Going for Gold: Units

[CrazyG]

Rough terrain penalty gone is useless if it has 3 movement. It makes it good if it has 4 movement, but not its better in forests than in open terrain.

I really think the only way this unit works as a 1 range unit is either very high stats, including CS and RCS because it needs to tank hits. Or it has 5 movement.

I'm up for trying out chariots being a melee unit and horsemen unlocking later.

 

[chicorbeef]

Rough terrain penalty gone is useless if it has 3 movement. It makes it good if it has 4 movement, but not its better in forests than in open terrain.

I really think the only way this unit works as a 1 range unit is either very high stats, including CS and RCS because it needs to tank hits. Or it has 5 movement.

I'm up for trying out chariots being a melee unit and horsemen unlocking later.

I'm confident removing the Spearman malus would give them the necessary tankiness, then 7/8 CS/RCS would be decent enough stats.

Overincreasing its stats would reduce the relevance of the Skirmisher.

 

[Gazebo]

Rough terrain penalty gone is useless if it has 3 movement. It makes it good if it has 4 movement, but not its better in forests than in open terrain.

I really think the only way this unit works as a 1 range unit is either very high stats, including CS and RCS because it needs to tank hits. Or it has 5 movement.

I'm up for trying out chariots being a melee unit and horsemen unlocking later.

I think it's the most 'elegant' solution, honestly. Solves some issues people have with horsemen in MP, and brings chariots into relevance. Also resolves the pesky issue with having a ranged unit without unlocking archers first.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

I think it's the most 'elegant' solution, honestly. Solves some issues people have with horsemen in MP, and brings chariots into relevance. Also resolves the pesky issue with having a ranged unit without unlocking archers first.

G

But then Spears > Chariots, without Chariots having a real role.

 

[Gazebo]

But then Spears > Chariots, without Chariots having a real role.

You're assuming that they'll stay at their same CS/RCS - they won't - they'll be closer to horsemen, just without the mobility.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Any love for my idea of rolling chariot into a support role by giving them a 1-tile aura?

 

[chicorbeef]

You're assuming that they'll stay at their same CS/RCS - they won't - they'll be closer to horsemen, just without the mobility.

G

Without the mobility? Just what do you mean by that? And what CS do you have in mind? 12? 11?

Any love for my idea of rolling chariot into a support role by giving them a 1-tile aura?

Not a bad idea actually. Buuut....I think it's kind of unnecessary for now, we should make sure the stats/position of the Chariot are checked first.

 

[CrazyG]

You're assuming that they'll stay at their same CS/RCS - they won't - they'll be closer to horsemen, just without the mobility.

G

So they still have rough terrain penalty right?

 

[Gazebo]

So they still have rough terrain penalty right?

Yes. But otherwise I think a CS similar to horsemen would work with that. Still faster than spearmen, but with that penalty - and a penalty to hitting cities - they wouldn't be quite as painful as horserush.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

Yes. But otherwise I think a CS similar to horsemen would work with that. Still faster than spearmen, but with that penalty - and a penalty to hitting cities - they wouldn't be quite as painful as horserush.

G

I still abide by my original proposal, but that's not what the community wants, I guess.
What CS though? I'd say 12 CS. I don't want Chariots to be as powerful as Horses just with the rough terrain penalty, considering how early they come. There should be a rough rock-paper-scissors mechanic where Chariots>Archers>Spears>Chariots. I do want to keep Chariots stronger vs. Archers than Spearmen though.

War Chariots can be 13 though, that's fine.

What tech do you plan to have Chariots available?

 

[Gazebo]

Tinkered with making chariots melee, unfortunately there's no scripted melee attack for them, so they default to a very slow ranged attack. Not feasible. So, I think we keep things the way they are on that front, perhaps buff them a hair, drop horsemen by 1 CS, and call it a day.


G

 

[chicorbeef]

Tinkered with making chariots melee, unfortunately there's no scripted melee attack for them, so they default to a very slow ranged attack. Not feasible. So, I think we keep things the way they are on that front, perhaps buff them a hair, drop horsemen by 1 CS, and call it a day.


G

Wait, so no Horseman move to Classical? That was the thing I was more concerned about, actually. Even if we can't change the Chariot at all, I think that should at least be done.
So, did you verify whether removing Mounted class off Chariots works for the AI? Deadstarre said it worked promotion wise, so I can't really test much beyond that. Then buff them a hair and be done with it.

And if even removing Mounted Class is not possible, just add a -50% debuff vs. Chariots on Spears. Call it "Scythed Chariots" or something. It would have the same function as removing the mounted class. We could even extend it to Warriors for flavour, if you want.

 

[CppMaster]

Faster units have to be weaker, they make for it with its extra movement.

But they are not. Melee mounted units are stronger than their melee not mounted units from the same era, even when they both need strategic resource.

 

[tu_79]

But they are not. Melee mounted units are stronger than their melee not mounted units from the same era, even when they both need strategic resource.

Well, they have to be weaker if we want it completely balanced. Sometimes people prefer fun over balance. This is one of those times.

 

[CppMaster]

So they melee mounted units are stronger just for fun? It's weird. How it is more fun than balanced units?

 

[Gazebo]

Wait, so no Horseman move to Classical? That was the thing I was more concerned about, actually. Even if we can't change the Chariot at all, I think that should at least be done.
So, did you verify whether removing Mounted class off Chariots works for the AI? Deadstarre said it worked promotion wise, so I can't really test much beyond that. Then buff them a hair and be done with it.

And if even removing Mounted Class is not possible, just add a -50% debuff vs. Chariots on Spears. Call it "Scythed Chariots" or something. It would have the same function as removing the mounted class. We could even extend it to Warriors for flavour, if you want.

Moving it to classical IMO is unnecessary - if you move it to, say, Mathematics, it's a difference of one tech from where it is now. A rushing player will be delayed by 8-10 turns tops. Move it to Iron working and it's game over. No other tech makes sense (need a column between it and Knight) I'm not changing the tech tree layout.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Moving it to classical IMO is unnecessary - if you move it to, say, Mathematics, it's a difference of one tech from where it is now. A rushing player will be delayed by 8-10 turns tops. Move it to Iron working and it's game over. No other tech makes sense (need a column between it and Knight) I'm not changing the tech tree layout.

G

8-10 turn difference?

You can make military theory your 3rd or 4th tech on almost any start. Mathematics comes a minimum of 4 techs after military theory for someone trying to rush it. If you begin on a fishing, mining, quarry, or forest plantation luxury you cannot realistically beeline mathematics.

If you beeline mathematics, it means you are less likely to get Terracotta army. It means you delay arenas and watermills. The opportunity cost is really high.There is extensive conversation about trying to hit mathematics quickly on this forum (mostly because we love Hanging Gardens). Before turn 70 is fast. Researching military theory is very low opportunity cost, its right in the center of the tech tree and a pre-requisite for two popular classical era techs.

 

[ElliotS]

Moving it to classical IMO is unnecessary - if you move it to, say, Mathematics, it's a difference of one tech from where it is now. A rushing player will be delayed by 8-10 turns tops. Move it to Iron working and it's game over. No other tech makes sense (need a column between it and Knight) I'm not changing the tech tree layout.

G

Mathmatics kills horsemen dead, and makes no sense.

I'm really, really not convinced that horsemen need a nerf, but if they do it's 1 CS and nothing else.

I'm just going to put it out there that most of the people who complain about horsemen rush skimp on military and a swordsman rush would be just as powerful and harder to counter. You can get spearmen before horsemen, and they win a 1v1. They won't beat the horseman guy in a war, but can hold him off.

Bad for 1v1, but perfect in any other game where opportunity cost says that a prolonged conflict where you run your horsemen into a wall of spears instead of barbarians or a weaker person is a bad idea.

 

[Stalker0]

Bad for 1v1, but perfect in any other game where opportunity cost says that a prolonged conflict where you run your horsemen into a wall of spears instead of barbarians or a weaker person is a bad idea.

Agreed. I think this is a scenario where once again we have to choose our default settings for balance. 1 on 1s is not what the mod is intended for, and we shouldn't be optimizing for it.

 

[ElliotS]

Agreed. I think this is a scenario where once again we have to choose our default settings for balance. 1 on 1s is not what the mod is intended for, and we shouldn't be optimizing for it.

Nice quote attribution