Good Elves-No Druids

[Celenduil]

When playing the elves, I always bypass choosing Arendel Phaedra for my leader, regardless of the fact that she is the elven queen, for the simple fact that this means no druids.

It seems odd to me that this is the case, and I wonder if the creation of a civ-specific elf druid, with no alignment restriction (maybe no evil- although having an evil only druid would be pretty cool), would be better.

Honestly, it doesn't make any sense from a story perspective. Playing as one of her lieutenants theoretically doesn't mean she isn't queen anymore, but it does mean I can make druids. With this in mind, obviously it isn't a personal preference of hers not to have them around (from a story-line perspective), otherwise one would think they would be forbidden altogether, so I don't understand the alignment restriction for them in this case.

I think the elves are the only civ for which this occurs, because for all the others, the alignment of the ruler matches that of their lieutenants.

 

[Tarquelne]

When playing the elves, I always bypass choosing Arendel Phaedra for my leader, regardless of the fact that she is the elven queen, for the simple fact that this means no druids.

Wanting to play the Lj. as good elves following the Fellowship AND have druids is the primary reason I made the "Holy Warriors" mod. FoL always gets druids no matter the alignment.

I wonder if the creation of a civ-specific elf druid, with no alignment restriction (maybe no evil- although having an evil only druid would be pretty cool), would be better.

I don't know about "better", but it'd be different and it give good- elves druids.

A Lj. UU that replaces the Paladin and just happens to be a druid should work and IIunderstandC it'd be easy enough to make.

Hmm.... add this to the Lj. section of Assets\Civilizations\Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml

                <Unit>
                    <UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_PALADIN</UnitClassType>
                    <UnitType>UNIT_L_Druid</UnitType>
                </Unit>

Copy the "Druid" section in Assets\Units\CIV4UnitInfos.xml and change
"UNIT_DRUID"
to
"UNIT_L_DRUID"
and
"ALIGNMENT_NEUTRAL"
to
"ALIGNMENT_GOOD"

and I think you'll have the Lj. good druid.

If I've missed something I imagine someone will be along fairly quickly to set it straight.

Honestly, it doesn't make any sense from a story perspective. Playing as one of her lieutenants theoretically doesn't mean she isn't queen anymore, but it does mean I can make druids.

Maybe she really *likes* Paladins. Ahem. All those muscles!

 

[Celenduil]

Maybe she really *likes* Paladins. Ahem. All those muscles!

Lol, well I'd think that would make her not want to send them out to war... hee hee.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I typically just remove the alignment requirement from Druids altogether.

 

[Alzara]

I think that the idea of "neutral" Druids has stemmed from Dungeons and Dragons in general.

In Dungeons and Dragons (3rd Ed), Druids require at least one "neutral" aspect to their alignment. For those of you who aren't aware, D&D uses a duel alignment system. Good-Neutral-Evil and Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic. In D&D, Druids must be, for eg, Lawful Neutral, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Good etc. Basically one aspect of their alignment must be neutral for the purposes of balance (nature's balance and all).

Seeing as FfH has a Good-Neutral-Evil scale only, the idea was probably implemented for Druids using this 1D alignment system.

I personally think it is a good system, though I do see the point that Elves, even if good, should really have the option of creating Druids, if not simply because of their excessive tree-hugging capacity

Al

 

[Celenduil]

I typically just remove the alignment requirement from Druids altogether.

I don't know if that is completely justifiable though, as some of the evil/good civs would probably never associate with druids. Actually, it might make more sense to have them be civ-specific.

The Sheaim, for example, wanting to bring about the end of the world, probably wouldn't have anything resembling a druid in their ranks, lol.

The Bannor probably wouldn't either, as, I believe, their cities are famous for their size and infrastructure, which, I can only assume, came at the expense of nature.

Similar arguments could be made for many of the civs, but the previous two are probably the most obvious.

 

[Ringtailed]

I think any civ that follows FoL should be able to build druids regardless of alignment. It doesn't make sense that nature worshippers can't build disciples that specialize in nature magic. Also, since FoL is a true neutral religion, it seems like following it would make you neutral to some degree. Like, Arendel + FoL = neutral good; Faeryl + FoL = neutral evil. I know FFH doesn't use a 2D alignment system, but... maybe it should

 

[Fenboy]

Dear god, another thread moaning about the unavailability of druids for Arendel/Luchuirp/Os-Gabella/etc...the last one only recently died

 

[thewyrm]

Dear god, another thread moaning about the unavailability of druids for Arendel/Luchuirp/Os-Gabella/etc...the last one only recently died

Doesn't make his point any less valid. Arendel without druids is pretty strange.

 

[Wyrmhero]

I'm in two minds about this.

Doesn't make his point any less valid. Arendel without druids is pretty strange.

Only if you think of the Elves as tree-huggers. Aside from the fact that the Elves build in forests without destroying them, the only connection between druids & elves are that they both like nature in literature. The idea of elves & trees is High-Fantasy. If Arendal is good, who says she wouldn't destroy the ground all around a city because it had AV once there? Druids do not neccessarily mean trees.

And then there's the idea of good/evil in FfH. In my opinion, it is pretty fluid and its all a question of justification. For example, the Sheaim may be seen as evil by others, but they may see themselves as destroying this world to rid it of all evil. Maybe you think that's far-fetched, but nevertheless, it is a valid arguement.

 

[Demus]

this may be a bit farfetched, but how about causing FoL to turn all civs following it to turn neutral? Imho it follows the FoL thematically, and allows them to build druids no matter the civ. The weighting against FoL should be increased though, to compensate for the AI turning neutral even more (is fixed in sto's AO mod though)

 

[Wyrmhero]

this may be a bit farfetched, but how about causing FoL to turn all civs following it to turn neutral? Imho it follows the FoL thematically, and allows them to build druids no matter the civ. The weighting against FoL should be increased though, to compensate for the AI turning neutral even more (is fixed in sto's AO mod though)

I was thinking about this a few games ago. I think this is a good idea, and it would make sense, moreso then having a good civ kill a person because they went into a forest, or than an evil civ protecting nature.

 

[Tarquelne]

I was thinking about this a few games ago. I think this is a good idea, and it would make sense, moreso then having a good civ kill a person because they went into a forest, or than an evil civ protecting nature.

A culture's non-religious norms, prejudices, etc. often seem to have a lot more real influence than the religious ones. No matter how much the culture claims the contrary. Or even thinks it.

People are good at making excuses. Elves may be, too.

The evil Calabim might use nature worship to excuse their treatment of non-vampires as "predation" and simply "part of the cycle of nature." They could admire a tree's longevity, toughness, and ability to cover it's surrounds with a darkness that kills lesser competitors.

Kilmorph worshiping elves might profess to have a deep, abiding and all important connection to nature... which of course must temporarily give way to certain security concerns involving the limited clearing of a few trees that would serve to shelter enemies. Every city defense needs it's killing ground. And it's forge, of course. Lucky we have this dead wood to burn... Can't let it go to waste! After the Sheaim are exterminated then we'll see about replanting. Of course the Amurites are a threat, too....

So I think what really matters is how any given culture (or civ) happens to interpret it's religion. Order worshiping Sheiam might really turn Good, or they might just develop a different vocabulary of justifications for genocide.

A double alignment system might be ideal. There's which "side" you're on, and then there's your civ's actual morality. To some degree that's already reflected in the compassion diplo. modifiers.

Anyway, having FoL not change alignment works perfectly well in some sense, as does having it shift its civs to neutral. Please yourself.

 

[Zechnophobe]

There's another solution. I'm assuming you want Fellowship of the Leaves yes? So what you do is change temporarily to Octopus Overlords, which will make you go from Good -> Neutral, then change to FoL, which won't change your alignment from Neutral.

Tada!

 

[Alzara]

Good solution! A brief run-in with watery gods followed by a change of heart to all things foresty

Al

 

[Mewtarthio]

I don't know if that is completely justifiable though, as some of the evil/good civs would probably never associate with druids. Actually, it might make more sense to have them be civ-specific.

The Sheaim, for example, wanting to bring about the end of the world, probably wouldn't have anything resembling a druid in their ranks, lol.

In order for the Sheiam to get Druids, they must first turn Neutral by adopting either the Runes of Kilmorph or the Empyrean. They must also hold onto their religion until the late game, refusing to convert to the Ashen Veil even after it's become available to them. That alone implies that we're dealing with Sheaim very different from the Sheaim we're familiar with. Lastly, they must research the Commune with Nature tech. The Sheaim are best served by leveraging their Summoner trait to take over the world with their Eaters of Dreams or Profanes. The Profanes are out since we're Neutral, and Commune with Nature is a pretty big detour from the arcane path. So, in short, the Sheaim can build Druids, but only if they make a sizable investment against their very natures.

I think any civ that follows FoL should be able to build druids regardless of alignment. It doesn't make sense that nature worshippers can't build disciples that specialize in nature magic.

As I recall, the Fellowship of Leaves has no universal code that all its followers adhere to. I've heard that Fellowship Calabim will release slaves into the woods, then hunt them down and kill them, calling that a worship of nature. The Druids might be a sect of people who only teach their power to those who demonstrate a great understanding of nature. Good people can worship nature and seek to live in harmony with others, but they are too idealistic, and they interrupt the processes of natural selection with their altruism. Evil people are just too Evil; they may claim to worship nature, but they do not see their own hypocrisy in worshipping gods that oppose the natural order.

this may be a bit farfetched, but how about causing FoL to turn all civs following it to turn neutral? Imho it follows the FoL thematically, and allows them to build druids no matter the civ. The weighting against FoL should be increased though, to compensate for the AI turning neutral even more (is fixed in sto's AO mod though)

I agree. It's so annoying that, occasionally, an Evil civ will turn to the Fellowship of Leaves instead of the Runes of Kilmorph, thereby remaining Evil instead of turning Neutral. Dammit, I want an epic Good-versus-Neutral battle in my games, and you Evil people are just getting in the way!

 

[xienwolf]

Personally I would go Esus instead of OO. Comes later, but randomly beefs up some of your Recon units.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd definitely go Esus instead of OO too.


I'm thinking that in my modmod although Druids be available regardless of your alignment, their actual spells will probably have alignment restrictions. There may be Good and Evil Druid Spells too, in addition to the neutral ones. Or, there may simply be a good and evil version, but Neutral could cast either one.

(Some sorcery and priests spells may have such alignment restrictions too. Religious spells will also require the state religion, but the actual priests will not.)

 

[Blackmantle]

I agree. It's so annoying that, occasionally, an Evil civ will turn to the Fellowship of Leaves instead of the Runes of Kilmorph, thereby remaining Evil instead of turning Neutral. Dammit, I want an epic Good-versus-Neutral battle in my games, and you Evil people are just getting in the way!

Indeed! They are just so horribly... NEUTRAL! Raise the white flag of war!

 

[Ringtailed]

As I recall, the Fellowship of Leaves has no universal code that all its followers adhere to. I've heard that Fellowship Calabim will release slaves into the woods, then hunt them down and kill them, calling that a worship of nature. The Druids might be a sect of people who only teach their power to those who demonstrate a great understanding of nature. Good people can worship nature and seek to live in harmony with others, but they are too idealistic, and they interrupt the processes of natural selection with their altruism. Evil people are just too Evil; they may claim to worship nature, but they do not see their own hypocrisy in worshipping gods that oppose the natural order.

While that mostly makes sense, druids at present are buildable by any neutral civ regardless of religion... yet, simply being neutral doesn't imply any sort of understanding of nature. Am I to believe that Balseraphs following Empyrean or Lanun following OO or Elohim following CoE or any of the other neutral non-FoL combinations demonstrate a better understanding of nature than a good or evil FoL civ does?