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Going for Gold: Pantheons

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    I want to bring up about how OP is spirit of desert. 3 strong yield(food,production,and faith) for just having resources on desert(even flood plain and hill desert which is already superior to normal tile). While Star and Sky need the resource to be improved. The only other resource or tile pantheon that dont need improvement are goddess of purity and renewal, which only give 2 yield per tile average.

    Can it be changed that spirit of desert only worked for improved desert tile?
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  2. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Which version do you play? The food is only for oases, and often enough there is plenty of desert but no oases.
    But remember, you have to plant most of your cities in hostile, no yield giving areas, even worse than tundra, which give atleast one food.
     
  3. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    Sorry, it is hammer,faith, and gold.
     
  4. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    If I'm not too late -> Earth Mother seems a tad too strong, I'd change to 1 hammer per 3 followers in a city, because 1 hammer per 3 citizens in a city is very, very strong, in my opinion too strong.
     
  5. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    When all you have is the pantheon, every citizen is a follower. So you are talking about a point in time when the Earth Mother pantheon is now part of the city's majority religion, but another religion also has followers in the city. By that point in the game, the difference in hammers isn't very significant, in my opinion.
     
  6. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    IIRC, not every citizen is automatically a follower of your pantheon once you adopt a pantheon.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  7. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I think this is still an ungly pantheon and should be changed to +1:c5production: in city if majority and +1:c5production: per 4:c5citizen:. Will be much more usefull and balanced
     
  8. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    In my opinion, its kinda weak. The amount of mines with luxuries are always relative low and +1:c5gold:/:c5faith: is not very much, I find it often difficult to get a religion with it. +1 :c5production: per 3 :c5citizen: sounds much, but in midgame, this effectivly increases my production by 5% and in lategame its completly negligible.
    Compare it with god of the open sky. You get +1:c5faith: +3:c5gold: for a pasture, which are normally more common than mine luxuries. And +1 :c5culture: per 2 grassland/plains tiles is much more valuable than simply :c5production:.
    This pantheon definitly need a buff. Like additional +1:c5science: for mines on luxuries and strategical ressources.
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Or, because we don't agree on this particular pantheon, let G say whether AI are underperforming when picking mother earth.
     
  10. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I'm also underwhelmed by Earth Mother, it's very RNG dependent though and can be pretty strong if you get lucky and there's tons of small iron tiles around. I'm uncertain it needs either a buff or a nerf, though. It has a niche, even if there's other resource dependent ones that fill their niches better.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  11. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    God of Craftsmen is pretty awful, though it's better than it used to be with the Advent of more Quarry resources. I think the clincher comes with not having a Quarry resource around a city, because the Stone Works is then unable to be constructed, causing a loss of Faith in particular (that's where it hurts). I'm inclined to say that the Faith and Production should go on the Monument while Gold and Culture go on the Stone Works, and the Stone Works could use another +1 of some yield on top of this yet.

    God of the Expanse if it got a better % to the border growth bonus I think would be fine (say 40%).

    Festivals is weak in Faith but I don't have a good suggestion of what to do about it.

    And yes, Wisdom is insanely strong.

    Beyond this, I think they generally all look good.
     
    black213 likes this.
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    God of Craftsman requires a very specific early start to be of use. However, in those situations I have found it solid and useful. I would argue it is one of the more niche pantheons, but with so many that is going to happen here and there.

    Expanse - I don't agree, I think its a fine pantheon, especially if you go the "power borders" strategy.

    Festivals - Again, very niche pantheon, but I've been able to found with it if the early resources line up correctly.

    Wisdom - The thing about wisdom is its always good. Its a very solid pantheon for pretty much anyone, and its never "bad" to take. Is it too strong I don't necessarily think so, but its definitely one of the widest applicable pantheons in the game.
     
    JamesNinelives and ElliotS like this.
  13. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I think we need to define "niche" a tad better, as it seems like it can have two meanings. It can mean that it's only useful if things line up perfectly, or that it has a particular use that makes it good. I'd consider the former an unreasonable setup for balance always, but the latter to be reasonable. God of Craftsmen should be something pickable in the same way as any of the other resource Pantheons: if you have enough of that resource nearby, capitalize on it. But if it's only pickable if you have an extreme start location with lots of rocks, then it's not a well-balanced Pantheon: any Pantheon could function like that, even God of the Sun, if it was weak enough and only sold merit to a start location with 5 Wheat tiles.

    For Expanse - you'll have to say more on "power borders" - I've found use for this with Russia, obviously - but for anything else I either don't have enough pop for it to matter, the yields from Authority aren't enough for me to care, the bonus from Fealty is too late to depend on, or a war where I need more healing is easy enough to resolve with a Citadel. Two extra tiles won't win me a war - but two extra technologies sure will.

    Festivals - It makes more sense based on the type of map you're playing than anything else. If on Pangaea, it's easy to captialize on it because you can meet everyone quickly and trade Monopoly resources for a copy of everything. I've rarely ever seen a variety of different things near any start, and even if I did, having the right technologies to improve them all would be quite laborious.

    Wisdom - I think the better way of describing it is that it's a selection that's always good, yes. It's the ultimate generic Pantheon. But in light of that, it's proportional power should be weaker than others that manifestly depend on something or it's always going to overshadow everything else.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Craftsmen is quite good in my opinion. Its not something you take that often, but very strong in the right circumstances.

    Festivals is a cool pantheon. Its okay for some options to be weak in faith, and it was way too good at 2 :c5faith: per luxury (it was easy to found religions with only 1 city).

    Wisdom.......The problem with this pantheon (which has been changed many times and is consistently strong across many patches) is you get to found the city and forget, you already have all the bonuses. Generally speaking the only reason not to spam settlers like crazy is because it destroys your science, but the pantheon gives you a way around that. Very strong with civs who settle fast like China or if your luxury provides :c5culture: unimproved.

    Late game the :c5faith: per :c5science: becomes stupid strong. Science really inflates at a certain point, like in medieval era my culture and science output are usually pretty close. 100 turns later, my :c5culture: has gone from like 250 to 400. My :c5science: has gone from 250 to 2,000.
     
    ElliotS and LukaSlovenia29 like this.
  15. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    How?
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    To be fair, in that example I do have Jesuit Education.

    Edit: Also Rationalism and golden age.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
    Owlbebach likes this.
  17. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I think one of the things favouring Wisdom is precisely that CrazyG - it's not only that Wisdom is very good early game, but it is astoundingly good late game also - it really has no drawbacks. Whereas other Pantheons have small bonuses early that never increase - this gets those, too. Furthermore, it outperforms Commerce and Ancestor Worship in terms of late game mega faith quantities, which is a pretty distintive imbalance.

    Perhaps having a cap on how much Faith can be generated? Like max of 10 Faith per city. Maybe too low - but the idea is that Wisdom-Ancestor Worship-Commerce would all manage the same Faith generation in the late game. Still not sure how to handle the early game, but one problem solved is a step in the right direction.


    Regarding Craftsmen - Must disagree with you. Any Pantheon performs well with a swarm of its primary resource nearby in excess. What makes a Pantheon a balanced choice is that excess shouldn't be necessary, and for Craftsmen this is the only time I can identify it as being the "right circumstances."


    Festivals - You're right that founding with 2 Faith is too easy, I wasn't suggesting putting that back. But +1 is too low. Maybe it could be 3 Faith per 2 Luxuries and see how that goes. Don't forget though that Festivals loses ground in the long term because there's only so many different Luxuries to go around.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  18. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Maybe throw a count of festivals on the capital like God-King? That seems like the elegant solution.

    As for wisdom: Having a cap seems like the right choice.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Craftsman - I disagree its an excess of resources, it just requires resource combinations I don't see often. But to me is fine. With some many pantheons its not possible to make them all equally viable in an equal number of scenarios. I don't use craftsman often, but when I have, it has done the job just fine. That is enough at this stage of balance.

    Festivals - I could see a +1 faith in the capital if you wanted to round it off just a bit. But I've founded with it before, its lower faith than many, but not so low it is noncompetitive.
     
  20. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Did i missed something? It was applied to the capital before and was giving culture faith and gold in capital for imported and owned resources. It was quite strong if played right.

    Craftsmen is awful, i can't imagine a situation where i take it. It is nearly impossible to found with it if you are not Ethiopia or Aztec and it soes not provide a lot of early boost. I've been saying it many times and i repeat, i think it should have faith on Stone and Marble without Quarry
     

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