Going for Gold: Pantheons

[CrabHelmet]

IIRC, didn't we have a problem with God of the Expanse and Goddess of Love last time because on Deity/Immortal they become over-strong in the hands of the AI, because of all their bonus yields? Wasn't that why they were nerfed?

 

[Gidoza]

My comments on ElliotS's suggestions.

God of the Expanse: What do you mean 2 Culture for border expanse only? As in each city gets +2 Culture that only applies for Border Expansion? Sure, I'd like that - the point still stands that its actual bonuses when the border expansion occurs are pathetically weak. Even with more expansions, virtually any other Pantheon will outperform it in yields.

God of Fertility: Your suggestion is interesting, but I might add something else to this: since you mentioned God of Protection in your comment on God of War, it's worth noting that both God of Protection and God of Fertility give a bonus to two buildings, but the former gets a total of +4 Faith per city while the latter only gets +2. That's a HUGE difference. Also, Water Wheels are dreadful because they come so late. I'd be inclined to say that the Shrine should get a +1 bonus, the Well +2, and the Water Wheel +3. I think this with your happiness suggestion would put it more on par with other Pantheons.

God of War: I like where you're going, but maybe we want to take it slower. Might I suggest that we drop the value to 250% first and see how it goes? We can actively test it and then decide together whether it's good there or should be reduced further. It's not like there aren't more versions coming that can nail this down - less drastic changes seem a better way to go. In any case, while I did mention that this Pantheon only has Faith going for it - I don't see a problem with having just ONE Pantheon that only has Faith going for it. It's one of the things that makes it cool and unique.

God of All Creation: I still think it's a bit pithy even on a normal map, but whatever.


CrabHelmet: I guess the question is whether we should design balance for players or for the AI. You could also have a "dummy" version of the Pantheon - one pickable by humans only, the other pickable by AIs only.

 

[CrazyG]

God-King and Goddess of Love are the two pantheons which have a particularly large disparity between human and AI on higher difficulties. The AI has so much extra growth that these two pantheons get pretty skewed.

God-King currently has a niche for the player (good luck picking it though, its AI's first choice most of the time).

Love seems pretty weak to me. I suppose you use it for some kind of late game growth and golden age strategy.

 

[ElliotS]

AI used to get tons of free border expanse points which made god of expanse way better for them. They don't anymore IIRC.

Maybe it could use a bit more non faith yields but I'd start with my suggestion. Remember that the increased border expansions combo well with authority for tons of bonus yields, and have other synergy. (Russia, Angkor Wat)

 

[Owlbebach]

God-King and Goddess of Love are the two pantheons which have a particularly large disparity between human and AI on higher difficulties. The AI has so much extra growth that these two pantheons get pretty skewed.
God-King currently has a niche for the player (good luck picking it though, its AI's first choice most of the time).
Love seems pretty weak to me. I suppose you use it for some kind of late game growth and golden age strategy.

This is very much true and this happens due to extra growth. A bit of an offtopic, what do you think about removing extra growth from AI handicap? I've said it multiple times and i think it will really push balance of the game t the next level. It always can be compensated by higher discount for buildings, but will dramatically increase balance of all Pantheons, Policies (Progress) and Beliefs (Cooperation) that are tied to population and triggered when new citizen is born.

 

[Gidoza]

This is very much true and this happens due to extra growth. A bit of an offtopic, what do you think about removing extra growth from AI handicap? I've said it multiple times and i think it will really push balance of the game t the next level. It always can be compensated by higher discount for buildings, but will dramatically increase balance of all Pantheons, Policies (Progress) and Beliefs (Cooperation) that are tied to population and triggered when new citizen is born.

I'd be up for that. We can give bonuses to the AI without accelerating city growth so much. The issue with accelerating growth is that the actual yields from that growth become unpredictable in a steamroll fashion.


Also Re: Goddess of Love - I mean, it DOES scale with era, and it needs that, because population growth slows down. I'm not sure how to assess it, but I do feel like it needs something.

 

[ElliotS]

This is very much true and this happens due to extra growth. A bit of an offtopic, what do you think about removing extra growth from AI handicap? I've said it multiple times and i think it will really push balance of the game t the next level. It always can be compensated by higher discount for buildings, but will dramatically increase balance of all Pantheons, Policies (Progress) and Beliefs (Cooperation) that are tied to population and triggered when new citizen is born.

I think that's a bigger can of worms than you're thinking it will be.

 

[Owlbebach]

I think that's a bigger can of worms than you're thinking it will be.

Not really. It will be barely noticeable on difficulties below Immortal. back in time when i was playing Emperor it was not a big problem for me to have the same population as AI. From the code point of view you can always set 1% instead of any other number. I'll make a post later today

 

[CrazyG]

I want to really push a God of War change. My last game with had a second great prophet on turn 80, I'm not sure I can even get pre-turn 100 with other pantheons.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Maybe we can continue the God of Craftsmen discussion here?

 

[Owlbebach]

Yes we probably should. As i said the reason why i hate it so much is that in order to get it working you need to research Construction, which comes too late. You can't get enough yiels from it to say that it worth taking without foundind and you can't found with it either (unless you have religious civ). You only can take Construction as a 4th tech because you need to take Pottery too, which means that you get your first faith from it on turn 45, while Religion timing is turn 85-90. Again its yield are good, i agree, production is very valuable, but i can use it only when i am Ethiopia!

I had two proposals:
1) Give Stone +1 without impovement. Stone without Quarry is a crappy tile and workig it for that 1 faith is punishing, so it will not be OP
2) Give Monument +1 instead of +1 or +2 that it has right now. This will help in researching Construction faster, which i like a lot as a concept. However i am not sure that it will be enough...

 

[CrazyG]

How much other yield does it give you? Lets say you have 7 cities. Lets say you have Quarry-based monopoly, Marble and couple of Stones
+2/+1 /+1 per city and +1 per Quarry. That is +14/+7/+7 and +10 on Resources
For God of Open Sky you are guaranteed to have more Pastures than Quarries, lets say you have 3-4 pastures per city, which is possible for sure. You get +73 (3.5*3*7) AND no less than +20 . In addition you actually have chances to found religion. With Craftsmen you don't have it unless you are Ethiopia or Aztec.

If this is the logic we use, I propose a change to earth mother. Because if you have more pastures than mines, its weaker than open sky.
I propose a change to God of the Sea. Because if you have more pastures than fishing boats, its weaker than open sky.
I propose a change to goddess of the hunt. Because if you have more pastures than camps, its weaker than open sky.

I have to challenge numbers here. I don't get 7 cities settled all that quickly. In city #7 I certainly won't be have 4 pastures connected before the religion race is over.
I don't see how a quarry monopoly with stone and marble only reaches 10 quarries. Playing on tiny maybe? On standard a monopoly is usually 8 copies, add "a couple of stones" and the marble and you should be at 13 or 14.

I have to challenge the founding claim. I have founded using quarry faith and England, Songhai, and India. Its very good on jade.

Is it too niche? I take it more often than other pantheons, such as stars and sky, open sky, expanse, love, and renewal. Yes, you have to research construction and I know you don't want to. If you don't want to, pick a different pantheon.

If you want to change it, I'd suggest making salt a quarry. Salt is buffed by the stoneworks which leads to a very high production opening with this option (basically how you play it with Jade currently). Then the pantheon has synergy with two monopolies rather than just one. You could make amber or lapiz lazuli a mine in compensation.

Edit: Or remove the +2 gold on monuments and give the quarries/stoneworks +1 gold.

 

[chicorbeef]

Well, have you ever had 10 Quarries? I was saying about ideal situation. But i had 3 plantations / pastures in a city. Okay 5 was too much, but 3 for sure.

I have. Just yesterday in fact. More than 10.
Anyway, I am talking about the average. Yes you have had games where you had 3-4 pastures per city for 7 cities just as I have also had 3-4 quarries per city for 6 cities in a game as well. But the average is less than that.

This comparison is incorrect and it is really strange that i need to explain this too you, especially considering that i think that you are the most competent and intelligent person on that forum.

I just want to note that you should not argue like this, please. Don't try to put Deity players on a pedestal when discussing balance issues like this.

I think i did offer and actually several. 1) +1 Faith on Stone without improvements 2) +1 Science on Monument instead of Culture or Gold.

I don't mind the +1 Faith on Stone, actually. But in the end a buff like this is up to Gazebo to decide whether the AI found/performs reasonably with Craftsmen or not. I prefer Culture over Science on Monuments and don't want that to go.

 

[ElliotS]

I just want to note that you should not argue like this, please. Don't try to put Deity players on a pedestal when discussing balance issues like this.

As a Deity player I disagree. Worship me mortals, or I'll declare war!

 

[CrazyG]

My issue with +1 faith stone is how long text is becoming.

We could do the easy thing to give a pantheon a small boost, make it so one of the bonuses hits the palace too.

 

[Owlbebach]

If this is the logic we use, I propose a change to earth mother. Because if you have more pastures than mines, its weaker than open sky.
I propose a change to God of the Sea. Because if you have more pastures than fishing boats, its weaker than open sky.
I propose a change to goddess of the hunt. Because if you have more pastures than camps, its weaker than open sky.

The difference is TIME! For example Ancestor is the most faith-heavy pantheon, but it takes forever for it to start working and this is why you usually can't found with it.
With Hunt you can start improving camp on turn 20 (you can skip Monument and build Worker)
With Sea you have to research 2 techs, but boat is very cheap and impoves tile in 1 turn. Also Sea resources provide faith
With Earth Mother you research 2 techs and guaranteed to get +1 right away (no improvement needed). However to me Earth Mother seems to be in a bad spot. It needs +1 on Monuments

I don't get 7 cities settled all that quickly. In city #7 I certainly won't be have 4 pastures connected before the religion race is over.

Same applies to Craftsmen with an addition that you'll have even less Quarries

On standard a monopoly is usually 8 copies

But you usually don't get all of them, you are more likely to get like 6 because of AI and bad placement (like Tundra, or Desert, or Mountains)

My issue with +1 faith stone is how long text is becoming.

I think this is fine, same as with Earth Mother. Simply "Stone produces +1"

 

[CrazyG]

You just don't understand how to play craftsmen. I'm not trying to speed settle 7 cities. You are trying to play it like its God of Open Sky, but its not. Its ironic because you are the guy who loves to play the Deity superiority card, but you are playing it wrong.

I'm building an extra worker and improving tiles very fast. Does it bother me that pottery isn't on the way construction? No because I'm focusing on getting a capital with disgusting high production and good culturem those monument yields are really impactful, I'd much rather have the culture than science. I'm snowballing from early culture and production. I now have really strong production, like potentially 2 turn settlers in my capital. I'm settling 3 or 4 who go monument first, I probably have gold to invest and I may be able to share a tile from my capital with high production. Now I'm pulling in strong culture. The goal isn't get a ton of cities, just a small number who can earn 4-5 faith from the pantheon. Once I have a strong enough, I'll settle the weaker cities who don't have quarries. They can build shrines if I need them. If I want more cities, I have great production and I'm on the way to Terracotta Army.

What you are missing is this is already a good way to play quarry heavy starts. A stoneworks is a really good building on certain starts. So you buff an already good gameplan. Yes, you take construction early. Yes, that has downsides. Its still a good strategy. If you feel you need extra science, take progress. Your production heavy start is good for progress anyways, and this game is about adapting to your situation. Maybe sometimes commerce is still the better choice on a quarry start, that's okay.

Needing construction is a weakness of quarry starts. Not the pantheon. They are generally weakish starts, but you can overcome that with good culture and production, which God of Craftsmen provides. I'm going to repeat that I have founded twice with faithless civs, a feat you claimed couldn't be done. Its because you are doing it wrong.

I think this pantheon has been over discussed and is a dead horse at this point.

 

[Owlbebach]

I'm building an extra worker and improving tiles very fast. Does it bother me that pottery isn't on the way construction? No because I'm focusing on getting a capital with disgusting high production and good culturem those monument yields are really impactful, I'd much rather have the culture than science. I'm snowballing from early culture and production. I now have really strong production, like potentially 2 turn settlers in my capital. I'm settling 3 or 4 who go monument first, I probably have gold to invest and I may be able to share a tile from my capital with high production. Now I'm pulling in strong culture.

I see the idea, but i just don't belive that this gameplan can work with any stability. I belive you can found with it IF you are luck and you don't have any religios civs on the map

I think one thing that is different between your and mine playstyle is that i am very much used to play with my friend (more than 90% of my games and i have more than 1500 hours of VP). He actually plays way better than i do and we were always competing with each other. This leads to the fact that you always have very interesting ideas and strategies (and i respect that a lot! You are for sure better than me in this part!). However i have much more experience with comparing two different strategies because i was always playing with another human. Having a strategy that can work was always not enough for me because there are many strategies that can work but are not stable.

Simple example: Is it possible to win against AI when you fail with your Craftsmen religion plan? - yes, sure it is. But is it possible to win against human that is about as good as you, but he didn't fail with his religion? - No way. You fail with your craftsmen plan and the game is over. You will catch up with Deity AI, but you will never catch up with another human. If you play with human you need a plan that you know will work without any "IFs". You can't rely on "high risk - high reward" strategies.

And I'm acually saying this because i think it may be my problem (not yours for sure) that i pay too much attention to best effectiveness possible. For the same reason i was always saying that you can't play Tourism without Tradition: you can start Progress than switch to Artistry and win Tourism vs AI. Does not work vs human, who played his Diplo or Science plan right. You will eventually become influential with AI, but another human will win 30 turns earlier (which for me means that Tourism does not work without Tradition). For the same reaso i said that Inspiration is the best belief. If you try to play against human - you'll see that the player with Inspiration is leading in 70-80% of the games at least

 

[black213]

While the rest of you are debating Craftsmen, I want to bring up another cat on the table. Festivals is 2 now. This appears to sound to me as a big amount of culture that scales well for a pantheon, but I have not played the recent version yet. What are your thoughts?

 

[Owlbebach]

While the rest of you are debating Craftsmen, I want to bring up another cat on the table. Festivals is 2 now. This appears to sound to me as a big amount of culture that scales well for a pantheon, but I have not played the recent version yet. What are your thoughts?

Well with +3 it might be very strong. I am really not sure that this was necessary. Back in time, when is was +2/+2+2 it was OP. It is kinda low on faith, but its power is that it can get this faith very fast, but you will be low on faith after.

However the more i i think the more i lean towards that it might be OP right now. I think it needs another yield, not culture. Maybe 1 or 2 GAPs.