God exists
- Thread starter Naokaukodem
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The ultimate guidelines should lead one to realising ones onennes with God and Universe.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Since we know absolutely nothing about God, how could we possibly guess where it/he/she might have come from?
No, since I have no idea about anything about God, I am going to not make any such assumptions - that would be silly. You might as well ask why I'm not assuming that God has a beard and/or is in the form of a burning bush.
No, since I have no idea about anything about God, I am going to not make any such assumptions - that would be silly. You might as well ask why I'm not assuming that God has a beard and/or is in the form of a burning bush.
But you do. Your own consciousness is a reflection - no matter how imperfect - and can concieve of things beyond itself.
Besides the question of something triggering the conception of the universe and its own origin you can take as purely scientific one. Its all the same.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
In the end you are making assumptions about God - and I am not, beyond "Might have created the universe", which seems reasonable, in the sense that some sort of assumption needs to be made to get started.
You even say yourself that what you claim about God is "what he is supposed to be". We have no idea if this is true or not. So let's not even go there.
You even say yourself that what you claim about God is "what he is supposed to be". We have no idea if this is true or not. So let's not even go there.
Or what? you will get burnt? Not sure what your plan is. Are you going to ignore millenias of human culture and spiritual development not to speak that the question is interesting from scientific point of view as well?
I have already posted this video in the other thread. You can skip to 8:30:
Link to video.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
No. Let me remind you how this whole exchange started:
Me: Let's assume that God created the universe perhaps, but that's it.
You: God has to be infinite in order for it to be God
Me: Since we don't know anything about God, let's not assume that - it wouldn't be prudent.
The onus is you to explain how you know that God is infinite. You don't - and nobody else does either.
I think its pretty prudent to separate the case into two possible scenarios:
1. The agent responsible is infinite/wasnt created.
2. The agent responsible was created by some other and that too was created ad infinitum.
No matter what you do infinity comes into the picture. No escape.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Assumptions upon assumptions. I refuse to play that game.
Borachio
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It may seem simple to you. But it doesn't hold water for me.
1. The universe may be uncreated, self-existent and perpetual.
2. There is nothing to conclude from this conjecture
3. God may be a figment of the human imagination (you will grant that the human imagination is capable of creating fictions, I take it?)
Rationalism/Critical Thinking.
Big Bang proves *1) wrong, therefore, your entire argument collapses on it self. At t=0, the universe did not even exist. Ergo, the universe had a beginning, and most likely has an end too based on the recent calculations.
per·pet·u·al
pərˈpeCH(əw)əl/
adjective
1.
never ending or changing.
Never ending? No. As I've said above.
Never changing? The universe is continuously changing.
Made no sense at all.
Borachio
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I think you're entirely mistaken. And not for the first time.
The Bag Bing doesn't prove anything of the sort. The Bing Bong is simply a singularity of infinite density, the origin of which is unknown.
Which isn't to say that God doesn't exist, just that your reasons for thinking so are fallacious.
edit: Oh right you've edited some more in there. As for your dictionary definition of perpetual, it doesn't mean never ending and never changing, which you seem to imply. But never ending or never changing. And I plainly meant "never ending". It's obviously not never changing or you wouldn't have been able to edit your post, or post it in the first place.
I agree you're making no sense at all.
Why don't you try going for a bit of lie-down?
The Bag Bing doesn't prove anything of the sort. The Bing Bong is simply a singularity of infinite density, the origin of which is unknown.
Which isn't to say that God doesn't exist, just that your reasons for thinking so are fallacious.
edit: Oh right you've edited some more in there. As for your dictionary definition of perpetual, it doesn't mean never ending and never changing, which you seem to imply. But never ending or never changing. And I plainly meant "never ending". It's obviously not never changing or you wouldn't have been able to edit your post, or post it in the first place.
I agree you're making no sense at all.
Why don't you try going for a bit of lie-down?
And yet again, you made no sense at all. I'll explain it in layman's terms so you could perhaps understands - one would hope:
The widely accepted theory for the origin and evolution of the universe is the Big Bang model, which states that the universe began as an incredibly hot, dense point roughly 13.7 billion years ago.
And yet, here we have you claiming that the universe is uncreated? First instance of you being proven wrong.
Next, you claim that the universe is perpetual, which according to the English Oxford dictionary means:
per·pet·u·al
pərˈpeCH(əw)əl/
adjective
1.
never ending or changing
The universe is neither, it's changing all the time from its inception, and has an end according to most recent studies. Second instance of you being proven wrong.
Next.
Borachio
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Perhaps it would be clearer to you if I wrote in capital letters?
The origin of the known universe is thought to be with the Bug Bonk. We simply do not know whether there was anything before the Bog Blink or whether there was nothing. It's likely that this is unknowable. But there's no particular reason to think there was nothing.
We simply do not have this information.
Why do you persist in pretending that we do?
As for simply repeating what you've said already about the word "perpetual" without having read what I've written about it... words fail me.
The origin of the known universe is thought to be with the Bug Bonk. We simply do not know whether there was anything before the Bog Blink or whether there was nothing. It's likely that this is unknowable. But there's no particular reason to think there was nothing.
We simply do not have this information.
Why do you persist in pretending that we do?
As for simply repeating what you've said already about the word "perpetual" without having read what I've written about it... words fail me.
Translation: baseless speculation. You have nothing to stand on, no evidence, no proof, just pure speculative conjecture.
There's no reason to believe that there was anything before the Big Bang. However, what we know so far is that the universe is definitely not uncreated like you claim so, it had a beginning and most likely has an end.
Let me emphasize that point once more: having a beginning is.NOT.Equal.to uncreated.
PS: I find your childish puns on the expression "Big Bang" both hilarious and amusing, but at the same time, an accurate reflection of your character.
Borachio
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You've yet to demonstrate that the Big Bang is the beginning, though. And I don't know how you could.
Once again, it's currently thought to be the beginning of the known Universe.
I don't understand why you're having such a hard time getting your head round this. What makes you think that there wasn't, or couldn't be, a Universe predating the Big Bang?
We simply have zero knowledge of what came before the Big Bang.
As for this:
Once again, it's currently thought to be the beginning of the known Universe.
I don't understand why you're having such a hard time getting your head round this. What makes you think that there wasn't, or couldn't be, a Universe predating the Big Bang?
We simply have zero knowledge of what came before the Big Bang.
As for this:
It's a rather apt description of your own position.
Appealing from ignorance. It's a logical fallacy. The burden of the proof is on you to prove that something did exist before the Big Bang. What science and what we know so far points to the fact that the universe had a beginning, at which time, space, and matter was created. In other words, nothing existed before the big bang, not even time itself.
So to purport that something did exist before the Big Bang (before the singularity) is nothing but baseless speculation.
As it stands, scientific evidence claims the universe has a beginning and is 13.8 billions years old. Not infinity years old. Uncreated
Borachio
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You're not listening, are you?
I'm not claiming that there's something before the Big Bang. I'm claiming you don't know there wasn't.
Prove to me that there wasn't.
And science doesn't tell me that the Universe began with the Big Bang. It tells me we don't know what came before it. When scientists say that "time began with the Big Bang" (which some of them carelessly do) they aren't saying any more than they don't know what came before.
I'm not claiming that there's something before the Big Bang. I'm claiming you don't know there wasn't.
Prove to me that there wasn't.
And science doesn't tell me that the Universe began with the Big Bang. It tells me we don't know what came before it. When scientists say that "time began with the Big Bang" (which some of them carelessly do) they aren't saying any more than they don't know what came before.
