Going for Gold: Pantheons

[tu_79]

As I see it Open Sky is odd. It gives Faith for Pastures, but e.g. Sheep are only on Hills tiles, so by working those Pastures, you reduce your Culture in-take from the second part of the ability - these parts are sometimes conflicting. The second part of the ability is also strong enough that some people feel it has to be low-Faith, or it stops being balanced.

I like the way Open Sky is conflicting. It actually makes both stars viable. In hilly locations there is usually more sheep than there are cattle in plains, so in hills you get more faith and gold, but lose the culture, which is fine.

As I see it: Wheat heavy starts are (normally) when you roll Plains for your start but the game needs to give you a decent Food tile or two early on. The natural synergy for Wheat is the Granary and Plains, not Flood Plains. Wheat on Flood Plains is already high Food, the extra stuff is just redundant.

You are all saying Sun is OP, but I've got no start with more than two wheats nearby in a long time. What is apparently breaking that part is in flood plains, but you know that G wanted to have a backup for desert starts, so if anything, switch some Sun bonuses with the Desert one.

 

[Owlbebach]

I've said since the rework was proposed that Sun would be a problem. Right now it's balanced around no wheat and no flood plains (it would be good with those removed.) and then getting one or god-forbid both of them makes it OP. If we nerf it as is we'll get it being too niche and/or still OP in some situations.

I also think god of open sky needs a bit more faith. +1 on horses (for +2 when improved) would be my suggestion. I think this worked well on The mining one and is a good way to add a bit of faith on these at the right timing.

Fertility is garbage. I've tried it a few times and it's just really weak. Makes early happiness really hard and doesn't give enough faith to found. I would add "Cities produce +1 for every 10 being produced." if that's possible. Sort of a food wisdom thing.

God of Craftsmen should probably get +1 on stone. (for +2 when improved.) If you can't tell I like this method.

I was saying exactly the same on all proposals. +1 faith on Stone and +1 faith on Horses will be just perfect. Sun needs a rework.

I think it needs to have weak faith given how strong the rest of the pantheon is.

I would be happy if it loses 1 gold on everything and gets 1 faith on Horses without improvement

I think it is a bad design to have "high risk - high reward" pantheons. Pantheons are way too important part of the game for that.
I think there should be 3 general types of Pantheons:
1) Faith-heavy, but low on yields.

• With this type of pantheon civs that have no religious benefits from UA but are in the right setup should be generally able to found.

2) Moderate faith, moderate yields.

• With this type of pantheons religious civs should be able to found consistently, but civs with no built-in faith should not be able to found, or should have to invest a lot of resources into that

3) Yield-heavy, but VERY low on faith

• God of All Creation - like pantheons that give you great immediate boost but should be almost impossible to found

Thing is that having "high risk - high reward" pantheons leads to the situations where player invests heavy into religion, than fails and he is screwed. This demotivates most of players from continuing the game. As for myself, for example speaking of Craftsmen i always have the same idea in mind and it is "if i succed in founding - i'm great, but i need to invest a lot without any confidence that it will pay off. And if i fail - i got nothing from my pantheon AND i put myself behind because i invested a lot"

 

[ElliotS]

Open Sky is really strong. All that gold is great early on. The culture bonus is very powerful with several unique improvements. Shoshone and the Huns can both rock this.

God-King has got to be the absolute strangest comparison. Did you mean God of All Creation? That pantheon might be a touch too strong to be honest. 2 faith in every city is noticeably stronger than 1 faith.


It seems really good to me if you have some wheat in your capital, but otherwise not really. Compare it to fertility (which is apparently bad) and it look solid to me. 4 food and 2 faith vs 2 gold and 2 faith. 25% growth vs 3 food on wheat.

I mean God of the Sun is great if you have a ton of wheat, but long term I'm not convinced. I would much rather build a shrine or a well before a granary. You can compare it pretty closely to Commerce as well, and Commerce's long term benefit is really strong, and it has great synergy with progress.

Then I would reduce gold by 1 for more faith if it's too strong otherwise. I agree that high-risk high-reward is a bad idea. It makes it so that you also need to take big risks to keep up with anyone else, because someone will succeed and get a high-reward you need to match.

 

[CrazyG]

3) Yield-heavy, but VERY low on faith

• God of All Creation - like pantheons that give you great immediate boost but should be almost impossible to found

Do we need a 3rd category that has only one pantheon?

I can found pretty consistently with most pantheons. The trade off that usually happens is if I have a low faith option, I won't be building wonders. I'll build shrines earlier instead of monuments. There is this giant exception in God of All Creation, which promotes this skip religion, maul your neighbor strategy

You are all saying Sun is OP, but I've got no start with more than two wheats nearby in a long time. What is apparently breaking that part is in flood plains, but you know that G wanted to have a backup for desert starts, so if anything, switch some Sun bonuses with the Desert one.

This is my thoughts. It seems great if you get a ton of wheat, but I don't get that much wheat very often. I think people are overlooking that you really don't want the granary to be your first or second building and taking this really messes up your build order. Upgrading monuments or shrines is much smoother.

 

[Owlbebach]

Do we need a 3rd category that has only one pantheon?

I can found pretty consistently with most pantheons. The trade off that usually happens is if I have a low faith option, I won't be building wonders. I'll build shrines earlier instead of monuments. There is this giant exception in God of All Creation, which promotes this skip religion, maul your neighbor strategy

I actually think that there should be more options like this. I think it is a good thing that improves diversitty and strategical depth of the game. You can opt to give up on Religion get a great start instead and snowball it after

Back in time Earth Mother was giving +3 from Monument and it was an example of this type (though it was OP). I think it would be cool to bring it back making +2 instead of awkward hammers per follower that are again exactly the "high risk - high reward" type of pantheon. Another one was Ancestor that was giving +2 from Councils and it was a really good non founding option, i like current version much less.

 

[CrabHelmet]

This is my thoughts. It seems great if you get a ton of wheat, but I don't get that much wheat very often. I think people are overlooking that you really don't want the granary to be your first or second building and taking this really messes up your build order. Upgrading monuments or shrines is much smoother.

I missed this, sorry. Why do you think this? Shrines give +2 Faith. With God of the Sun, Granaries give +2 Faith, +2 Gold, +1 Food yield to a wide range of tiles, and accelerate City growth. The two cost the same production. Rather than messing up my build order, my build order becomes miles easier - I can go Monument -> Granary or even just start straight with Granary. Shrines become almost redundant - I still build them for the Faith, but they can get pushed up the production line a little. I would have said God of Sun's biggest advantage is the changed build order.

 

[CrazyG]

I missed this, sorry. Why do you think this? Shrines give +2 Faith. With God of the Sun, Granaries give +2 Faith, +2 Gold, +1 Food yield to a wide range of tiles, and accelerate City growth.

Granary gives a net of only +1 gold, not +2, because it still has -1 maintenance.

I just want to compare Sun (which people are saying is great) who builds Granary first to Fertility (people are saying is horrible) who goes shrine first.

Ignoring resources, after building just 1 building.
With Fertility and Shrine first, that city has +2 food, +3 faith, +25% growth.
With Fertility and Well first, that city has +3 food, +1 faith, +2 hammers, + extra hammers for population, +25% food.
With Sun and Granary first, that city gets +1 food, +2 faith, +1 gold, +15% growth retained.

Bison and deer resources don't actually favor the granary first as much as you would think. The granary gives bison and deer +1 food, right? Well, Fertility gives those 3 food tiles +0.75 food (and its not like you never build a granary, you eventually get that +1 food too). Its complex which is better, it will depend on positioning of rivers, other growth % boosts, and how many granary resources you have (but really Sun needs wheat, bison and deer benefit both). On average, Sun might have better short term, but I think Fertility has better long term. I don't think either is clearly better than the other, I just don't understand the people telling me Sun is OP even without floodplain science and Fertility is crap. I've played Fertility many times and I can tell you that your if second city goes well first it grows very quickly and has strong production, its a strong early game play.

After basic buildings are all built, this becomes
Fertility: 4 food, 2 faith, +25% growth
Sun: 2 faith, 2 gold, +3 food on wheat

Long term is simple. If you have enough wheat, Sun is better, and it should be better. Otherwise Fertility is better. I think if you ditch this science for floodplains things which causes you to just auto-win when the stars align, Sun is a balanced pantheon.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Granary gives a net of only +1 gold, not +2, because it still has -1 maintenance.

...I've actually only just noticed this is true. All this time, I thought adding Gold to it meant the maintenance disappeared. I take it all back, you're quite right.

 

[CrabHelmet]

That said, I do stand by Fertility being too Faith-low. Rather than +1 on Water Mills, couldn't it be +1 on Cities on Rivers? If you want to found with Fertility, you have to settle off Rivers, but settling off Rivers works against what Fertility is supposed to do since you get less Food for it. Alternatively, you could take @ElliotS' suggestion of +1 per 10. I also stand by Open Sky and Craftsmen being ever so lightly too low - I think both could do with +1 on their unimproved non-Luxury resources. What do you think of those?

 

[CrazyG]

Alternatively, you could take @ElliotS' suggestion of +1 per 10.

1 faith for 10 food would be way too much

 

[Gazebo]

Granary gives a net of only +1 gold, not +2, because it still has -1 maintenance.

I just want to compare Sun (which people are saying is great) who builds Granary first to Fertility (people are saying is horrible) who goes shrine first.

Ignoring resources, after building just 1 building.
With Fertility and Shrine first, that city has +2 food, +3 faith, +25% growth.
With Fertility and Well first, that city has +3 food, +1 faith, +2 hammers, + extra hammers for population, +25% food.
With Sun and Granary first, that city gets +1 food, +2 faith, +1 gold, +15% growth retained.

Bison and deer resources don't actually favor the granary first as much as you would think. The granary gives bison and deer +1 food, right? Well, Fertility gives those 3 food tiles +0.75 food (and its not like you never build a granary, you eventually get that +1 food too). Its complex which is better, it will depend on positioning of rivers, other growth % boosts, and how many granary resources you have (but really Sun needs wheat, bison and deer benefit both). On average, Sun might have better short term, but I think Fertility has better long term. I don't think either is clearly better than the other, I just don't understand the people telling me Sun is OP even without floodplain science and Fertility is crap. I've played Fertility many times and I can tell you that your if second city goes well first it grows very quickly and has strong production, its a strong early game play.

After basic buildings are all built, this becomes
Fertility: 4 food, 2 faith, +25% growth
Sun: 2 faith, 2 gold, +3 food on wheat

Long term is simple. If you have enough wheat, Sun is better, and it should be better. Otherwise Fertility is better. I think if you ditch this science for floodplains things which causes you to just auto-win when the stars align, Sun is a balanced pantheon.

Flood Plains would become the only feature without a pantheon buff. Perhaps just change it off Science and into something more neutral, like GAP?

G

 

[Owlbebach]

Flood Plains would become the only feature without a pantheon buff. Perhaps just change it off Science and into something more neutral, like GAP?

Does it really need it? Flood Plains are by default a "buffed tile". Even without a pantheon

 

[Stalker0]

Does it really need it? Flood Plains are by default a "buffed tile". Even without a pantheon

I agree. I never go...."damn, flood plains?....what the heck am I going to do with these?"

 

[Gazebo]

Does it really need it? Flood Plains are by default a "buffed tile". Even without a pantheon

I dunno, but its worth noting that they'd be left out.

G

 

[Owlbebach]

Flood Plains would become the only feature without a pantheon buff. Perhaps just change it off Science and into something more neutral, like GAP?

I strongly advise you to look at Plains. You can say that Open Sky buffs it, but problem is that many Plains starts are unplayable due to lack of food. On Grassland you lack hammers, but you can work Hills and Forests. On Plains you are screwed, because Wheat on Plains is not enough, Forests give 1 food and you only can get food from Luxuries. Sometimes you have it, but if you do - it is not enough. And if you have something like minable Luxuries on Plains - you are in a VERY bad spot.
Sun is an ideal pantheon for Plains with its Granary/Wheat stuff

 

[CrabHelmet]

Not true. Snow and Ice would also be left out!

(... )

 

[Gazebo]

Not true. Snow and Ice would also be left out!

(... )

Those are terrain types, not features.

G

 

[CrazyG]

God of the Stars and Sky could affect resources on snow! Pretty please?

 

[CrabHelmet]

God of the Stars and Sky could affect resources on snow! Pretty please?

 

[tu_79]

I agree. I never go...."damn, flood plains?....what the heck am I going to do with these?"

Nope, but you could say, hey, I have flood plains, maybe I can get my religion thanks to this pantheon. But flood plains are 3-5 tiles at best in 1-2 cities. So maybe you could use a pantheon that in other circumstances would allow for founding a religion, but not when you are in a flood plain, and let it boost heavily flood plains for those that do not expect to found.