God exists

[warpus]

Does is really matter what I believe?

In the context of a conversation about the existence or lack of existence of God, your beliefs about the existence of God matter, yes.

I mean, you could claim that your beliefs don't matter at all, and only hard science does, but I would be surprised to hear such a position, coming from you.

 

[Borachio]

Maybe what Mr Fly means is that God's existence, or lack of it, doesn't depend on whether we believe he/she/it does.

Which might be true. Or it might not be. I don't have enough information to determine the truth of the matter. Though given what I know of the rest of the world I'd be inclined to think it is true. Notably, just believing in something doesn't affect its truth value. Usually.

 

[warpus]

Well, it doesn't at all, you're right, but if someone has an opinion on the matter - it has got to have originated somewhere.. hopefully a logical process that could be shared with others and which could help others arrive at their own logical conclusions.

So say if we were discussing the consumption of chicken - and I told you guys that I believe that chicken shouldn't be left out of the fridge for a week because whenever I've done it - I got really sick. Then that's useful information in the context of a discussion about whether leaving out chicken out of the fridge for a week is a good idea or not.

So yes, people's beliefs can contribute to any conversation. They are usually bundled with some sort of a thought process that lead to the belief - which in itself can be useful, such as my experience with smelly chicken.

 

[GenMarshall]

I know that I'm late to the party, but I have doubts that god exist if he allows bad things and misfortune to good people.

 

[Borachio]

Um...

That doesn't disprove the existence of God, though, does it?

It disproves the existence of a benevolent God, or rather a God who seems to be benevolent to human beings.

But maybe benevolence isn't a natural attribute of God at all.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, maybe God exists but doesn't really give a crap about us. Or doesn't even know we exist.

 

[Borachio]

Or maybe human beings and God differ about what's good for them.

 

[warpus]

God: "Those humans, they work in such mysterious ways."

 

[timtofly]

In the context of a conversation about the existence or lack of existence of God, your beliefs about the existence of God matter, yes.

I mean, you could claim that your beliefs don't matter at all, and only hard science does, but I would be surprised to hear such a position, coming from you.

Maybe what Mr Fly means is that God's existence, or lack of it, doesn't depend on whether we believe he/she/it does.

Which might be true. Or it might not be. I don't have enough information to determine the truth of the matter. Though given what I know of the rest of the world I'd be inclined to think it is true. Notably, just believing in something doesn't affect its truth value. Usually.

I have believed several times that God does not exist, but God keeps notifying me that he does, so I just accept the fact and live my life the best I can. I am pretty sure there are those who question such experiences. I am constantly brought to tears whenever a human acts in a selfless (not selfish) way. Then I ask myself what drives humans to do that. I am sure that many here have their reasons, but every example cements one particular reason in my mind, even though most may reject it.

Or maybe human beings and God differ about what's good for them.

Especially if God actually gave the Law to Moses. That contained some very restrictive guidelines. Any one who could keep those and still enjoy life, has my admiration, and pity.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I know that I'm late to the party, but I have doubts that god exist if he allows bad things and misfortune to good people.

What is a misfortune?bad things? If God allows socalled bad things its only for greater good but our limited human way of approaching a reality and seeing a good quite often completely misses that. We tend to think of what is good for us certain way but God may see it as something completely unsatisfactory. The secret is that God is never going to be satisfied unless we are like it -- infinite, divine and consciously immortal and undercover he is pushing the whole creation cirque in that direction. Then one day when you wake up to your own immortality you will be like: well that was really fun I want some more....

Yeah, maybe God exists but doesn't really give a crap about us. Or doesn't even know we exist.

If either was the case God wouldnt be the God. The problem here is rather that God knows its capacity so God is willing to wait while we are mostly only aware of/identify with our limitations...

Or maybe human beings and God differ about what's good for them.

This is more likely then anything else...

God: "Those humans, they work in such mysterious ways."

Also this...


Let me post something related from Sri Aurobindo:

If mankind could but see though in a glimpse of fleeting experience what infinite enjoyments, what perfect forces, what luminous reaches of spontaneous knowledge, what wide calms of our being lie waiting for us in the tracts which our animal evolution has not yet conquered, they would leave all & never rest till they had gained these treasures. But the way is narrow, the doors are hard to force, and fear, distrust & scepticism are there, sentinels of Nature, to forbid the turning away of our feet from her ordinary pastures.

 

[warpus]

If either was the case God wouldnt be the God.

Why not? If God is simply the entity that is responsible for the creation of the universe, then it is very possible that God doesn't know about us - or doesn't care about us the same way we don't care about the ant colony that's in your backyard.

If you are refusing to accept this as a possibility, then you have to accept that your definition of God is specialized enough for it to probably be influenced heavily by a specific religion. I am merely talking about the generic God - since we do not know which religion is right about God, if any, and since we don't know anything about God at all - including whether he/she/it actually exists or not - since I'm approaching the question from this angle, I have to be all inclusive and refuse to presume to know anything about God at all - except for the basics, such as "Probably created the universe", and so on.

As such, God could have easily created the universe and left to work on other ones - not caring about this one at all. Or it could have been an accident, created in his lab - a speck of mold under his desk that he isn't aware of either. Or many other scenarios in which he doesn't know or doesn't care about us or our existence at all.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Why not? If God is simply the entity that is responsible for the creation of the universe, then it is very possible that God doesn't know about us - or doesn't care about us the same way we don't care about the ant colony that's in your backyard.

If you are refusing to accept this as a possibility, then you have to accept that your definition of God is specialized enough for it to probably be influenced heavily by a specific religion. I am merely talking about the generic God - since we do not know which religion is right about God, if any, and since we don't know anything about God at all - including whether he/she/it actually exists or not - since I'm approaching the question from this angle, I have to be all inclusive and refuse to presume to know anything about God at all - except for the basics, such as "Probably created the universe", and so on.

As such, God could have easily created the universe and left to work on other ones - not caring about this one at all. Or it could have been an accident, created in his lab - a speck of mold under his desk that he isn't aware of either. Or many other scenarios in which he doesn't know or doesn't care about us or our existence at all.

Remember God is supposed to be omnipresent, omnipotent. How can something be omnipresent or omniscience if it doesnt know about us? Also his not "giving a crap" would be rather a sign of incapacity.

 

[PhroX]

Remember God is supposed to be omnipresent, omnipotent. How can something be omnipresent or omniscience if it doesnt know about us? Also his not "giving a crap" would be rather a sign of incapacity.

Why should God be omnipresent and omnipotent? There's no reason to require God to have such attributes even if you feel that God as a creator is neccesary.

 

[warpus]

Remember God is supposed to be omnipresent, omnipotent. How can something be omnipresent or omniscience if it doesnt know about us? Also his not "giving a crap" would be rather a sign of incapacity.

Some people say that God is supposed to be omnipresent and/or omnipotent.

Since we don't know for sure, and we don't even know if God exists, I am not going to stick to any such specific definition of God - and am casting my net wider. If it was so easy to discover facts about God, then we wouldn't be having this discussion - as such we have to assume that we don't really know anything about him/her/it.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Why should God be omnipresent and omnipotent? There's no reason to require God to have such attributes even if you feel that God as a creator is neccesary.

I think we are discussing God as an absolute reality not god as special force within universal existence.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Some people say that God is supposed to be omnipresent and/or omnipotent.

Since we don't know for sure, and we don't even know if God exists, I am not going to stick to any such specific definition of God - and am casting my net wider. If it was so easy to discover facts about God, then we wouldn't be having this discussion - as such we have to assume that we don't really know anything about him/her/it.

Will eternal and infinite do for you? Then you are facing the same problem becouse the infinite knowledge is what omniscience precisely means and God cant be God if does not include infinite space at any given time aka omnipresence.
If non of these apply then you arent discussing God...

 

[warpus]

Will eternal and infinite do for you?

If God isn't infinite then he isn't God?

I'm sorry, but since we don't know anything about God, I don't think we should be making such assumptions.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

If God isn't infinite then he isn't God?

I'm sorry, but since we don't know anything about God, I don't think we should be making such assumptions.

God = uncreated infinite eternal reality; possible initiator of the existence of physical universe

god = force which is in part responsible for creation and functioning of universe but not independent from some other agent which brought it into existence

which one do you want to talk about?

 

[warpus]

God = Possible initiator of the universe or multiverse

And that's already a bit too much in terms of assumptions for my tastes.. but you've got to start somewhere..

 

[Borachio]

I have believed several times that God does not exist, but God keeps notifying me that he does, so I just accept the fact and live my life the best I can. I am pretty sure there are those who question such experiences. I am constantly brought to tears whenever a human acts in a selfless (not selfish) way. Then I ask myself what drives humans to do that. I am sure that many here have their reasons, but every example cements one particular reason in my mind, even though most may reject it.

Yes. You've alluded to this sort of experience before. I can only guess what you might mean; and that I've had a handful of similar experiences myself. But for me, I think, I've just put them down to some kind superstitious imaginings - assuming that our experiences were in any way similar. It's difficult. You're not very forthcoming about them. But I can understand your reluctance.

Especially if God actually gave the Law to Moses. That contained some very restrictive guidelines. Any one who could keep those and still enjoy life, has my admiration, and pity.

I don't know what you mean. I can't imagine anything more restrictive than the Golden Rule. Nor anything harder to keep. Nor, indeed, anything simpler to conceive. I just don't understand the need for any other guidelines.