Going for Gold: Pantheons

[Stalker0]

Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Important Notes:

1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.

 

[Mad Madigan]

At this point I agree that the Pantheons are just about perfectly balanced against each other.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Do Celtic ones count? I always go Rhiannon or Dagda and never really feel like I'm missing out, so no. Regular ones are balanced, but Celtic ones aren't.

 

[hr_oskar]

Is God of the Expanse balanced? It's been disappointing to me so far, even after the recent buff and when it should have synergy, e.g. with Authority's Tribute policy.

 

[Heavy Q]

Goddess of Wisdom seems too strong, in my opinion. I'll almost always go it if I'm going a non-religious authority/tradition game as it catches you up in science a LOT early game, and the AI rarely seems to prioritize it so it's always there. In Immortal+, it seems almost mandatory to take unless you're going a specific religion build that requires a different pantheon.

 

[Bascule2000]

God of Craftsmen is underpowered I think. 1 faith per quarry isn't great, and given they take a while to research and build, it gives you little chance at founding a religion.

 

[CrazyG]

I pick Wisdom more often than other pantheons, by a big margin. Even in situations like a wine monopoly where I'm going to connect a ton of resources quickly and have the option to pantheon boost them, I find wisdom still the better choice.

 

[peterw1987]

Goddess of Wisdom seems too strong, in my opinion. I'll almost always go it if I'm going a non-religious authority/tradition game as it catches you up in science a LOT early game, and the AI rarely seems to prioritize it so it's always there. In Immortal+, it seems almost mandatory to take unless you're going a specific religion build that requires a different pantheon.

Goddess of wisdom is not strong at all. It doesnt give culture,production,food, or gold. But at late game, when you have about 500+ science, it is the only pantheon that give the highest faith per turn.

In current state, I will say goddess of the hunt and spirit of desert are 2 strongest pantheon given right location.

Goddess of love is the weakest IMO. All it give is faith, and GA point is irrelevant because I always play with -happiness early game (i am not sure if unhapiness still reduce GA point or not).

 

[Heavy Q]

Goddess of wisdom is not strong at all. It doesnt give culture,production,food, or gold. But at late game, when you have about 500+ science, it is the only pantheon that give the highest faith per turn.

In current state, I will say goddess of the hunt and spirit of desert are 2 strongest pantheon given right location.

Goddess of love is the weakest IMO. All it give is faith, and GA point is irrelevant because I always play with -happiness early game (i am not sure if unhapiness still reduce GA point or not).

Goddess of Wisdom covers the weakness of playing non-progress wide; and turns what should be glacially slow tech speed to quick enough to remain competitive. Mid/Late game doesn't really matter with this pantheon since you're going it until you get someone elses religion. The faith part of this pantheon is fine, the problem is getting 2 science for every city in a wide game for a minimal investment. Even just tying the bonus to a building like council would help negate this, as this generally replaces the need for councils in wide games.

 

[CrazyG]

Goddess of wisdom is not strong at all. It doesnt give culture,production,food, or gold. But at late game, when you have about 500+ science, it is the only pantheon that give the highest faith per turn.

It gets my vote for overall strongest pantheon.

Borderline broken with civs such as Carthage or China, and a good choice for basically anyone. Provides culture indirectly if you have progress. Requires 0 commitment from workers or your build order. It will dramatically speed up how quickly you can get things war things like skirmishers, catapults, swords or the terracotta army. It also lets you go warmonger while still taking decent economic techs. It can mean building watermills and arenas like 15 turns earlier than you otherwise would. Overall just an amazing pantheon, its my default choice unless the resources or my civ really demand taking another one.

 

[Txurce]

It gets my vote for overall strongest pantheon.

Borderline broken with civs such as Carthage or China, and a good choice for basically anyone. Provides culture indirectly if you have progress. Requires 0 commitment from workers or your build order. It will dramatically speed up how quickly you can get things war things like skirmishers, catapults, swords or the terracotta army. It also lets you go warmonger while still taking decent economic techs. It can mean building watermills and arenas like 15 turns earlier than you otherwise would. Overall just an amazing pantheon, its my default choice unless the resources or my civ really demand taking another one.

Would you say borderline broken with two civs, and your favorite default otherwise, is enough reason to nerf?

Side note: the AI now aggressively takes Commerce.

 

[CrazyG]

Would you say borderline broken with two civs, and your favorite default otherwise, is enough reason to nerf?

Side note: the AI now aggressively takes Commerce.

I'd give a specific example from last month, a game as China. I was on a wine monopoly, so I decided to make connecting 5 wine plantations quickly my first goal. I was able to do it with only two cities because I had a very lucky border growth ruin. I also had progress for a free worker and faster improvements.

So when my pantheon became available, I debated between wisdom and the plantation one. I already had two plantations connected. There were three more wine already in my borders, a perfume, and an olives, all of which I could connect very soon. I spent a long time thinking about it, and I sitll think wisdom is the better choice here. Granted the plantation pantheon isn't great either IMO . Really any situation you are on a river its worth thinking about, just because building a watermill that much earlier has a massive positive effect on everything.

I'd make +1 science, and +1 science on a council or something like that.

 

[Txurce]

I'd give a specific example from last month, a game as China. I was on a wine monopoly, so I decided to make connecting 5 wine plantations quickly my first goal. I was able to do it with only two cities because I had a very lucky border growth ruin. I also had progress for a free worker and faster improvements.

So when my pantheon became available, I debated between wisdom and the plantation one. I already had two plantations connected. There were three more wine already in my borders, a perfume, and an olives, all of which I could connect very soon. I spent a long time thinking about it, and I sitll think wisdom is the better choice here. Granted the plantation pantheon isn't great either IMO . Really any situation you are on a river its worth thinking about, just because building a watermill that much earlier has a massive positive effect on everything.

I'd make +1 science, and +1 science on a council or something like that.

That's a reasonable adjustment.

Because I'm too lazy to post separately on the Banter thread, are you a China native? I assumed you were an American working in Beijing.

 

[CrazyG]

That's a reasonable adjustment.

Because I'm too lazy to post separately on the Banter thread, are you a China native? I assumed you were an American working in Beijing.

I'm Canadian, I just work abroad.

 

[Txurce]

I'm Canadian, I just work abroad.

Whew. I'm always impressed by how good the non-native English is on this site, but if you had told me you were Chinese, I would have keeled over.

 

[peterw1987]

It gets my vote for overall strongest pantheon.

Borderline broken with civs such as Carthage or China, and a good choice for basically anyone. Provides culture indirectly if you have progress. Requires 0 commitment from workers or your build order. It will dramatically speed up how quickly you can get things war things like skirmishers, catapults, swords or the terracotta army. It also lets you go warmonger while still taking decent economic techs. It can mean building watermills and arenas like 15 turns earlier than you otherwise would. Overall just an amazing pantheon, its my default choice unless the resources or my civ really demand taking another one.

Why would you want science bonus with China? Wont it quickly reduce the leader UA effect? I always slow down my science when playing china and catchup after I unlock all ancient era tech and paper maker.

 

[ElliotS]

Why would you want science bonus with China? Wont it quickly reduce the leader UA effect? I always slow down my science when playing china and catchup after I unlock all ancient era tech and paper maker.

Rushing to classical era and staying in that for a long time I'd guess.

 

[ElliotS]

These don't take into account changes due to adding an extra religion. The ones that I think need as touch more early faith might be fine now. Also I didn't comment on some that probably need changes but I don't feel as qualified to make the remarks. (Goddess of Wisdom isn't my forte, but if CrazyG thinks a science should move to the council I trust him.)

• God of Open Sky: +1 on Horses
  
• God of Craftsmen: +1 on Stones
  
• God of Expanse: +6 When borders expand
• Goddess of Fertility: Add Palace to the list of things that give bonuses. I always come up 5-10 turns short even when I feel I should have made the cut.

 

[CrazyG]

Why would you want science bonus with China? Wont it quickly reduce the leader UA effect? I always slow down my science when playing china and catchup after I unlock all ancient era tech and paper maker.

If I'm ahead in social policies and in science I'm not worried about losing a few yields from era transition (you'll get back some of them anyways if you took progress for building buildings)

What is really good about Wisdom is all you have to do is settle the city. You don't have to improve tiles, you don't have to buy the tiles to improve. You don't need to spend science to unlock buildings or improvments, you don't have to build to buildings. You just settle a city, and move on with your life. This is why most other pantheons struggle to compete (ancestor worship clearly becomes superior after a while), it changes your early game so much. If I've researched horsemen or swordsmen and my neighbor hasn't, he is going to have a bad time.

 

[Gokudo01]

...

I don't think it's an issue to have a pantheon that gives you some edge, early while being light in faith but let's say it's a problem, the solution you submit will make wisdom bad, you will forced to get council early which can be hard with tradition and/or with some cities early and you will be slowed down. So what's the point to pick a low faith pantheon if it's not to have an edge somewhere else ?