, Rosanne ; Mashig, Erika ; Frank, David ; Wilson, Rob ; Jacoby, Gordon

Ground Surface Warming History in Northern Canada Inferred from Inversions of Temperature Logs and Comparison with Other Proxy Climate Reconstructions
Pure and Applied Geophysics Volume: 162, Issue: 1, January 2005, pp. 109 - 128
Majorowicz, Jacek A. ; Skinner, Walter R. ; Safanda, Jan

The unique thing about Mann’s work was that he compiled all available records and did a global analysis.

McIntyre and McKitrick excluded much of the instrumental temperature record in their reconstruction. Specifically that from North America. They also misused PCA (principle component analysis).

Here’s a reference of the first response: Jones, P.D., Mann, M.E., Climate Over Past Millennia, Reviews of Geophysics., 42, RG2002, doi: 10.1029/2003RG000143, 2004.

A simplified version is here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=121#more-121

There will be additional publications on this topic shortly. I’m sure you know that the controversy between surface and satellite measurements has been cleared up recently.

Don’t just dismiss it because it includes analysis by Mann (who understands the issues better). If you have a problem with the analysis please bring it to light here.

Finally, let me wrap up by saying that it is a fact that anthropogenic activities have significantly and demonstrably increased the infrared opacity of the troposphere. It is undeniable that this affects planetary energy balance in the short term, and the whole earth system in the longer term.

I prefer the term 'climate change' to global warming, and it is pretty clear that anthropogenic aerosols are as important as greenhouse gasses to climate change.

This to me is the real issue, not paleoclimate reconstructions where boundary conditions are unknown and resolution is poor, but current climate studies where many more variables are constrained. The topic being not if anthropogenic climate change is a fact, but what its effect will be.
 
Urederra said:
I am the one that doesn't believe 100 % that there is a global warming and I am the one that is more skeptical about that possible global warming is caused mainly by human factors.
Sorry for not asking this before, but what parts of the theory is it you are sceptical about? Is it the theory that humans are increasing the greenhouse gas concentrations in our atmosphere, or is it that increased greenhouse gas concentrations trap more energy inside earth, or is it that more trapped energy leads to increased global temperature, or maybe it is that increased global temperature affects the climate you are sceptical about? Or is it something else? Please give us a little more details about what exactly you are sceptical about.
 
Urederra, no offence taken - I perfectly well understand the impression you got.

Gothmog has answered you well, methinks - better (as he is a researcher in this field) than I could have, who would have been an intermediate between my colleague and you.
 
Urederra said:
OK. Sorry about that.

I missed some support from you when I was the attacked one, anyways. I think you have being partisan in this case.
Uh! Frankly, i didn't notice a clear personal attack against you. I'll check carefully from the 1st post of yours and, if something likely pops out, it will be my turn to apologize.

I'm just trying to keep the thread alive and interesting. No intention to be partisan. I could have been unintentionally though. Anyway, thanks for your goodwill.
 
@tR1cKy
You said some interesting things but right now I'm not interested in debating (busy, tired) just in clearing up two things.

PBS=Public Broadcasting Service
A nonprofit commercial free station in the US run almost exclusively on donations. They have a partnership with the BBS service of britian and some BBS material is run on them. They are highly respectable in general and as a source of information. If you can not trust them, then you can not trust almost any source.

Webpage links,
You can find all sorts of material online, but if you find a number of agreeing webpages at the top of a google search, this indicates some generally recognized truth to them. When I offer webpage links I do so as a small piece of evidence, not proof.
 
Mountain-God said:
Apples and oranges - Marie Curie on the subject of climate change would be lost - given that she could, not only, not be everywhere, but also could not lauch satellites, take 1.5mile long ice-core samples, etc, etc, etc.
Bullpuckies. She could scrounge up a few computers, get satellite and ice-core data off the web (hell, we in CFC are already doing that!), and churn the data looking for correlations. Or, she could come up with an innovative theory that doesn't even NEED a computer.

Science is a mix of hard work and innovation. Sure, you can crunch numbers until the hard drive on your PC explodes, but if you crunch using the wrong formulas, you're going to get the wrong results. Astronomers of old didn't need computers to figure out why Mars would suddenly start moving backwards in the sky. Einstein didn't need a Pentium CPU to figure out E=MC^2. Nobody in this thread needs a computer to figure out if the number 3,762,584,991 is divisible by 9 (it may look like Windows Calculator is needed, but if you know the trick, you can do that one in your head in a matter of seconds!).
 
Urederra said:
My impression, though, is that the original idea of Gaia is lost or corrupted, but it is just an impression of mine. Any thoughts about that?
The self-balancing nature of the planet has been pretty much lost in the shuffle. But then, these days human beings are always making up sci-fi stories about this or that factor getting knocked out of balance and setting off Doomsday. Not just on this one issue, either. :)

I'm confident that if there was anything on a less-than-Biblical scale that could set off a Doomsday chain reaction, it would have happened already. Keep in mind that our ecosystem can survive a direct meteor impact to the head.
 
BasketCase said:
The self-balancing nature of the planet has been pretty much lost in the shuffle. But then, these days human beings are always making up sci-fi stories about this or that factor getting knocked out of balance and setting off Doomsday. Not just on this one issue, either. :)
If you only knew 1% of earth's history that I know you'd know this self-balancing is a total myth, dreamt up by some idiots who wanted to feel cozy.

Show me just ONE period of a few million years that indicates this kind of stability.....

I'm confident that if there was anything on a less-than-Biblical scale that could set off a Doomsday chain reaction, it would have happened already. Keep in mind that our ecosystem can survive a direct meteor impact to the head.
erh, again, you simply pretend to know stuff you don't. doomsday chain reaction? well, photosynthesis triggered one, as did e.g. the development of land plants. And various meteorite impacts, volcanism etc.

learn you Earth History before making claims about Earth's history! :lol:
 
Well, now I see leaving this guy on my ignore list was a mistake. It lets him get away with too much.
carlosMM said:
If you only knew 1% of earth's history that I know you'd know this self-balancing is a total myth, dreamt up by some idiots who wanted to feel cozy.

Show me just ONE period of a few million years that indicates this kind of stability.....
The meteor that struck the planet sixty-five million years ago. That one incident nearly destroyed the entire biosphere--

--but the biosphere restored itself.

OWNED.

erh, again, you simply pretend to know stuff you don't. doomsday chain reaction? well, photosynthesis triggered one, as did e.g. the development of land plants. And various meteorite impacts, volcanism etc.
Once again, you're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. If a Doomsday thingy had ever happened, we would not be here. We're here because the Earth's biosphere recovered from everything that ever pushed it out of balance. The system is dynamically stable. Push it out of balance, it restores itself. If a system is dynamically UNstable, the slightest push destroys it.
 
nice

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