Going for Gold: Reformation Beliefs

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?


  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
8,825
Recent patches have nerfed science comeback mechanics (spies) sufficiently that I value science more now and culture a little less.

This is a fair point. The old wisdom that culture is the most important yield in the mid game might waver a bit if science remains this hard to maintain (spies are really weak on science rubberband right now). My gut says it won't remain this weak, but its probably worth seeing where it settles before we truly change something based on the culture vs science dynamic.
 

CrazyG

Deity
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
5,779
Location
Beijing
Yea TTGOG is strong but not an automatic choice, largely because of how strong the other options can be. It's strength also depends on what social policies you took, if you playing for science and you took progress-fealty-rationalism, you already have the most important 3 great people.

I've always viewed the primary benefit of Crusader Spirit as the combat bonus, but I agree it hasn't kept up with some of the other beliefs.
 

DeAnno

King
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
642
I think people are underselling the yields from TtGoG a little bit, at least if you managed to convert someone. If you can maintain the full 20 cities (call it two 8 city empires and four CS), thats 60:c5science::c5culture::c5gold: for every GP. Assuming you have like, maybe 8 Amphitheaters with FoTM, that's 16:c5culture: in bonus yields. If we call :c5science: worth about as much as :c5culture:, especially on this new spy system, and :c5gold: worth maybe a quarter as much, that's equivalent to ~135:c5culture:. So if you pop a GP every 8 turns or so that equalizes the yields until Opera Houses. That's more than a little optimistic, but even getting them less quickly or with less cities will really cut at the early advantage some of these other beliefs can give.

And later on, in Industrial, well those yields aren't that hot anymore but you are getting them once per five turns like clockwork in addition to the normal triggers. And basically any civ is going to be able to either get Great Writers or Great Generals they don't deserve, in addition to either Great Artists or Great Diplomats they don't deserve (the Diplomats are still usually useful for embassies at the very start of Industrial in my games.) Like, I know stuff on delay is bad, but 2+ each of a bunch of different GP is just a very lot.
 

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
8,825
I think people are underselling the yields from TtGoG a little bit, at least if you managed to convert someone. If you can maintain the full 20 cities (call it two 8 city empires and four CS), thats 60:c5science::c5culture::c5gold: for every GP. Assuming you have like, maybe 8 Amphitheaters with FoTM, that's 16:c5culture: in bonus yields. If we call :c5science: worth about as much as :c5culture:, especially on this new spy system, and :c5gold: worth maybe a quarter as much, that's equivalent to ~135:c5culture:. So if you pop a GP every 8 turns or so that equalizes the yields until Opera Houses. That's more than a little optimistic, but even getting them less quickly or with less cities will really cut at the early advantage some of these other beliefs can give.

And later on, in Industrial, well those yields aren't that hot anymore but you are getting them once per five turns like clockwork in addition to the normal triggers. And basically any civ is going to be able to either get Great Writers or Great Generals they don't deserve, in addition to either Great Artists or Great Diplomats they don't deserve (the Diplomats are still usually useful for embassies at the very start of Industrial in my games.) Like, I know stuff on delay is bad, but 2+ each of a bunch of different GP is just a very lot.

I mean as you said, your being a bit optimistic to get the yields you mentioned. Now granted, the yields from TTGOG are perfectly fine....which is why its a good and solid belief. It gets you enough yields to keep it working until the big bonuses comes in later in the game.
 

Kim Dong Un

The One & Unly
Supporter
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
981
Location
Pyongyang
Well would you look at that... I just came here to comment on how low TtGoG yields are, and it seems it has already been a recent topic of discussion. I understand that the meat of the belief lies within the faith purchase ability, but I agree the standard yields are still too low. The yields are almost insulting while having my entire continent converted; I think the yields should top out at 100 instead of 60.
 

azum4roll

Emperor
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
1,935
It's only there so the belief has some use before Industrial.
 

Drakle

Emperor
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
Messages
1,285
If you make the yields better, maybe the counterpoint can be that faith purchasing great people, you haven't unlocked with a policy tree, cost more.
 

Kim Dong Un

The One & Unly
Supporter
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
981
Location
Pyongyang
I'm not even asking for anything crazy, just something that's not practically non-existent; bump the yields from 3 to 5 and I'm probably content (so a max of 100 yields instead of 60).
 

bonniepbilly

Warlord
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
125
Hi there! What's the status of the discussion on TtGoG? I thought there was at least some agreement to nerf the GP buy? (there seems to be less agreement on the yields)
What about doubling the cost of all GP? Because of the exponential cost, it would reduce each GP type purchase by 1 or 2, not much more, right?
 

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
8,825
Hi there! What's the status of the discussion on TtGoG? I thought there was at least some agreement to nerf the GP buy? (there seems to be less agreement on the yields)
What about doubling the cost of all GP? Because of the exponential cost, it would reduce each GP type purchase by 1 or 2, not much more, right?

No poll was done that I know of, and frankly I don't think there was real consensus, I personally don't think its the strongest belief or anything, its just a very very good belief for certain build orders (such as me splitting my policies across multiple trees).
 

chicorbeef

Emperor
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,546
About Reformations, I think Jesuit Education/Defender of the Faith could use another pass. Jesuit Education in particular just feels straight up inferior to Faith of the Masses, I would only pick it if the AI took Faith of the Masses already.
 
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