Gold should be more important

[Iceciro]

The problem with the upgrade system is that right now you have to get Great Engineers which require a lot of freaking backflips to do - there has got to be some way to get more GE points. My current game as the Sidar, I just haven't been able to get a GE.

 

[WarKirby]

Getting engineers isn't that hard. Just delay any GP production while you rush construction. Then built an Artisan's Workshop in your best production city, and switch to Pacifism for speed.

That said, I'd still like to see a Blacksmith building at Bronze working which gives an engineer slot.

 

[Iceciro]

There are still fewer engineer slots than other things, they come slightly later on a less important tech, and the first building you need to build them is 1) esoteric in its use and 2) stupidly, stupidly expensive for most races.

And some races don't even get Artisan's workshops...

Compare the usefulness of an Artisan's workshop with a Market, Elder Council, Theatre...

And I tried to delay my Great People point production while I rushed construction, but the AI governor is a ******** monkey and kept putting points into random other specialists.

 

[odalrick]

I think at least some of those issues are intentional. (Although I agree that the AI governor is ********.)

The master buildings are there for builders, who gain the most benefit from +15% production for buildings. And some races don't get Elder Council either. That said, the benefit is tiny and should be raised to 25% or complemented with +2.

I do agree that there needs to be one more engineer building, though I dont think it should be in the metal line. Maybe a Carpenter in the archery/woodworking line.

Or a Scrimshaw hut available at Fishing. +2 and +10% production each for Ivory and Whale.

 

[cypher132]

Yeah, I also think there should be another building that allows you to get more GE points. I tend to get sages or prophets with the lines I go down and barely ever see a merchant or engineer.

 

[Iceciro]

I'm sorry but I fail to see how the Master X buildings are for builders, or designed for builders. They may be in theory but in practice...

The way I see it, there are four possible "builder" victory conditions - in that you can win them with a minimum of warmongering.
Altar of Luonnotar: Not going to be wanting engineers this way except maybe one to rush the final bit - every not GP you get slows you down.
Cultural Victory: Seems way more related to great bards - and way more useful to get them for their massive +12 per turn or +4000 once culture. This line is filled with Bard buildings anyways (drama)
Religious: Hard to get without doing some warring to handle refusal to convert, but I imagine with OB and disciple spam and LOTS of tech-trading for quick religious swaps, you could do it.
Tower of Mastery: You're going to be going up the mage line. The mage line is filled with sage buildings. You don't need Great Engineers for anything beyond rushing the final tower (which, you can also do with 400 slaves trust me on this.)

None of these victories seems to scream Great Engineer. What the GE screams, to me, is the style of "build up and have a big war" builder, not "peaceful building until the end of time." The two buildings that give out GE points are on the Smelting tech and the Construction Tech.
Smelting is notable for being on the way to Iron Working, a "stab that guy" tech. Construction is needed for catapults, making it, to me, a "take that guy's stuff" tech.

I build a lot of actual buildings as compared to troops - Money Changers, Harbors, Granaries, Theatres, and whatnot, and tend to invade with a small stack of highly promoted units I've codled from the ground up. Isn't that what the great engineer Master buildings are supposed to be for?

 

[odalrick]

What the GE screams, to me, is the style of "build up and have a big war" builder

So it a confusion of terms, that's a builder style to me.

Warmongers conquer early, often and care more about the strength of the army than of the units.

"Peaceful building until the end of time" isn't a builder style, it's sandbox mode.

For the record, I consider only two victory conditions:

• Military victory; either by conquering everyone else, or mounting a successful defence while building a tower or altar or something.
• Getting bored and quitting; possibly by builing a tower, altar or something.

The two buildings that give out GE points are on the Smelting tech and the Construction Tech.
Smelting is notable for being on the way to Iron Working, a "stab that guy" tech. Construction is needed for catapults, making it, to me, a "take that guy's stuff" tech.

Construction is not a pure military tech. You can use it for conquest in which case you build a siege workshop and spam Catapults. With no great engineer points.

Or you build an Artisan workshop and (try to) spam buildings. Engineer slots, but no benefit for military production. On the same line is also walls, bridges, aqueducts, marble and Sanitation, great for builders.

Smelting is a military tech, but a few wonders can replace it. Builders tend to get wonders.

I build a lot of actual buildings as compared to troops - Money Changers, Harbors, Granaries, Theatres, and whatnot, and tend to invade with a small stack of highly promoted units I've codled from the ground up. Isn't that what the great engineer Master buildings are supposed to be for?

Yes, it is supposed to be for builders.

 

[WarKirby]

a warmonger style is using lucian to slaughter the first scout you meet, then giving him shock, and conquering another civ's capital on turn 15

 

[Iceciro]

Oh. I always referred to that as rushing, or in more popular parlance, Zerging.
I think it's because I'm the "aggressive" one in my playtest group, actively looking to bash the nearest AIs head in to take their stuff, while the others generally sit back and fight the defensive.

Though I don't look to do it very early, because I find early war to be a snoozefest. Give me Vampires/Valin Phanuel/Catapults/Mages any day.

 

[westamastaflash]

Personally, I think there is a serious lack of Great Merchant power for a long, long time. Merchants are one of the best GP in vanilla (+1 food woot) but with markets and kilmorph, you get 2 of them until you can get money changers up and running. Perhaps the granary & smokehouse give a merchant each?

 

[WarKirby]

When I want merchants, I rush festivals, build markets everywhere, and generally just go with that. Works great.

The Dural get a free merchant slot on their Herbalist too, though. They're an incredible builder civ in many ways

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think Stables should provide a merchant slot, and/or a trade route. Buildings that do nothing but allow certain units to be built are no fun.