Going for Gold: Units

[chicorbeef]

it doesn't, the pool comes from their attack range not the mounted status

UPDATE Units SET IsMounted = '1' WHERE CombatClass = 'UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER' AND Moves >= 3;
UPDATE Units SET IsMounted = '0' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CHARIOT_ARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET IsMounted = '0' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_EGYPTIAN_WARCHARIOT';


           <Type>PROMOTION_SKIRMISHER_MOBILITY</Type>
           <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_SKIRMISHER_MOBILITY</Description>
            ...
           <MaximumRangeRequired>1</MaximumRangeRequired>

The T4 promotions for the Ranged/Mounted Ranged lines would still be different, though, right? Would the Chariot still have access to T4 Skirmisher promotions even if its Mounted Class was removed? Would that even matter (not many Chariots will get to +100 XP pre-Skirmishers)?

However, I still feel like removing Spear vulnerability is more than possible even without this (add a 50% penalty to Chariots on Spears, could be justified thematically as being being stronger against the Horses but weaker against the riders).

I don't know if it's possible to just remove Chariots from the list of units that Spearmen get a bonus against, but that would be the cleanest solution.

 

[chicorbeef]

Does 'rough terrain penalty' make chariots interesting? Genuine question.

IF (big IF) people find chariots frustrating, what about this:

- Chariots/War Chariots become melee.
- Horsemen become a classical unit
- 'mounted skirmisher' line doesn't start until classical

Hm?

G

The issue with this in my mind is that Chariots would be outclassed by Spears pretty badly, and if we buff them too much, we're just making the Chariots into pseudo-Horsemen.

 

[Deadstarre]

That's only part of the story on the DLL side. Considering that I wrote all of that code, I think I'd know.

G

I just tested with that code, turning off mounted for chariots - no spear bonus and they still have access to the promos. maybe im missing something?

 

[Gazebo]

I just tested with that code, turning off mounted for chariots - no spear bonus and they still have access to the promos. maybe im missing something?

Sorry, I'm not being clear - I'm talking about the AI side of things. I could probably rewrite it all, but I'd rather not.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

Sorry, I'm not being clear - I'm talking about the AI side of things. I could probably rewrite it all, but I'd rather not.

G

But you proposed to change the chariot to melee. Wouldn't that require even more re-writing?

 

[Deadstarre]

Sorry, I'm not being clear - I'm talking about the AI side of things. I could probably rewrite it all, but I'd rather not.

G

I wouldnt want you to either. I just tested one more time and confirm AI is able to choose the promos and benefit from them as well though, so everything appears right to me; they can access and use/benefit from the promos. If there is any part of this im missing it would be cool to know =)

 

[CrabHelmet]

Does 'rough terrain penalty' make chariots interesting? Genuine question.

IF (big IF) people find chariots frustrating, what about this:

- Chariots/War Chariots become melee.
- Horsemen become a classical unit
- 'mounted skirmisher' line doesn't start until classical

Hm?

G

I suggested basically the same thing as this in the other thread. The only difference was that I suggested Skirmisher and Horsemen swap places, with Skirmisher's stats being adjusted appropriately, and costing significantly more Production than Chariots. Chariot promotes to Horseman.

 

[Gazebo]

But you proposed to change the chariot to melee. Wouldn't that require even more re-writing?

No, it'd just be a combatclass swap.

I wouldnt want you to either. I just tested one more time and confirm AI is able to choose the promos and benefit from them as well though, so everything appears right to me; they can access and use/benefit from the promos. If there is any part of this im missing it would be cool to know =)

Maybe I fixed it once upon a time and have since forgotten? I dunno, I wrote that code forever ago. Thanks for testing.

G

 

[Stalker0]

For the epic and Marathon players out there...do you actually use the chariot?

I’m more in line with just dropping the unit. Heck even gives a little memory back to the mod, and I know memory is tight right now

 

[Gazebo]

For the epic and Marathon players out there...do you actually use the chariot?

I’m more in line with just dropping the unit. Heck even gives a little memory back to the mod, and I know memory is tight right now

Hardly. Trivial.

G

 

[pineappledan]

I’m more in line with just dropping the unit.

that can’t be a serious position. Where would that leave Egypt? Or modded civs with chariot replacements?

 

[CppMaster]

Yeah, no point in removing the unit. Would +1RCS make them OP? If not then there is no reason to not doing it, right? Then reiterate.

 

[Stalker0]

that can’t be a serious position. Where would that leave Egypt? Or modded civs with chariot replacements?

Wouldn’t be the first time we have modified a UU.

We shouldn’t have things in the mod with little purpose, and shoe horning them in “just because” is not good design.

I’ve heard the argument that chariots aren’t worthwhile and I agree. But I haven’t seen a good argument to actually keep them other than if epic and marathon players use them. Warfare thst early in the game is bare bones...what do chariots bring that isn’t brought in just a little bit later

 

[chicorbeef]

Wouldn’t be the first time we have modified a UU.

We shouldn’t have things in the mod with little purpose, and shoe horning them in “just because” is not good design.

I’ve heard the argument that chariots aren’t worthwhile and I agree. But I haven’t seen a good argument to actually keep them other than if epic and marathon players use them. Warfare thst early in the game is bare bones...what do chariots bring that isn’t brought in just a little bit later

Moving Horsemen to Classical, there would definitely be a niche for a mobile unit in the Ancient Era. Also revamping Egypt's UU would be more work. And I disagree that Chariots wouldn't be worthwhile, a higher movement unit that can move after attacking with more CS/RCS than an Archer would have a solid niche.

 

[Stalker0]

and I disagree that Chariots wouldn't be worthwhile, a higher movement unit that can move after attacking with more CS/RCS than an Archer would have a solid niche.

Would the archer still have a niche, or would everyone just build chariot archers?

 

[chicorbeef]

Would the archer still have a niche, or would everyone just build chariot archers?

Archer's niches:
-In rough terrain.
-Limited or no horses
-Can be built faster (takes time to connect horses)
-For defense, as garrisons or behind cities
-Behind other units
-To attack cities (Chariots have a penalty vs. Cities)
-UU synergy
-To focus fire
-A map where 2-range is valuable

 

[tu_79]

Hey, if chariots were as strong as skirmishers with the only caveat of stopping in rough terrain, will they still be underpowered? Will they be overpowered? This way chariots can be absolutely dominant in plain terrain, while just convenient in rough. I'm not completely against this approach, but this can introduce another problems.

So, imo, the best approach is removing the halt. Be it as a unit that moves 3 steps, be it with a promotion that takes 3 movement in rough, without completely stopping the unit (it may still shoot if one movement point is available).

 

[chicorbeef]

Hey, if chariots were as strong as skirmishers with the only caveat of stopping in rough terrain, will they still be underpowered? Will they be overpowered? This way chariots can be absolutely dominant in plain terrain, while just convenient in rough. I'm not completely against this approach, but this can introduce another problems.

Yeah, if we did that they would be OP as hell. I want to change them from 7/7 to 7/8 and remove spear vulnerability, I'm confident that's enough. The problem isn't the rough terrain stuff, but rather the fact that Chariots are weaker than Archers even in open terrain in their current form. And with Horsemen in Classical they won't be overshadowed.

 

[tu_79]

Yeah, if we did that they would be OP as hell. I want to change them from 7/7 to 7/8 and remove spear vulnerability, I'm confident that's enough. The problem isn't the rough terrain stuff, but rather the fact that Chariots are weaker than Archers even in open terrain in their current form. And with Horsemen in Classical they won't be overshadowed.

Faster units have to be weaker, they make for it with its extra movement. But chariots are not fully faster units. It's not only that they take more to arrive where they are needed. They also are completely stopped by rough. They cannot hit if they move over a rough tile. And they cannot stand being hit, by design. This makes them almost useless in harsh terrain, no matter how strong they are. Increasing the strength will make them more valuable in flat and still useless elsewhere. Maybe that's fine.

 

[pineappledan]

Chariots are actually awesome in desert. That’s another reason I hate the 3 moves suggestion. Can’t move, shoot, and move again in desert with only 3 moves