Going for Gold: Units

[Stalker0]

Nice quote attribution

You cannot lead a battle if you think you look silly on a horse -- Napolean

 

[CrabHelmet]

As the great man himself once said,

Don't believe every attribution you see on the internet.

 

[chicorbeef]

Moving it to classical IMO is unnecessary - if you move it to, say, Mathematics, it's a difference of one tech from where it is now. A rushing player will be delayed by 8-10 turns tops. Move it to Iron working and it's game over. No other tech makes sense (need a column between it and Knight) I'm not changing the tech tree layout.

G

My proposal was to switch Masonry/Military Theory. Move Arena to current Military Theory and move Watermill to Engineering.

 

[Gokudo01]

My proposal was to switch Masonry/Military Theory. Move Arena to current Military Theory and move Watermill to Engineering.

And god of fertility is forbidden if you dare settle on river.
I think people who propose to change this or that don t understand every chains of the puzzle.
What about luxuries which are enhanced by arena?
Should we nerf them now that the building is sooner ?
What about the bonus and the building cost on water mill: oh if you didnt realize each column has got a normalize building cost

Etc etc etc

There are tons of new issues which come with any change...
We will have to find à new balance state which takes so long to make horsemen weaker and maybe make chariot more useful and for what ? Realism

You know what I want some realism too
French leader is Napoléon but the unique unit is the musketer .....

 

[chicorbeef]

And god of fertility is forbidden if you dare settle on river.
I think people who propose to change this or that don t understand every chains of the puzzle.
What about luxuries which are enhanced by arena?
Should we nerf them now that the building is sooner ?
What about the bonus and the building cost on water : oh if you didnt realize each column has got a normalize building cost

Etc etc etc
We will have to find a new balance state which take so long to make horsemen weaker and maybe make chariot more useful

Tbh, Goddess of Fertility is already crappy if you're on a river. I already proposed my adjustments for Watermill in the Buildings thread (and yes I know about the cost adjustments) I don't think tuning 2 building a is that hard...if Arenas become OP then drop +1 Culture on Perfume (what was the other luxury) and switch it with +1 Gold, which wouldn't be a drastic change considering we're dropping Culture off most resources anyway.

Changing 2 Buildings is not the hardest thing in the Universe. In fact I already did the change on my game. The world is still fine.

 

[Stalker0]

With G suggesting the -1 CS on Horseman I don't see any further changes needed. That is not a small change, it will weaken drill horseman against cities, weaken them against spears. They will still be a solid unit, but swordsman will ultimately be the stronger combat unit. I think that's good balance, don't see any reason to tip over the tech tree cart now.

 

[chicorbeef]

With G suggesting the -1 CS on Horseman I don't see any further changes needed. That is not a small change, it will weaken drill horseman against cities, weaken them against spears. They will still be a solid unit, but swordsman will ultimately be the stronger combat unit. I think that's good balance, don't see any reason to tip over the tech tree cart now.

But I don't want Swordsman to be the definitively stronger combat unit. I want Swordsman to compete with Horses/Skirmishers.

To the people who think Horsemen will be dead with a classical era move (check the dedicated thread and please actually fully read my proposal, people, because I did lay out a rough plan for what should occur in the Military Theory/ Masonry switch)--- Horsemen are fully capable of competing with Skirmishers/Swordsmen, while Spears/Archers are outclassed by those same units. I want to see Classical units in Classical. Ancient units in Ancient. Just like how Knights/Longswords/Heavy Skirmishers are all relatively balanced by being on the same tech column.

I want to see the Horseman powerful, not nerfed, just powerful when its rightful time in the Sun is.

 

[Gazebo]

But I don't want Swordsman to be the definitively stronger combat unit. I want Swordsman to compete with Horses/Skirmishers.

To the people who think Horsemen will be dead with a classical era move (check the dedicated thread and please actually fully read my proposal, people, because I did lay out a rough plan for what should occur in the Military Theory/ Masonry switch)--- Horsemen are fully capable of competing with Skirmishers/Swordsmen, while Spears/Archers are outclassed by those same units. I want to see Classical units in Classical. Ancient units in Ancient. Just like how Knights/Longswords/Heavy Skirmishers are all relatively balanced by being on the same tech column.

I want to see the Horseman powerful, not nerfed, just powerful when its rightful time in the Sun is.

I'm not going to completely rework the early tech tree to move horsemen to classical.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

I'm not going to completely rework the early tech tree to move horsemen to classical.

G

Move Arenas to Iron Working and Watermills to Mathematics then. Are there too many knock-on effects like that?

 

[ElliotS]

Move Arenas to Iron Working and Watermills to Mathematics then. Are there too many knock-on effects like that?

Dude there's really no need to change anything more than maaaaaybe giving horsemen -1 CS. There's really no reason to shake the boat so hard. (Especially because we haven't even finished the boat promotions yet! )

 

[chicorbeef]

Dude there's really no need to change anything more than maaaaaybe giving horsemen -1 CS. There's really no reason to shake the boat so hard. (Especially because we haven't even finished the boat promotions yet! )

But...I don't see it as changing much. Technically it's very easy to move 2 buildings and a unit, I don't know about the knock-on effects.

Edit: The knock-one effects shouldn't be that severe since I'm moving buildings within the same column.

 

[Gazebo]

But...I don't see it as changing much. Technically it's very easy to move 2 buildings and a unit, I don't know about the knock-on effects.

Edit: The knock-one effects shouldn't be that severe since I'm moving buildings within the same column.

Moving two buildings and UBs would have a knock-on effect on policies, pantheons, civs, warfare, and expansion.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

Moving two buildings and UBs would have a knock-on effect on policies, pantheons, civs, warfare, and expansion.

G

Well yeah, but the question is to what degree?
I'm getting the vibe that you really don't want to do this, at least not now, though. So no changes it is, then?

 

[tu_79]

Well yeah, but the question is to what degree?
I'm getting the vibe that you really don't want to do this, at least not now, though. So no changes it is, then?

They are going to reduce horseman stregth if we ask nicely

 

[Stalker0]

Well yeah, but the question is to what degree?
I'm getting the vibe that you really don't want to do this, at least not now, though. So no changes it is, then?

If this was a simple "just move the horseman to X tech and call it a day", I could get more on board with it. I just don't want to shift other things needlessly. Military theory already has the barracks which is a pretty nice building, not like the tech is worthless without horses. Is there a place the horse could go to that people would be comfortable with....without any other adjustments.

 

[chicorbeef]

If this was a simple "just move the horseman to X tech and call it a day", I could get more on board with it. I just don't want to shift other things needlessly. Military theory already has the barracks which is a pretty nice building, not like the tech is worthless without horses. Is there a place the horse could go to that people would be comfortable with....without any other adjustments.

Well, what tech? I wanted a Masonry flip but that's probably not going to happen. Mathematics then?

I still don't think Watermill to Mathematics nor Arenas to Iron Working are logically bad choices, but G knows about the knock-on effects of that better than I do. All I can do is judge the balance of those two changes from a human point of view, but I don't know anything about the underlying AI logic in their build orders regarding the locations of the buildings.

 

[ColonelCarter]

Tinkered with making chariots melee, unfortunately there's no scripted melee attack for them, so they default to a very slow ranged attack. Not feasible. So, I think we keep things the way they are on that front, perhaps buff them a hair, drop horsemen by 1 CS, and call it a day.


G

Wasn't there a melee chariot unit in the Wonders of the Ancient World scenario? I think some image assets for buildings have been borrowed from scenario stuff so it could be possible. Wouldn't work for Egyptian Chariot archers obviously (unless they retained being ranged as part of their uniqueness).

That being said I think 14 str Horsemen should be fine.

 

[tu_79]

Well, what tech? I wanted a Masonry flip but that's probably not going to happen. Mathematics then?

I still don't think Watermill to Mathematics nor Arenas to Iron Working are logically bad choices, but G knows about the knock-on effects of that better than I do. All I can do is judge the balance of those two changes from a human point of view, but I don't know anything about the underlying AI logic in their build orders regarding the locations of the buildings.

That's why I proposed swapping horseman with catapults. Not touching buildings because too many things are going on with them. The metagame is still the same. Rushing military theory leads to an advanced unit for its time, but catapults cannot be so dominant. They can take capitals, yes, but spearsmen destroy an unprotected catapult with bare hands. There's simply not enough time to build a full army to escort these catapults.

 

[civplayer33]

And I thought this was supposed to to be the CA discussion thread /s

I'm just going to link my response in the other thread.
TL;DR:

• this whole issue is mostly smoke and mirrors and a strength nerf of horsemen is a bad idea since it then becomes too weak in Classical and it is already a late Ancient era unit! (if you wanna rush them that is your business but most games don't go that way)
  
• CA could use a buff, I guess: maybe increase its strength slightly?

 

[CrazyG]

this whole issue is mostly smoke and mirrors and a strength nerf of horsemen is a bad idea since it then becomes too weak in Classical and it is already a late Ancient era unit! (if you wanna rush them that is your business but most games don't go that way)

Most games I unlock horsemen before spearmen. I have no idea what you mean by a late ancient era unit, its available very early and pursuing it early is a powerful and commonly used strategy by human players.