Going for Gold: Reformation Beliefs

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?


  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
9,570
Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Important Notes:

1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
 

tu_79

Deity
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
7,371
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Malaga (Spain)
Isn't Jesuit Education mandatory for a scientific victory? Even without enough faith points to faith purchase the buildings, there's a massive science bonus in every scientific building since Universities, faith purchased or not.
The cultural counterpart is not as strong as JE, since it doesn't give tourism (with hotels and airports later, and in lesser amount), so for cultural victories you can use other reformation beliefs.
 

tu_79

Deity
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
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Malaga (Spain)
Not remotely. I would almost always take Sainthood over it, but actually go with Pacifism most of the time.
Does pacifism work now? It gives happiness, allowing your population to grow, and I guess you use it for science. But don't they declare war on you massively once you take the lead? How do you handle unhappiness then?
 

Txurce

Deity
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Jan 4, 2002
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Does pacifism work now? It gives happiness, allowing your population to grow, and I guess you use it for science. But don't they declare war on you massively once you take the lead? How do you handle unhappiness then?

I don't handle unhappiness! When I lose a Progress game, 3 out of 4 times it's due to unhappiness. Pacifism used to be all I needed, but not any more.
 

Txurce

Deity
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Jan 4, 2002
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Remember the good old days when we fought the AI instead of the unseen invisible mob of dissidents? :)

Ha ha! Yeah, dissidents who have no respect for constables, police, or anything else! Doesn't matter what you give them? They're professional malcontents.
 

Owlbebach

Emperor
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Jun 5, 2016
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Moscow
I kinda think that Jesuit Education and Faith for Masses might loose additional science and culture on buildings, but become cheaper in terms of faith. It will be more interesting gameplay-wise, currently you usually don't buy them for faith cause they are too expensive, you just build them but get huge boost. It will be more intetesting when you can get them faster but they are still the same strenght
 

ridjack

King
Joined
Mar 12, 2017
Messages
999
I kinda think that Jesuit Education and Faith for Masses might loose additional science and culture on buildings, but become cheaper in terms of faith. It will be more interesting gameplay-wise, currently you usually don't buy them for faith cause they are too expensive, you just build them but get huge boost. It will be more intetesting when you can get them faster but they are still the same strenght

They're definitely way too faith-expensive right now. In my mind, Jesuit Education has always seemed like it's intended to be a 'wide science' belief, except that it's extraordinarily difficult to get the faith to buy them even for just a few cities, and likewise difficult to hard-build them in all your cities to get the +15 bonus; similarly, tall empires have an even harder time generating enough faith, and the +15 total bonus seems somewhat underwhelming except possibly in a Tradition capitol.
 

tu_79

Deity
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Messages
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Location
Malaga (Spain)
They're definitely way too faith-expensive right now. In my mind, Jesuit Education has always seemed like it's intended to be a 'wide science' belief, except that it's extraordinarily difficult to get the faith to buy them even for just a few cities, and likewise difficult to hard-build them in all your cities to get the +15 bonus; similarly, tall empires have an even harder time generating enough faith, and the +15 total bonus seems somewhat underwhelming except possibly in a Tradition capitol.
It works very well for Tradition, since buildings are hard to build, but faith is there. Faith-buying in the cities with less production is worth it.
 

Paramecium

Prince
Joined
Jul 14, 2016
Messages
346
What are your experiences about "Global Commandents"? It is kind of jack of all trades, giving you all kind of yields per turn and a big bunch if you pass a resolution. And you dont share the bonus with other followers of your religion.

The problem I see is, that the bonus comes quite late and you dont have a guaranty that you will be the host of the WC. You can try to beeline for caravels and explorers to meet everyone first and beeline for printing press to get the first host bonus. Or you have to have spread your Religion a lot and build your religion wonder. Or you have to have a lot of Great Diplomats founded embassies. A lot of uncertain conditions, you might lose the first host and even a lot of CS allies are no guaranty to get the second host.

It is a very strong believe for Austria and Germany, because those are the only onces who get additional votes earlier.

But if you just want to go for DV straight away, "One World, One Religion" is better, because you get extra votes straight away.

Sth. else, the bonus science and culture from Jesuit Education and Faith of Masses, do follower get it too? Or do get Follower the extra yields of all the Reformation beliefs boosting existing buildings/improvements?
 
Joined
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Other Civs benefit from Reformation. From To the Glory of God's Great Person purchasing to extra Science from Jesuit Education.
 

Paramecium

Prince
Joined
Jul 14, 2016
Messages
346
So, one world one religion has the civs you've converted boosted too? Nice!

Hm, it is good that follower will have the better spread, but giving them those votes too, I dont know...

This is a big draw. That said I've yet to pick it, because Crusader Spirit / Defender of the Faith.

Sure it is obviously not suited for pure warmongering. But if I understand it correctly, your followers will have it too, but there can be just one WC host. ;)
Only if your followers will pass their resolutions too, they will get something out of it. But from a selfish look it looks like the only Reformation Belief you dont have to share, at least not that much...
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2003
Messages
766
Sacred Sites is currently at odds with itself.

If you want to use SS, you want to go wide, to get a lot of those buildings. However, going wide gives you a crippling modifier to your tourism output, so the bonus you get from each additional city is almost zero.
I think it could use an additional bonus which reduces the tourism penalty from having many cities (if I had to throw out a number, I would say to 50%).
 
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