Going for Gold: Promotions
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Couple of my thoughts:
1) Dunno, i've always hated Drill line, it is so underwhelming compared to Shock. Couple of my last aggressive games i specially tried to promote several units with Drill because people were saying here and there that Drill is so good.
By the end of Classical they were the most useless units in my army... I do not have any ideas on what should be changed, if everyone still think that Drill is good - let it be. Drill is awful because you do not attack city with units, they die too fast. And March+couple of Medic II guys is so awesome.
My idea is to move March to Drill line and Blitz/Stalwart to Shock line. Another idea was that i had in mind was to make Alhambra grant Shock instead of Drill, but imo this will not solve the problem. I still will be choosing Shock over Drill for all units (or at least for all of my units except first 3-5 units in Ancient Era).
I'm actually coming to the idea that March might be too strong in human hands. However i do not like the idea of removing it cause it is so cool gameplay-wise. Not sure about this...
2) Ranged promotions also may be tweaked. I always pick Accuracy for every single ranged unit. Dealing extra damage vs units above 50% HP is so much better than dealing damage vs units below 50% HP. Units that are already wounded to 50%HP can't fight anyway. They do not deal damage and you can deal more damage to them. Double shot is good of course, but not worth taking 3 Barrage instead of 3 Accuracy.
My suggestion is to change it to "extra damage against above 75% HP" and "extra damage against below 75% HP" This will make much more sense. Think of it this way: unit that has 25% HP isn't actually a unit anymore, it is only a placeholder, it can't tank damage and it can't deal damage, so it is more or less not a unit anymore, it is either already dead or will take 10 turns to get out of the fight and heal up. EDIT: Same with Naval ranged promotions
1) Dunno, i've always hated Drill line, it is so underwhelming compared to Shock. Couple of my last aggressive games i specially tried to promote several units with Drill because people were saying here and there that Drill is so good.
By the end of Classical they were the most useless units in my army... I do not have any ideas on what should be changed, if everyone still think that Drill is good - let it be. Drill is awful because you do not attack city with units, they die too fast. And March+couple of Medic II guys is so awesome.
My idea is to move March to Drill line and Blitz/Stalwart to Shock line. Another idea was that i had in mind was to make Alhambra grant Shock instead of Drill, but imo this will not solve the problem. I still will be choosing Shock over Drill for all units (or at least for all of my units except first 3-5 units in Ancient Era).
I'm actually coming to the idea that March might be too strong in human hands. However i do not like the idea of removing it cause it is so cool gameplay-wise. Not sure about this...
2) Ranged promotions also may be tweaked. I always pick Accuracy for every single ranged unit. Dealing extra damage vs units above 50% HP is so much better than dealing damage vs units below 50% HP. Units that are already wounded to 50%HP can't fight anyway. They do not deal damage and you can deal more damage to them. Double shot is good of course, but not worth taking 3 Barrage instead of 3 Accuracy.
My suggestion is to change it to "extra damage against above 75% HP" and "extra damage against below 75% HP" This will make much more sense. Think of it this way: unit that has 25% HP isn't actually a unit anymore, it is only a placeholder, it can't tank damage and it can't deal damage, so it is more or less not a unit anymore, it is either already dead or will take 10 turns to get out of the fight and heal up. EDIT: Same with Naval ranged promotions
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I concur on 2) but just can't on 1). In a proper siege, a Drill melee unit is very valuable and, if it's even slightly ahead in tech level, absolutely crushing. The show stopper is the way Civ handles city attack. it's really an unintuitive steep curve of damage (which seem to scale differently either because of era or different formula: see late game city damage) where either you get destroyied or chunk a quarter of the city with a sword swing
it might be a distorted perception but, unless the CS of both city and unit attacking is dead even, the underdog is getting crushed. I like Drill. I pick Shock on Horseman line and on a few selected units.About Ranged promotions, I wholeheartedly agree: Accuracy is by far the best and it's also giving the highest flat damage for some reason. What you propose is a bit drastic, it could be "above 66% hp" and "below 66% hp" instead and evening out the RC (or not) would do the trick.
Now I think we gotta talk about Indirect Fire. Last game all was well until Catherine decided she had enough, built a dozen Field Guns and coupled them with a few Lancers and Cossacks and just about destroyied everything effortlessly. Now I'm pretty sure the trick is in the Cossacks knockback and Indirect Fire making this strategy hell for the defender, but seeing no melee nor gun units in an army that just walked over 2 civs (ok, Brasil and Babylon, not the best warmongers) raised an eyebrow. Maybe this is not the right place to talk about this, but if Field Guns get Indirect Fire for free before Paratrooper is a thing (is it, ever?), it can get a bit overwhelming: my Foreign Legions with Cover II were getting destroyied.
tu_79
Deity
Guys, melee and ranged promotions are OK. Maybe you don't find them useful for your play style, but I'm consistently picking diverse promotions for my units and all of them have a role.
Maybe having the bonus for units over 75%HP could be slightly more balanced, but the difference is not worth the change.
Maybe having the bonus for units over 75%HP could be slightly more balanced, but the difference is not worth the change.
I love drill, 0 issues with it.
The ranged bonus I could somewhat understand, I really don’t like barrage. But if your going to tweak it you could just go with one works on fully healed units the other works on injured units. Effectively charge for ranged units.
The ranged bonus I could somewhat understand, I really don’t like barrage. But if your going to tweak it you could just go with one works on fully healed units the other works on injured units. Effectively charge for ranged units.
ElliotS
Warmonger
Drill is amazing, and I think that using melee units effectively in a siege is an area that you can improve in if you think otherwise. You can't be mindless, but there are plenty of times and places where it can make all the difference. Not to mention how freaking good stalwart and blitz are.
Stalwart makes a unit have 45% more CS on defense than march. Units that get 1-shot with march just tend not to with Stalwart. Not to mention that means healing is 45% more effective because they have 45% more effective HP.
I agree that it should be 75% where the lines split, and I think that's exactly the point of this thread. That said right now I build my archers 3-1 accuracy-barrage because the damage type is still useful.
Stalwart makes a unit have 45% more CS on defense than march. Units that get 1-shot with march just tend not to with Stalwart. Not to mention that means healing is 45% more effective because they have 45% more effective HP.
I agree that it should be 75% where the lines split, and I think that's exactly the point of this thread. That said right now I build my archers 3-1 accuracy-barrage because the damage type is still useful.
Mad Madigan
Prince
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In my mind both Drill and Shock have their purposes and are pretty evenly useful, assuming you intend to be crushing cities with melee units instead of whittling cities down with ranged units and then capturing them with one melee unit once they reach 0 HP. If you're ahead of the tech curve and can get to cities before they have their defensive buildings up then Drill melee units can crush them pretty easily. But in pretty much any other circumstance Shock is better. However, I feel that Blitz is too good to pass up compared to March if you go Authority, and March is too good to pass up if you don't go Authority (that Heal on Kill policy makes or breaks these promotions). So every game it comes down to: If select Authority, then select Drill; or If select !Authority, then select Shock. If Blitz and March were switched I think I would pick Shock in almost all circumstances, so it is best if they remain where they are.
Mad Madigan
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It does, but only when the unit attacks the city, and only because the relative 
of the unit is buffed for the purposes of attack. It does not lower the damage from ranged city attacks, nor does it affect the damage from a garrisoned unit attacking. However, Stalwart and Cover do lower incoming damage from the city and garrisoned units, and they're both unlocked from taking the Drill line.
of the unit is buffed for the purposes of attack. It does not lower the damage from ranged city attacks, nor does it affect the damage from a garrisoned unit attacking. However, Stalwart and Cover do lower incoming damage from the city and garrisoned units, and they're both unlocked from taking the Drill line.
pineappledan
Deity
Yeah, I think land units promotion lines are pretty good. Only minor tweaks, and stuff that I would say is just preference.
- I think the March promotion makes more sense on the drill promotion line, which I see as being the more defensive/disciplinary line. Blitz makes more sense as being on the offensive line.
- The tier 4 "infiltrator" promotion for ranged units only gives +15% CS/RCS in enemy territory. That seems really low to me, and I've never felt tempted to pick it. I think 20% would be more appropriate.
- The Range promotion getting given for free to ranged units in industrial makes it, at best, unattractive, and at worst, vile trickery. The range promotion should be eliminated entirely from naval promotion lines, and the range should be put directly onto the base cruiser/battleship. This also means that the range on cruisers and battleships would represent the actual range of the unit. Fancy that.
- With range being what it is now, Logistics is the only worthwhile T4 promotion for ranged naval units. After that, the +1 sight and +1 move promotions from T3 are far more attractive than any of the other choices.
- The naval melee boarding party line gives +50% flanking bonus on each level AND +10% CS. The 50% on flanking is arguably too good, especially with how easy it is to flank in naval battles, but compare that to Pincer, a T4 promotion which gives 50% flanking bonus. That's it. It is a T4 leaf promotion that is worse than the stem promotion line.
- There are tons of promotions which boost city attack on both melee and ranged naval lines, but I think there needs to be some T3 or T4 leaf bonus vs land units.
- vision and movement are king in naval battles, because movement is unrestricted and there's a lot of space to cover. I'm surprised there aren't any T4 promotions which recognize this point. I have some ideas:
- Get rid of +1 vision as a T3 leaf promotion, and make a new T4 promotion: "Crow's Nest", which gives +2 vision
- Get rid of +1 movement as a T3 leaf promotion, and add +1 movement onto the T4 "Slipstream" promotion (so now it is +1 movement, ignores ZOC)
- Keep +1 vision and +1 Move as T3 leaf promotions, but add a T4 promotion called "Surveyor"
Yes, exactly! I might be biased cause i play Deity only, which means i NEVER fight againts civ that has lower tech level. Usualy fighting on the same level of tech is a peace of cake, most likely i fight offensively being 1 tech level behing. I NEVER attack cities with melee units because they die right after that.
Man this is just outright wrong. First of all Stalwart is 35%, not 45% but that should be a typo.
I understand your idea but all those %s are additive, after you get Stalwart - you already have Drill III at least, you also have some Flanking bonus, you probably have Morale and another 10% form Authority and usually something else (like a hill/forest/river). That means that you have at least ~+70-90% from other stuff and additional +35% from Stalwart, so Stalwart gets you from +85% to +120%, which is actually gives you 18% increase instead of 35%!
On the other hand if your unit with March has just attacked enemy's unit - it will immedeately heal 15HP before defending. If your unit is 70HP after attack - it will heal 15 HP which is 21% increase, and if your unit is 40% HP after attack - March will give it 37,5% more HP! (if you do not have Medic2 near your March units - you are a fool).
Makes me wonder if we shouldn't nerf the amount of health gained by medic/march...
Re: naval promotions- all, we're in tweak numbers stage, not invent 100 new promotions stage. Stick to the program.
G
I would refer to my previous example, because this was that game when i tried Drill with ~10 units (as per your advice @ElliotS) and understood that they are peace of crap.
How is Drill gonna help in this fight?
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/blitz-mobility-stalwart.631573/#post-15106756
Now another important thing to note is that i very much agree that Drill might be more useful in easier fights (i.g. when you have tech advantage or enemy does not have walls against your Spearmen), but i do not want to discuss this because this is pointless, otherwise we should discuss which promotions are stronger on Bombers agains Artillery.
EDIT: i don't think Medic should be touched and i don't think March concept should be reworked. My idea is still in place - to change March do Drill line cause imo Drill itself is weaker than Shock. Also there is Alhambra, whic also grants Drill. THough as to my playstyle it will make agressive Deity MUCH harder ;O
How is Drill gonna help in this fight?
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/blitz-mobility-stalwart.631573/#post-15106756
Now another important thing to note is that i very much agree that Drill might be more useful in easier fights (i.g. when you have tech advantage or enemy does not have walls against your Spearmen), but i do not want to discuss this because this is pointless, otherwise we should discuss which promotions are stronger on Bombers agains Artillery.
Yeah, i was thinking about making March granting +1 HP per turn (a tip for newbies to use it together with Medic might be required)
EDIT: i don't think Medic should be touched and i don't think March concept should be reworked. My idea is still in place - to change March do Drill line cause imo Drill itself is weaker than Shock. Also there is Alhambra, whic also grants Drill. THough as to my playstyle it will make agressive Deity MUCH harder ;O
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chicorbeef
Emperor
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You could go Drill-->Cover I-II in that game, that's a popular path with Drill.
Before the pitch forks come out on March, we had one person chime in that it was all they used, and then we immediately saw several people chime in that drill was good and they used it plenty.
March is just fine. Its strong...as a good high level promotion should be. But its not so strong I always take shock. In fact I still take drill more often than shock. Blitz, Stalwart...great promotions. I have never gone...but these aren't march. They all are powerful, fun, and useful
I also think land promotions are fine. Most tweaking is player preference at this point.
Talking Naval. I get that the range promotion is inelegant right now. I personally don't mind if we want to drop it, but I also don't mind leaving it in. I use it currently. Yes does it get wasted later in the game. It does, but it puts on a hell of show until then. Lots of things in Civ are useful early and then taper off, doesn't mean they weren't overall useful. I agree that Pincer is boring compared to the naval promotions before it....though it is still quite powerful. When someone asks "well what good is that promotion" my answer is "it helps shred other ships like they are cottage cheese". Power is always sexy!
Again, I don't mind changing it to make it more interesting, but its doesn't need to be more powerful.
Now I do like the idea of combining the +1 speed or +1 sight with some of the other promotions. Those promotions are useful on ships...but it still feels like a waste to have to promote just for that. Combining them without something else I could be in favor of.
March is just fine. Its strong...as a good high level promotion should be. But its not so strong I always take shock. In fact I still take drill more often than shock. Blitz, Stalwart...great promotions. I have never gone...but these aren't march. They all are powerful, fun, and useful
I also think land promotions are fine. Most tweaking is player preference at this point.
Talking Naval. I get that the range promotion is inelegant right now. I personally don't mind if we want to drop it, but I also don't mind leaving it in. I use it currently. Yes does it get wasted later in the game. It does, but it puts on a hell of show until then. Lots of things in Civ are useful early and then taper off, doesn't mean they weren't overall useful. I agree that Pincer is boring compared to the naval promotions before it....though it is still quite powerful. When someone asks "well what good is that promotion" my answer is "it helps shred other ships like they are cottage cheese". Power is always sexy!
Again, I don't mind changing it to make it more interesting, but its doesn't need to be more powerful.Now I do like the idea of combining the +1 speed or +1 sight with some of the other promotions. Those promotions are useful on ships...but it still feels like a waste to have to promote just for that. Combining them without something else I could be in favor of.
See my post above where i layed out why Stalwart is not as strong as it seems. Thing is that bonus HP is multiplicative and bonus %s are additive
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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+1 HP per turn? It wouldn't even be worth the 10% penalty. It'd suddenly turn unpickable. That penalty is why Elliot "don't dare to go to Chicago" S. said it's a 45% difference, it's because you lose 10% of CS on defense if you take March.
As it is I think March is probably better than Stalwart anyway, but Drill has two good promotions, Blitz and Stalwart, to compensate. A guy with Stalwart is really tough to take out fast, though, so they're sidegrades in a way, except March's frequently better. But if you go March route, you miss out on Blitz until you get enough Drills, so it's okay in my opinion. The Stalwart nuts are tough to crack in one turn, after which they can just fortify and get effectively the same stuff but better.
ashendashin
King
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Drill fits a few key roles for me; taking down cities ASAP with mounted/armor, increasing the defense of standard melee units, and removing enemy mounted with Formation. Mounted can take advantage of pillaging to keep themselves alive so the added damage to garrisons will quickly allow the few standard units I had soaking damage to join in on pummeling the city. If your strategy is based on a reliable but slow moving wall of standard units then Shock/March is clearly better.
All that matters in an offensive melee are the hard hitting 4 movement units. Standard units are just the filler/minimum so the faster Cover and any extra defense is all that's necessary for them.
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pineappledan
Deity
reducing march to 5HP per turn, base (10 in friendly, 5 in neutral, 1 in enemy) makes sense, imo. I don't like the idea of reducing it to 1HP in all cases; that makes the promotion effectively useless without an adjacent medic unit.
chicorbeef
Emperor
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First of all, ElliotS's figure is not a typo, March has a -10% defense penalty and that's where his 45% figure comes from.
Second of all, I could make the argument about bonus HP not being as good as you think it is. It is only useful when your unit is damaged, and only takes effect after the attack. Getting +15 hp when you have 40 hp does not mean your unit gets +37.5% stronger in most cases because damage from HP loss does not work that way. And leaving a critically wounded unit on the front line is a dubious decision-you'd have to get an efficient unit cycle going to take advantage of it.
Your enemy is likely to have all the same modifiers you have, so while +50% CS may not prove as much a difference as you hope, it can still be a deal-breaker. +50% CS on a Tercio is still always an extra +12.5 CS, that's a lot.
Shock is not bad, when you have a large offensive infantry/ranged based army that you've been promoting from the start of the game like that of course it's going to be a primary option. Shock gets more and more useful as the game goes on in my experience. As ashendashin said, though, if you want quick bang for your buck, especially early on, Drill is worth considering. Drill gets quite useful with just 2 promotions (gets Cover 1) and can have a very meaningful buff early on with just 3 promotions (Cover 2), while March requires 4 promotions (3 if you're using Swords/Longswords) and isn't particularly useful before you get March.
I think March is fine the way it is-it heals +5 HP in enemy territory, which really does not need to be nerfed further. +15 HP per turn is very good but I don't think it's OP. The only thing I'm concerned about is if the AI knows how to line up Medics with them.
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