1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Going for Gold: Units

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 20, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 3, 2018.
  1. Yes

    73.7%
  2. No

    26.3%
  1. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,356
    Gender:
    Male
    The T4 promotions for the Ranged/Mounted Ranged lines would still be different, though, right? Would the Chariot still have access to T4 Skirmisher promotions even if its Mounted Class was removed? Would that even matter (not many Chariots will get to +100 XP pre-Skirmishers)?

    However, I still feel like removing Spear vulnerability is more than possible even without this (add a 50% penalty to Chariots on Spears, could be justified thematically as being being stronger against the Horses but weaker against the riders).

    I don't know if it's possible to just remove Chariots from the list of units that Spearmen get a bonus against, but that would be the cleanest solution.
     
  2. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,356
    Gender:
    Male
    The issue with this in my mind is that Chariots would be outclassed by Spears pretty badly, and if we buff them too much, we're just making the Chariots into pseudo-Horsemen.
     
  3. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    960
    Location:
    New York

    I just tested with that code, turning off mounted for chariots - no spear bonus and they still have access to the promos. maybe im missing something?
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,783
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Sorry, I'm not being clear - I'm talking about the AI side of things. I could probably rewrite it all, but I'd rather not.

    G
     
  5. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,356
    Gender:
    Male
    But you proposed to change the chariot to melee. Wouldn't that require even more re-writing?
     
  6. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    960
    Location:
    New York
    I wouldnt want you to either. I just tested one more time and confirm AI is able to choose the promos and benefit from them as well though, so everything appears right to me; they can access and use/benefit from the promos. If there is any part of this im missing it would be cool to know =)
     
    chicorbeef likes this.
  7. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    I suggested basically the same thing as this in the other thread. The only difference was that I suggested Skirmisher and Horsemen swap places, with Skirmisher's stats being adjusted appropriately, and costing significantly more Production than Chariots. Chariot promotes to Horseman.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,783
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    No, it'd just be a combatclass swap.

    Maybe I fixed it once upon a time and have since forgotten? I dunno, I wrote that code forever ago. Thanks for testing.

    G
     
    vyyt and chicorbeef like this.
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,029
    For the epic and Marathon players out there...do you actually use the chariot?

    I’m more in line with just dropping the unit. Heck even gives a little memory back to the mod, and I know memory is tight right now
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,783
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Hardly. Trivial.

    G
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,848
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    that can’t be a serious position. Where would that leave Egypt? Or modded civs with chariot replacements?
     
    vyyt, tu_79, chicorbeef and 1 other person like this.
  12. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    851
    Location:
    Poland
    Yeah, no point in removing the unit. Would +1RCS make them OP? If not then there is no reason to not doing it, right? Then reiterate.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,029
    Wouldn’t be the first time we have modified a UU.

    We shouldn’t have things in the mod with little purpose, and shoe horning them in “just because” is not good design.

    I’ve heard the argument that chariots aren’t worthwhile and I agree. But I haven’t seen a good argument to actually keep them other than if epic and marathon players use them. Warfare thst early in the game is bare bones...what do chariots bring that isn’t brought in just a little bit later
     
  14. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,356
    Gender:
    Male
    Moving Horsemen to Classical, there would definitely be a niche for a mobile unit in the Ancient Era. Also revamping Egypt's UU would be more work. And I disagree that Chariots wouldn't be worthwhile, a higher movement unit that can move after attacking with more CS/RCS than an Archer would have a solid niche.
     
    vyyt and CppMaster like this.
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,029
    Would the archer still have a niche, or would everyone just build chariot archers?
     
  16. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,356
    Gender:
    Male
    Archer's niches:
    -In rough terrain.
    -Limited or no horses
    -Can be built faster (takes time to connect horses)
    -For defense, as garrisons or behind cities
    -Behind other units
    -To attack cities (Chariots have a penalty vs. Cities)
    -UU synergy
    -To focus fire
    -A map where 2-range is valuable
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
    vyyt likes this.
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,793
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Hey, if chariots were as strong as skirmishers with the only caveat of stopping in rough terrain, will they still be underpowered? Will they be overpowered? This way chariots can be absolutely dominant in plain terrain, while just convenient in rough. I'm not completely against this approach, but this can introduce another problems.

    So, imo, the best approach is removing the halt. Be it as a unit that moves 3 steps, be it with a promotion that takes 3 movement in rough, without completely stopping the unit (it may still shoot if one movement point is available).
     
  18. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,356
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah, if we did that they would be OP as hell. I want to change them from 7/7 to 7/8 and remove spear vulnerability, I'm confident that's enough. The problem isn't the rough terrain stuff, but rather the fact that Chariots are weaker than Archers even in open terrain in their current form. And with Horsemen in Classical they won't be overshadowed.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,793
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Faster units have to be weaker, they make for it with its extra movement. But chariots are not fully faster units. It's not only that they take more to arrive where they are needed. They also are completely stopped by rough. They cannot hit if they move over a rough tile. And they cannot stand being hit, by design. This makes them almost useless in harsh terrain, no matter how strong they are. Increasing the strength will make them more valuable in flat and still useless elsewhere. Maybe that's fine.
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,848
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Chariots are actually awesome in desert. That’s another reason I hate the 3 moves suggestion. Can’t move, shoot, and move again in desert with only 3 moves
     
    vyyt and Bromar1 like this.

Share This Page