Global Warming Thread #647: Supporters and Skeptics!

Che Guava

The Juicy Revolutionary
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Just found this on the BBC: a list of 10 common criticisms of the IPCC and their counter-criticisms.
Climate scepticism: The top 10

What are some of the reasons why "climate sceptics" dispute the evidence that human activities such as industrial emissions of greenhouse gases and deforestation are bringing potentially dangerous changes to the Earth's climate?

As the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) finalises its landmark report for 2007, we look at 10 of the arguments most often made against the IPCC consensus, and some of the counter-arguments made by scientists who agree with the IPCC.





1. EVIDENCE THAT THE EARTH'S TEMPERATURE IS GETTING WARMER IS UNCLEAR


Sceptic:

Instruments show there has been some warming of the Earth's surface since 1979, but the actual value is subject to large errors. Most long-term data comes from surface weather stations. Many of these are in urban centres which have expanded in both size and energy use. When these stations observe a temperature rise, they are simply measuring the "urban heat island effect". In addition, coverage is patchy, with some regions of the world almost devoid of instruments. Data going back further than a century or two is derived from "proxy" indicators such as tree-rings and stalactites which, again, are subject to large errors.

Counter: Warming is unequivocal. Weather stations, ocean measurements, decreases in snow cover, reductions in Arctic sea ice, longer growing seasons, balloon measurements, boreholes and satellites all show results consistent with the surface record of warming. The urban heat island effect is real but small; and it has been studied and corrected for. Analyses by Nasa for example use only rural stations to calculate trends. Recently, work has shown that if you analyse long-term global temperature rise for windy days and calm days separately, there is no difference. If the urban heat island effect were large, you would expect to see a bigger trend for calm days when more of the heat stays in the city. Furthermore, the pattern of warming globally doesn't resemble the pattern of urbanisation, with the greatest warming seen in the Arctic and northern high latitudes. Globally, there is a warming trend of about 0.8C since 1900, more than half of which has occurred since 1979.


2. IF THE AVERAGE TEMPERATURE WAS RISING, IT HAS NOW STOPPED

Sceptic :Since 1998 - almost a decade - the record, as determined by observations from satellites and balloon radiosondes, shows no warming.

Counter: 1998 was an exceptionally warm year because of the strong El Nino event. Variability from year to year is expected, and picking a specific warm year to start an analysis is "cherry-picking"; if you picked 1997 or 1999 you would see a sharper rise. Even so, the linear trends since 1998 are still positive.

3. THE EARTH HAS BEEN WARMER IN THE RECENT PAST
Sceptic :The beginning of the last Millennium saw a "Mediaeval Warm Period" when temperatures, certainly in Europe, were higher than they are now. Grapes grew in northern England. Ice-bound mountain passes opened in the Alps. The Arctic was warmer in the 1930s than it is today.

Counter : There have been many periods in Earth history that were warmer than today - if not the MWP, then maybe the last interglacial (125,000 years ago) or the Pliocene (three million years ago). Whether those variations were caused by solar forcing, the Earth's orbital wobbles or continental configurations, none of those causes apply today. Evidence for a Mediaeval Warm Period outside Europe is patchy at best, and is often not contemporary with the warmth in Europe. As the US National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration (Noaa) puts it: "The idea of a global or hemispheric Mediaeval Warm Period that was warmer than today has turned out to be incorrect". Additionally, although the Arctic was warmer in the 1930s than in the following few decades, it is now warmer still.

4. COMPUTER MODELS ARE NOT RELIABLE
Sceptic:
Computer models are the main way of forecasting future climate change. But despite decades of development they are unable to model all the processes involved; for example, the influence of clouds, the distribution of water vapour, the impact of warm seawater on ice-shelves and the response of plants to changes in water supply. Climate models follow the old maxim of "garbage in, garbage out".

Counter :
Models are simply ways to quantify understanding of climate. They will never be perfect and they will never be able to forecast the future exactly. However, models are tested and validated against all sorts of data. Over the last 20 years they have become able to simulate more physical, chemical and biological processes, and work on smaller spatial scales. The 2007 IPCC report produced regional climate projections in detail that would have been impossible in its 2001 assessment. All of the robust results from modelling have both theoretical and observational support.


5. THE ATMOSPHERE IS NOT BEHAVING AS MODELS WOULD PREDICT
Sceptic: Computer models predict that the lower levels of the atmosphere, the troposphere, should be warming faster than the Earth's surface. Measurements show the opposite. So either this is another failing of the models, or one set of measurements is flawed, or there are holes in our understanding of the science.

Counter : Lower levels of the troposphere are warming; but measuring the exact rate has been an uncertain process, particularly in the satellite era (since 1979). Readings from different satellites need to be tied together, and each has its own problems with orbital decay and sensor drift. Two separate analyses show consistent warming, one faster than the surface and one slightly less. Within the uncertainties of the data, there is no discrepancy that needs to be dealt with. Information from balloons has its own problems but the IPCC concluded this year: "For the period since 1958, overall global and tropical tropospheric warming estimated from radiosondes has slightly exceeded surface warming".

6. CLIMATE IS MAINLY INFLUENCED BY THE SUN

Sceptic: Earth history shows climate has regularly responded to cyclical changes in the Sun's energy output. Any warming we see can be attributed mainly to variations in the Sun's magnetic field and solar wind.

Counter : Solar variations do affect climate, but they are not the only factor. As there has been no positive trend in any solar index since the 1960s (and possibly a small negative trend), solar forcing cannot be responsible for the recent temperature trends. The difference between the solar minimum and solar maximum over the 11-year solar cycle is 10 times smaller than the effect of greenhouse gases over the same interval.

7. A CARBON DIOXIDE RISE HAS ALWAYS COME AFTER A TEMPERATURE INCREASE NOT BEFORE

Sceptic :Ice-cores dating back nearly one million years show a pattern of temperature and CO2 rise at roughly 100,000-year intervals. But the CO2 rise has always come after the temperature rise, not before, presumably as warmer temperatures have liberated the gas from oceans.

Counter : This is largely true, but largely irrelevant. Ancient ice-cores do show CO2 rising after temperature by a few hundred years - a timescale associated with the ocean response to atmospheric changes mainly driven by wobbles in the Earth's orbit. However, the situation today is dramatically different. The extra CO2 in the atmosphere (35% increase over pre-industrial levels) is from human emissions. Levels are higher than have been seen in 650,000 years of ice-core records, and are possibly higher than any time since three million years ago.

8. LONG-TERM DATA ON HURRICANES AND ARCTIC ICE IS TOO POOR TO ASSESS TRENDS

Sceptic: Before the era of satellite observation began in the 1970s, measurements were ad-hoc and haphazard. Hurricanes would be reported only if they hit land or shipping. Arctic ice extent was measured only during expeditions. The satellite record for these phenomena is too short to justify claims that hurricanes are becoming stronger or more frequent, or that there is anything exceptional about the apparent shrinkage in Arctic ice.

Counter :The Arctic Climate Impact Assessment project notes that systematic collection of data in parts of the Arctic began in the late 18th Century. The US National Hurricane Center notes that "organised reconnaissance" for Atlantic storms began in 1944. So although historical data is not as complete as one might like, conclusions can be drawn. And the IPCC does not claim that global warming will make hurricanes more frequent - its 2007 report says that if anything, they are likely to become less frequent, but more intense.

9. WATER VAPOUR IS THE MAJOR GREENHOUSE GAS; CO2 IS RELATIVELY UNIMPORTANT

Sceptic: The natural greenhouse effect keeps the Earth's surface about 33C warmer than it would otherwise be. Water vapour is the most important greenhouse gas, accounting for about 98% of all warming. So changes in carbon dioxide or methane concentrations would have a relatively small impact. Water vapour concentrations are rising, but this does not necessarily increase warming - it depends how the water vapour is distributed.

Counter: Water vapour is essentially in balance with the planet's temperature on annual timescales and longer, whereas trace greenhouse gases such as CO2 stay in the atmosphere on a timescale of decades to centuries. The statement that water vapour is "98% of the greenhouse effect" is simply false. In fact, it does about 50% of the work; clouds add another 25%, with CO2 and the other greenhouse gases contributing the remaining quarter. Water vapour concentrations are increasing in response to rising temperatures, and there is evidence that this is adding to warming, for example in Europe. The fact that water vapour is a feedback is included in all climate models.


10. PROBLEMS SUCH AS HIV/AIDS AND POVERTY ARE MORE PRESSING THAN CLIMATE CHANGE


Sceptic : The Kyoto Protocol will not reduce emissions of greenhouse gases noticeably. The targets were too low, applied only to certain countries, and have been rendered meaningless by loopholes. Many governments that enthuse about the treaty are not going to meet the reduction targets that they signed up to. Even if it is real, man-made climate change is just one problem among many facing the world's rich and poor alike. Governments and societies should respond proportionately, not pretend that climate is a special case. And some economists believe that a warmer climate would, on balance, improve lives.

Counter : Arguments over the Kyoto Protocol are outside the realms of science, although it certainly will not reduce greenhouse gas emissions as far or as fast as the IPCC indicates is necessary. The latest IPCC Working Group 2 report suggest that the impact of man-made climate change will on balance be deleterious, particular to the poorer countries of the tropics, although colder regions may see benefits such as increased crop yields. Investment in energy efficiency, new energy technologies and renewables are likely to benefit the developing world.


link


Sooooo...anyone have a criticisms of their own...?
 
"Err uh.. I support Global WARMING!!!

"Err.. warming for some... small American flags for everyone else!"
 
What if you agree that parts of the world are warming and parts cooling( thats why its called "global climate change") but its blown way out of proportion. What if your sick of hearing about CO2 when methane and water vapor are better "GHG" but you don't hear about those. What about how there is a "consensus" and any one who disagrees no mater how deep their credentials are get called tools of big oil or big business.
 
If the ice in Greenland melts, dilutes the salt in the North Atlantic and stops the ocean current, thereby causing an Ice Age in Europe, wouldn't that make up for the lost ice in Greenland?
 
What if you agree that parts of the world are warming and parts cooling( thats why its called "global climate change") but its blown way out of proportion.

In that it's not as bad as some make it out to be, or that we can cope better with climate change than some say...?

What if your sick of hearing about CO2 when methane and water vapor are better "GHG" but you don't hear about those.

See point # 9 :) (well, for water at least...)

What about how there is a "consensus" and any one who disagrees no mater how deep their credentials are get called tools of big oil or big business


Well, for the most part, there is a consensus. Of course there will always be skeptics, but we also reserve the right to be skeptical about how they came to thier position (and that goes for both sides of the debate)
 
Che, couldn't you organize a vote on this subject (with options allowing to belief/disbelief global warming and to believe disbelief human cause)?
 
If the ice in Greenland melts, dilutes the salt in the North Atlantic and stops the ocean current, thereby causing an Ice Age in Europe, wouldn't that make up for the lost ice in Greenland?


No as the ice age would only result in a slight decrease in temperature over the time, but the rest of the world will be heating up. So over all the temperature in Europe will just lag behind everyone else in going up.
 
Just found this on the BBC: a list of 10 common criticisms of the IPCC and their counter-criticisms.

Sooooo...anyone have a criticisms of their own...?
Yes 1. I'll illustrate.

"Watervapour is a much more important greenhouse gas."
"To get rid of it it simply needs to rain, you can't get rid of CO2 that easily"
"Watervapour is a much more important greenhouse gas."
*walks off*
"I win!"
 
Wow, what a highly intelligent comment...:(

EDIT: I just re-read this below post of mine and realized that it comes across rather rude. I do not mean to insult you, but your one-liner above strikes me as typical for a mental attitude that I think both irresponsible and dangerous. I'll let this post stand, but please when you read it keep in mind that this topic is one that gets me easily exited. I do not mean to speak as harsh as I do. /EDIT


well, to anyone willing to study the issue the evidence is there to see. I have met many people who says that's not so, but not one of them was able to argue the issue in an informed and honest way. Rather, they tend to stagger from fallacy to fallacy.

By making the claim that there is nobody among the thousands of people and organizations around the world who actively go out and try to inform people that can bring you evidence you - in my experience - admit of either being quite ignorant of science or unwilling to accept anything as evidence. I call that intellectual dishonesty. Basically, you shut your eyes, plug your ears and mentally go 'yaddayaddayadday.....' when you might hear evidence.

Sure there are people who really think the evidence presented is insufficient - they tend to lack the knowledge of science required, coupling this lack with an extreme distrust concerning experts and seem to think they can outsmart hundreds of highly qualified researchers worldwide simply by putting on their 'smart alek' mode. Not gonna work.

So unplug your ears, open your eyes - and if you are unwilling to accept what the experts say, then go and do the research yourself. But don't go arrogantly asserting that there is no evidence. It is an insult to the experts as well as you own intelligence.
 

Yep, that one's quite interesting! Same as the Arctic ice melting much faster than the worst forecast, this indicates that the models give us a general trend, but that detail aspects can be significantly off - which is in fact even more worrying! If all played out as in the main models we'd at least know for sure what exactly is going to happen. The way things are we know the main mechanisms, the main 'players', and the way we tweak some of the players - but we do not really know all the rules. Care to bet your planet on a pair of deuces?
 
EDIT: I just re-read this below post of mine and realized that it comes across rather rude. I do not mean to insult you, but your one-liner above strikes me as typical for a mental attitude that I think both irresponsible and dangerous. I'll let this post stand, but please when you read it keep in mind that this topic is one that gets me easily exited. I do not mean to speak as harsh as I do. /EDIT

Why do you get so emotional? So you think I meant to say something which you are convinced is wrong. Fine. Would you respond the same way if I said the earth is flat? How about if I claim New York is in China? (I'm not just directing the question to you, but to all others who act like you)

well, to anyone willing to study the issue the evidence is there to see. I have met many people who says that's not so, but not one of them was able to argue the issue in an informed and honest way. Rather, they tend to stagger from fallacy to fallacy.

By making the claim that there is nobody among the thousands of people and organizations around the world who actively go out and try to inform people that can bring you evidence you - in my experience - admit of either being quite ignorant of science or unwilling to accept anything as evidence. I call that intellectual dishonesty. Basically, you shut your eyes, plug your ears and mentally go 'yaddayaddayadday.....' when you might hear evidence.

I didn't claim anything at all.

Sure there are people who really think the evidence presented is insufficient - they tend to lack the knowledge of science required, coupling this lack with an extreme distrust concerning experts and seem to think they can outsmart hundreds of highly qualified researchers worldwide simply by putting on their 'smart alek' mode. Not gonna work.

60 years ago, hundreds of highly qualified researchers claimed the (so-called) "Aryan race" was superior to the rest of mankind. Having a degree doesn't give one a monopoly on the thruth.

So unplug your ears, open your eyes - and if you are unwilling to accept what the experts say, then go and do the research yourself. But don't go arrogantly asserting that there is no evidence. It is an insult to the experts as well as you own intelligence. .

I'm not willing to accept what anyone says (when it comes to science) unless they back it up. I didn't assert anything. Why does all this remind me of a religion?


I know you did not want to insult me, no offense taken.
My statement was not designed to display an irresponsible or dangerous attitude. Frankly, I did not even state that I don't believe in CO2 warming. What I was trying to say (to Ball Lightning) is that where I come from we don't believe in an obligation to provide reverse proof. What I mean by that is this: some people state that the earth's warming up is caused by CO2 levels rising which is caused by human behaviour. Fine. Interesting hypothesis. I would like to read more about it. The first question is of course; where's the evidence? (no matter how ignorant you think I am, you'll probably admit that's a fair question). I think I'm entitled to ask that question. If somebody states I committed a crime, it's up to them to provide the evidence. It's not up to me to provide eveidence that it isn't true. I didn't assert there is no evidence, I just stated that I didn't see it.

Your answer is basically: "everybody says it's true, so it is true". (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, no matter how emotional you are about this subject, please try to follow my thinking here. I saw a lot of hoaxes in my relatively short life. I saw perverted ideas come and go. Ideas about which food types are healthy or not (they reverse those ideas every 10 years). The idea that Russians are robots (I'm from Europe and lived through the cold war). "the internet will galvanize our economy in such a way that we'll have decades of low inflation and high growth". "If we all work 36 hours, we'll have less unemployment" .Just to name a few examples. I see hoaxes on television every single day. "Buy our toothbrushes, there swinging counterclockwise moves will keep your teeth healthy". "Get our shampoo, it'll make your hair healthier" (never mind hair is dead material). "Drive electric cars, so you won't cause polution" (noone asks where the electricity comes from). "Nuclear power is evil. Only right-wing bastards believe in that" (in the mean, we get our power from France which is -that's right- 90% nuclear).
And the strange things about these 'public believes'? People believe it. What did little Adolph say? (I'm no fan, don't get me wrong): "the masses fall easier victim to a big lie than to a small one". I think he was right.

I can imagine you thinking "what has all this to do with the subject at hand?". Well, it's quite simple. I have been 'cheated' to believe something that later turned out to be not true so many times that I just don't believe things anymore just like that. I'm open to evidence, particularly if the evidence is provided by independent scientists (so not scientists who work for a political organization such as the UN and no scientists who are funded by politicians or goverment or anybody who could possibly have a stake at arriving at a certain outcome). I'm even fair enough to admit I'm wrong if it turns out that's the case.

I seriously wonder if there is such evidence though. Frankly, I wonder how people can be so arrogant to claim they know how an incredibly complicated system such as the earth's climate works if they can't even predict tomorrows dollar rate. Nevertheless, I'm totally open to it. Just show it and I'll read it (not immediately, if I had so much time I wouldn't be a part-time civer).
 
I'm skeptical of Global Warming, merely because of the political horseshat behind it. Every time someone calls for awareness of Global Warming they also clamor for quasi-socialism and land redistribution, etc.
 
Part_Time_Civer:
I couldn't really believe that your original snappy one-liner was intended to be an honest question! if is was, then I apologize! It sounded just like the flippant remarks people make whop are in total denial - and that is where global warming deniers have a lot in common with religious people.

Now you are quite right: if one makes a claim, one has to bring proof. And experts can err, or deliberately lie. So asking for proof is always the right thing - if you intended to do just that, then I simply misunderstood the tone of your post.

My answer to this is not 'everybody says...' - even if all but one human on the planet make the same claim it does not mean it is true. Rather, I am saying that there is a world-wide consensus among all those people who study the issue in detail. This is a pretty good indication that they are correct.

So if you want to be shown the evidence - easily done, but it can cost you an awful lot of time. It really depends on what you already know. If you want to, you can PM me and I will try to find you internet and print publications that give you a complete picture of the science. But I need to know where to start - do you know about the physical and chemical properties of gasses? Do you have a general idea of the Carbon Cycle? Ocean circulation? CO2-sinks? PM me!


As for your not believing scientists with an 'agenda' (I take your words to imply that term:
Yes, it is a good idea to look critically at work that was paid for by an interest group. but you will have to distinguish carefully between order work - 'study this and we pay you for the study', and work done via the usual grant systems. The money comes from a government organization (National Science Foundation in the US, e.g.), but nobody is influencing the results in any way. You apply for funding to study something, you get it - and all they ask at the end is a report on what you did, plus copies of any publication that came out of it. Nobody tells you what to do - you decide! Nobody tells you what to find - your research leads you to findings. And that is how most scientists work, through independent grants, or (professors) a tenure researcher who due to tenure can't be pressured any way anyways.

Obviously, such people will often join committees of the UN or their government on issues related to their field - but that does not mean that their research is tainted! I do not really know how some people come to think that the UN pays researchers to tell certain stories! Usually, these scientists become members of the councils because of their expertise gained through independent research!

Addressing your 'aryan race' issue:
While you are correct, you can not transfer this into today's science and use it to dismiss results. The processes of how science works have changed a lot. If you read the publications those 'experts' back then wrote you can quickly find that they made their claims not based on facts, on studies, on statistical analyses, but rather on a Weltanschauung. Today, no reviewer would recommend to have them printed, and no journal would print them! If someone claims, in a scientific publication, that 'black people commit more crimes', he would have to bring a study that show this and is applicable to the situation he writes about. Usually this is done by citing such a study (or -ies), so theoretically there is room for error: the study you quote may be wrong. But reviewers will check some of the citations, and often know quite well where the fallacies in such works can be found. I had a reviewer tell me: 'Go there yourself and check the material - that publication you quote is wrong'.
 
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