Going for Gold: Pantheons

[CrazyG]

I don't think it's an issue to have a pantheon that gives you some edge, early while being light in faith but let's say it's a problem, the solution you submit will make wisdom bad, you will forced to get council early which can be hard with tradition and/or with some cities early and you will be slowed down. So what's the point to pick a low faith pantheon if it's not to have an edge somewhere else ?

I think its not wise to get 3 yields just for settling a city, it should have another condition in my opinion. It also isn't really that low faith, There is a period before science takes off that its low, but its very strong early and very strong late. Also the faith has a low opportunity cost that you need to factor. For example the 3 faith from markets sounds strong, but in a lot of situations I'd assert that just 1 faith per city contributes more to a religion.

After thinking about this more, I agree giving a yield to the council isn't a good solution, because it compares poorly to anccestor worship. I do think something should change though.

 

[Gokudo01]

I think its not wise to get 3 yields just for settling a city, it should have another condition in my opinion. It also isn't really that low faith, There is a period before science takes off that its low, but its very strong early and very strong late. Also the faith has a low opportunity cost that you need to factor. For example the 3 faith from markets sounds strong, but in a lot of situations I'd assert that just 1 faith per city contributes more to a religion.

After thinking about this more, I agree giving a yield to the council isn't a good solution, because it compares poorly to anccestor worship. I do think something should change though.

I stay doubtfully but I'm not against changes.

 

[hr_oskar]

After thinking about this more, I agree giving a yield to the council isn't a good solution, because it compares poorly to anccestor worship. I do think something should change though.

A reasonable compromise would be to apply the bonus to either shrines or monuments, which also fits thematically.

I agree that Wisdom is a very strong pantheon and for some reason underrated by the AI (except Ethiopia). I also agree that Craftsmen and Springtime suffer from delayed faith generation, making it hard to found a religion with them.

Love is probably the worst pantheon -- instant golden age points are a terrible yield early and the faith gained is only so so; I don't see myself taking this pantheon ever. Perhaps an additional 10 culture per birth would make it a viable choice.

 

[Owlbebach]

After thinking about this more, I agree giving a yield to the council isn't a good solution, because it compares poorly to anccestor worship. I do think something should change though.

I'd rather change Ancestor, +1 Science in Council seems reasonable. I really dislike current Ancestor, not that it is very bad but i really don't understand when it is good

 

[hr_oskar]

I'd rather change Ancestor, +1 Science in Council seems reasonable. I really dislike current Ancestor, not that it is very bad but i really don't understand when it is good

Ancestor Worship has decent early benefits and excellent scaling faith generation later on. I don't think any pantheon can beat it for mid-to-late game faith generation actually. So I'd be particularly keen to take it to support a religious strategy, e.g. with India or Byzantium.

I think it's balanced though -- a great baseline even.

Edit: Okay I suppose War can situationally produce a lot more faith and also Love (as bad as it is early on).

 

[Owlbebach]

Ancestor Worship has decent early benefits and excellent scaling faith generation later on. I don't think any pantheon can beat it for mid-to-late game faith generation actually. So I'd be particularly keen to take it to support a religious strategy, e.g. with India or Byzantium.

I think it's balanced though -- a great baseline even.

Well, as i said, it is not bad. Question is - when are you going to take it? It has awful early faith generation and it is nearly impossible to found with it and it does not give you any short-term advantage. It is like God-King which is an AI-only pantheon. Maybe with Ethiopia or something like this, but even for Ethiopia i'd prefer something that is more heave on yields.

EDIT: but my opinion is biased to Deity difficulty, God-King might be an amazing pantheon on King

 

[Stalker0]

Well, as i said, it is not bad.

I would argue that if all pantheons are "not bad", that is definition of reasonable balance. We do have to remember, there is no scenario where we get every pantheon on everyone's "this is great" list. That is just not a reasonable expectation with so many options, and so many different ways people play.

 

[hr_oskar]

Well, as i said, it is not bad. Question is - when are you going to take is? It has awful early faith generation and it is nearly impossible to found with it and it does not give you any short-term advantage. It is like God-King which is an AI-only pantheon. Maybe with Ethiopia or something like this, but even for Ethiopia i'd prefer something that is more heave on yields.

Impossible to found with? No, I disagree... it has decent enough early faith and the first time I tried (with tradition Austria on deity) it I founded.

God-King is good, too bad the AI always takes it. Actually I find it likely I'd take God-King with India rather than Ancestor Worship. Perhaps with Byz too, seeing as they can always pick any belief they like.

So I admit I'm not entirely sure when it makes sense to take Ancestor Worship, though at the same time it feels like it's never a bad choice, just very generic and reasonable.

 

[Stalker0]

Goddess of love is the weakest IMO. All it give is faith, and GA point is irrelevant because I always play with -happiness early game (i am not sure if unhapiness still reduce GA point or not).

I do agree that because you run a happiness deficit for the early part of the game that its bonuses are often weak. I wouldn't mind a static +1/+2 happiness to let you climb out of the whole and actually let its bonuses start working.

 

[Bascule2000]

It [Ancestor Worship] has awful early faith generation and it is nearly impossible to found with it and it does not give you any short-term advantage.

I just comfortably founded first with ancestor worship playing China FWIW (Progress, Emperor, standard size pangea, standard speed)

 

[Owlbebach]

I just comfortably founded first with ancestor worship playing China FWIW (Progress, Emperor, standard size pangea, standard speed)

I speak only for Deity, i'm pretty sure that you can found with many pantheons of Emperor that has no chance on Deity

 

[Bascule2000]

I speak only for Deity, i'm pretty sure that you can found with many pantheons of Emperor that has no chance on Deity

It would be helpful if you specify that when you make statements like "nearly impossible to found with it", because, as written, your statement was incorrect.

 

[Owlbebach]

It would be helpful if you specify that when you make statements like "nearly impossible to found with it", because, as written, your statement was incorrect.

You can dominate the whole world with your religion on Prince with any set of beliefs. Is this of any value?

 

[ElliotS]

You can dominate the whole world with your religion on Prince with any set of beliefs. Is this of any value?

No,. You can dominate the whole world with any religion in any order on prince. A prince-level player can't, hence why he plays prince. (Excluding people who enjoy playing easy difficulties, because balance is literally meaningless for them.)

 

[hr_oskar]

I speak only for Deity, i'm pretty sure that you can found with many pantheons of Emperor that has no chance on Deity

I've founded with AW on deity, standard settings, non-religious civ (Austria), no faith resource or natural wonder. It was a little late (sometime between t90 and t100) so I think there were few religious civs around and I'll grant that it was with a tradition -> sovereignty opener. Anecdotal ofc but then it was my first and only try with AW.

I think it's middle of the road in terms of the chance of founding - comparable to Wisdom for example.

It's definitely a tradition-oriented pantheon, now that I think of it, what with the specialist science bonus and culture from councils.

 

[Bascule2000]

You can dominate the whole world with your religion on Prince with any set of beliefs. Is this of any value?

If you'd tested that, it would be of value. Of course what you're saying is that the game should be designed around the way you play it, ignoring the opinions of people who play on different difficulty settings.

 

[CrazyG]

We don't need to change a pantheon because its hard to get a religion with as France or Austria on Deity. You can still found with it on your difficulty by playing a religious civ, or view it as a risk.

 

[Gazebo]

Interestingly Wisdom and Love are the two pantheons on my list of current changes. Wisdom is losing a science and gaining a GAP. Love is gaining 5 gold from birth and losing 5 GAP. India benefits from this.

 

[peterw1987]

Interestingly Wisdom and Love are the two pantheons on my list of current changes. Wisdom is losing a science and gaining a GAP. Love is gaining 5 gold from birth and losing 5 GAP. India benefits from this.

I am proud to be the first one to bring up goddess of love problem. You dont need GAP that early anyway, when you dont have any building that increase GA effectiveness (on contrary, it will just increase point needed for next GA). 5 Gold is balance enough I think. I wish that it is culture or production(similar to aqueduct) or maybe science(progress opener).

 

[tu_79]

Love is probably the worst pantheon -- instant golden age points are a terrible yield early and the faith gained is only so so; I don't see myself taking this pantheon ever. Perhaps an additional 10 culture per birth would make it a viable choice.

Extra problem with Love is that current happiness problems make me avoid growth. So not only the yields are dissapointing, I don't even get them with the frequency I'd like. This goes for the Fertility pantheon as well. Until happiness is solved (hope for new luxury mechanics), there's no reason to address it.
One thing is true, golden age points before villages are terrible. Not only the first golden ages are inefficient, but next golden ages take longer. If I were to change it, births would give faith and specialists (or any other thing that happen more likely in medieval) give GAP. As such, this pantheon is a recipe for unhappiness.

For Wisdom, CrazyG explains it better than I could. Almost every pantheon requires the player to do something. If it is something very easy, the rewards should be low. Don't know, how about +2 faith on councils, +1 faith every 20 science? It does not yield science, only rewards you with faith for your scientific effort, and scales well later.