Going for Gold: Enhancer Beliefs

[chicorbeef]

The GP points fall off super hard lategame though. Maybe just decreasing policy requirements by a fixed number (2?) would be fine.

a) You're forgetting about the +15% GP in Golden Ages
b) There are tons of GP modifiers in place by that time, +2 GP points becomes +6 easily
c) Dioceses/Mendicancy fall off harder

I wouldn't mind maybe "1 less policy required per 10 cities converted"... I'd prefer something a bit more active. I don't think it needs it though.

 

[YukiN]

a) You're forgetting about the +15% GP in Golden Ages
b) There are tons of GP modifiers in place by that time, +2 GP points becomes +6 easily
c) Dioceses/Mendicancy fall off harder

I wouldn't mind maybe "1 less policy required per 10 cities converted"... I'd prefer something a bit more active. I don't think it needs it though.

Points A and B are a little contradictory. If you have few modifiers, 2 points isn't a lot. When you do, the 15% doesn't matter that much since the % bonuses are additive; going from 100% to 115% is a much bigger jump than 300% to 315%, just using your numbers from B.

 

[CrazyG]

How different would decreasing wonder requirement by 2 be from just totally removing it? How often do you have the technology but are 3 social policies short, especially when you have all those extra great person points?

Points A and B are a little contradictory. If you have few modifiers, 2 points isn't a lot. When you do, the 15% doesn't matter that much since the % bonuses are additive; going from 100% to 115% is a much bigger jump than 300% to 315%, just using your numbers from B.

If you have 0 modifiers and are working 2 scientists, you are going from 6 points per turn to 8 points per turn. Its a huge difference. Even late game it rapidly increases how quickly you generate great people. 4 scientists + school of philosophy earns 15 points per turn. Increasing that 17 is a significant jump.

 

[Owlbebach]

How different would decreasing wonder requirement by 2 be from just totally removing it? How often do you have the technology but are 3 social policies short, especially when you have all those extra great person points?

I was writing the same thing when saw your post.

Maybe just reduce it by 1? I think 1 is kinda okay

 

[chicorbeef]

I was writing the same thing when saw your post.

Maybe just reduce it by 1? I think 1 is kinda okay

Or just remove it really. I don't think the belief needs it.

 

[Rekk]

@Gazebo

Why do Zealotry faith costs scale with production AND era?

I would think this is also why people find that Jesuit Education's science buildings aren't worth buying either; they scale too high.

Is there a reason why production->faith abilities scale with both production cost and era?

 

[tothePAIN]

Is it intended for a conquered syncretism holy city to be so strong? I enjoy taking them but just wanted to confirm.

 

[CrazyG]

I find iconography to be quite a bit stronger than the other options. There are situational beliefs, such as zealotry or orthodoxy that are definitely better in some circumstances, but I find that if pursuing yields or general economy, iconography is just the best. Originally, I saw it as a tradition/tall belief, but I've realized that its incredible with progress; a single belief delivers almost as many great people points as tradition without needing population, food, or unhappiness for the specialists.

Prophecy seems really weak. It is incredibly slow, granting no yields until your next prophet is born, and it isn't ever really strong enough to offset that initial weakness. Holy sites, and prophecy, are pretty good sources fo tourism, but I would be shocked if you could get enough holy sites to get more tourism than iconography would have.

 

[Gazebo]

I find iconography to be quite a bit stronger than the other options. There are situational beliefs, such as zealotry or orthodoxy that are definitely better but I find that if pursuing yields or just general economy, iconography is just the best. Originally, I saw it as a tradition/tall belief, but I've realized that its incredible with progress; a single belief delivers almost as many great people points as tradition without needing population, food, or unhappiness for the specialists.

Prophecy seems really weak. It is incredibly slow, granting no yields until your next prophet is born, and it isn't ever really strong enough to offset that initial weakness. Holy sites, and prophecy, are pretty good sources fo tourism, but I would be shocked if you could get enough holy sites to get more tourism than iconography would have.

Sounds like a numbers tweak, right? I’m not surprised, enhancers have always been in a weird spot balance wise.

 

[Bromar1]

Sounds like a numbers tweak, right? I’m not surprised, enhancers have always been in a weird spot balance wise.

The reason iconography is so strong is because you can make a set amount of GPP regardless of all other factors. It's super strong for progress because going from 0 musician, artist or engineer points per turn to +2.5 per turn which is arguably a bigger impact than going from 3 to 5.5 as tradition. It is always a great boost and you get "something" out of nothing.

I think just tweaking those numbers won't really offset the "something out of nothing" issue. All other enhancers require you to spend faith to get value whereas iconography will always be worth literally the exact same amount of GPP every time no matter what you do. It is simultaneously the strongest and most passive enhancer belief. I think it needs some rework not just a tweak

 

[tothePAIN]

Medicancy is also strong without spending faith. It also scales for wide. Iconography isn't unique as far ad getting something without requiring faith expenditure.

 

[Stalker0]

My current thoughts on Enhancers:

• Mendicancy: This is my baseline enhancer. It just does its job, providing a nice bonus but nothing earthshattering. Its the baseline by which I judge other beliefs.
• Dioceses: This one to me is also decent. While Mendicancy uses gives more overall bonuses, this one is concentrated in your capital, where multipliers can truly kick in. Further the +25% missionary bonus is a nice spreader kick. I generally find this one balanced.
• Iconography: Agreed its number 1 at the moment. Heck even just the ignore 1 policy on wonders is very good, at high difficulties that can easily be the different between getting a wonder or not. Otherwise, its just really solid bonus for every playstyle.
• Inquisition: This one is the bottom of the barrel for me. Its a weird mishmash of bonuses. The inquisition thing happens too little. The spy bonus is meh (spies are too important to just toss around for spreading), and the happiness doesn't mean as much now that we use local bonuses more.
• Orthodoxy: If your goal is raw religious spread, its hard to go wrong with this one, though the lack of bonuses mean I'm only taking it if I have a powerful spreader combination elsewhere. Ultimately the question of this vs Universalism. I think overall this is my least favorite of the "spreader enhancers".
• Prophecy: I don't think this one is as weak as CrazyG claims, but its not the best. It synergizes well with things like Holy Land so it just needs a tweak. I wouldn't mind making them 15% stronger and 35% cheaper.
• Syncretism: I feel like this one is probably decent but can't remember the last time I used it. I'm just not the "balance my religion" kind of playstyle.
• Universalism: I think Dioceses has the better bonuses, but there is nothing stronger in terms of direct spread, the 50% "inquisition" of your enemies is brutal. Now this vs Orthodoxy? I think long term Orthodoxy is stronger in that it just keeps on going and going and going. However, when you want to spread in a hurry, this one is better. Overall, my gut is that this one is better, mainly because early is generally better than later. The faster I power up the spread of my religion the better off I'll be, and this one actually gives bonuses (though pretty weak bonuses overall).
• Zealotry: This one has a solid niche, and it does its job when I want it to.

 

[CrazyG]

Prophecy: I don't think this one is as weak as CrazyG claims, but its not the best. It synergizes well with things like Holy Land so it just needs a tweak. I wouldn't mind making them 15% stronger and 35% cheaper.

Your post is a great summary but I disagree with this. How much does it synergize with Holy Land? Prophecy's discount isn't giving you two extra holy sites. Maybe it gets you from 3 to 4, or 5 to 6? I don't think the fifth and sixth holy sites are worth their huge cost, Holy Land or not.

Stronger great prophets is so irrelevant. When it comes to spreading, other beliefs are just way better. If you do use a great prophet, the actual strength on it isn't that important, his value is the elimination of old religions, which works regardless of his strength.

PS- does anyone know the formula or values for great prophet costs? It would help to fine tune the beliefs.

 

[Bhawb]

• Syncretism: I feel like this one is probably decent but can't remember the last time I used it. I'm just not the "balance my religion" kind of playstyle.

Going to jump in because Syncretism is weird and I doubt it gets used often, but it is extremely good. It requires a lot of active work but you can get a ton of yields from it. I honestly think it borders on gamebreakingly good in certain situations and it just never gets addressed because it looks like a mediocre enhancer.

 

[CrazyG]

Syncretism is extremely strong with warmongering. If you have already reformed, and your founder is hero worship, you can just leave conquered cities as a foreign religion with very little downside.

 

[Stalker0]

Syncretism is extremely strong with warmongering. If you have already reformed, and your founder is hero worship, you can just leave conquered cities as a foreign religion with very little downside.

Also for the "make growth great again camp", you can combine it with cooperation for the ultimate in yields when growing combo. I don't know how good that is, but its at least a fun synergy.

 

[pineappledan]

Goddess of love, Way of Transcendence, Cooperation, Mandirs, Syncretism
Progress, Fealty (for the scaler), Freedom (universal healthcare)
Lolololol
This actually sounds like a decent build for Aztecs...

 

[Stalker0]

Interesting faith costs on Zealotry:

Swordsman and Skirmishers cost 200 Faith to buy with Zealotry, but Horseman only 100. Seems a bit out of wack

 

[CrazyG]

Interesting faith costs on Zealotry:

Swordsman and Skirmishers cost 200 Faith to buy with Zealotry, but Horseman only 100. Seems a bit out of wack

All units from the same tech column have the same faith costs, it isn't connected to hammer cost.

 

[Stalker0]

All units from the same tech column have the same faith costs, it isn't connected to hammer cost.

I still question it. It’s way more efficient to faith out several horseman than swords