Good resources in the boonies?

[Corporal Kindel]

Is there anything that can be done to improve desert, tundra, and ice tiles? I know that tundra can be irrigated if near a river, and a lumbermill can be build on tundra-woods, but otherwise these tiles seem useless to me. It’s been my observation that many times there are a lot of gold and stone locations stuck in the middle of a desert, making city building in these locations kind of cut-off-your-own-arm proposition. So, what’s the best way to take advantage of a good stone location in the early part of the game (when stone helps build several early wonders) without having to plop down a city site in the middle of the desert. I’ve been mostly playing with Elizabeth now (non-cultural), so my culture borders won’t expand in a reasonable amount of time in order to take an early advantage of the stone-in-desert opportunity, and I’m not about to build a city in the middle of the desert with absolutely no growth potential

So, what’s the best strategy to take advantage of these important resources in the middle of nowhere?

 

[Tristan_C]

I'm having this problem too. Right now I'm letting it rest because I know that the competition faces the exact same dilemma. Best thing I can think of for the moment is that if I put a city on a crappy location to grab strategic resources, it's pretty bad on growth regardless of how you improve the city and surrounding land. I made several such cities and cottaged all spaces that i could, so they repay their incursions on research and the Treasury. Cottaging a city on infertile land can really sack its growth, but at least it pays for itself, which is probably more important in the scheme of grabbing strategic resources and keeping a low-cost structure.

I'm still grappling with the concept that it's not Research % you have set that matters, but net Commerce. Having a bunch of cities and 250 commerce but only a 50% Science rate is still better than having 100 commerce and 100% Science. The pop helps the civ score bigtime, too.

 

[Sisiutil]

There are a few things you can try doing:

• Remember that the city tile itself produces 2F 1H 1C, so try to place the city on one of the "unimproveable" tiles rather than one you can actually work.
• Try using dot mapping. Plan out a number of cities that have some tiles within the desert to grab those resources, while most of their tiles are outside to make sure the city can feed itself.
• Do what you can to pop the city's borders. Rather than locating the city in undesireable terrain, locate it so its 3rd or even its 4th border pop will claim the resource in question. (I often do this to claim incense.) Build cultural buildings and run Artist specialists to accelerate the border pops. Build Stonehenge. Build the Sistine Chapel.

 

[yavoon]

I would like to see terrain more balanced. while this isnt realistic, it would make for interesting gameplay. but every civ game I've ever played has centered on food, so its hard to have a balance in a game where food dominates all.

perhaps if they solve the dominance of food they can work on bringing the differing terrains closer. I would certainly like it if tundra cities, even if not strictly as good could atleast be w/in earshot of grasslands.

 

[Paulk]

"An army marches on its stomach."
Napoleon (1769-1821)

 

[yavoon]

"An army marches on its stomach."
Napoleon (1769-1821)

I think this might be some attempt at a clever response to me(not sure). but to which I'd respond that armies dont eat in civ.

 

[Tristan_C]

• Remember that the city tile itself produces 2F 1H 1C, so try to place the city on one of the "unimproveable" tiles rather than one you can actually work.

I'm new to civ4 so I didn't know that. Is that true? I was going on the premises of civ1 that the city's tile should be rich, so its output is put towards the city's growth for its entire lifespan. Can you get 2F 1H 1C on desert? Wow ok. On the other hand you shouldn't build on Ice (improvements take 50% longer to build), right?

• Do what you can to pop the city's borders. Rather than locating the city in undesireable terrain, locate it so its 3rd or even its 4th border pop will claim the resource in question. (I often do this to claim incense.) Build cultural buildings and run Artist specialists to accelerate the border pops. Build Stonehenge. Build the Sistine Chapel.

Well obviously building the stonehenge, the sistine chapel, and other dynamite buildings will blow the problem out of the water, but we were trying to get an economical decision. A cheap settler unit will free up time for your city to work on your other priorities, like hordes of axemen, provided that the settler can found a city that helps pay for itself.

 

[Killroyan]

Yes it is true. It is always best to build on an improvable tile if given the choice between lets say a tundra tile or a plains tile.

Desert tiles can never have an improvement but tundra tiles can have either:
1. Lumbermills on forest tiles
2. Watermiles on river tiles (still very usefull!!)
3. Windmills/mines on hill tiles.
4. Farms on tiles next to a water resource

Ice tiles can only have windmills/mines on hill tiles.

 

[mcrat]

• Remember that the city tile itself produces 2F 1H 1C, so try to place the city on one of the "unimproveable" tiles rather than one you can actually work.

Dude, so simple, and such a good idea. Your posts (and guides) are always so helpful Keep up the good work.

 

[Emerald Melios]

[*]Remember that the city tile itself produces 2F 1H 1C, so try to place the city on one of the "unimproveable" tiles rather than one you can actually work.
[/LIST]

I've noticed sometimes after founding I get a city that produces 2 hammers instead of one on it's core tile (and not always when it's on hills). What causes that?

 

[Killroyan]

If you start on a plains hill you will get a 1 hammer bonus to your city tile. Settling on resources sometimes will net you also an extra hammer or an extra commerce. There are some posts about that, so you can search for it.

 

[Emerald Melios]

If you start on a plains hill you will get a 1 hammer bonus to your city tile. Settling on resources sometimes will net you also an extra hammer or an extra commerce. There are some posts about that, so you can search for it.

Only Plains/Hill (and not Grassland or less hospitable terrain)?

 

[retro V]

Only Plains/Hill?

Only Plains/Hill. Regardless of forests and jungles too.

With regards to the original question, based on early-game decisions, one has to balance the need for resources in poor terrain with the expense of settlers and maintenance. Judge for yourself if that stone or marble or luxury is really worth the effort. If not, let the AI take it and suffer the consequences instead.

 

[bassist2119]

If you start on a plains hill you will get a 1 hammer bonus to your city tile. Settling on resources sometimes will net you also an extra hammer or an extra commerce. There are some posts about that, so you can search for it.

RIGHT! I remember reading the rule regarding this in some other thread; If the unimproved value of either food, prod, or comm exceeds the default value (2F 1P 1C) then the base city square is given that value. This being the case, how come cities built on floodplains don't get an extra food in the base square?

 

[Eqqman]

This being the case, how come cities built on floodplains don't get an extra food in the base square?

It's because founding on a floodplain destroys the floodplain so the base tile is no longer giving 3.

 

[Phrederick]

It's because founding on a floodplain destroys the floodplain so the base tile is no longer giving 3.

To clarify slightly, floodplains are like forests in that they are an overlay, and therefore do not count in the calculation.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

There are a few things you can try doing:

• Remember that the city tile itself produces 2F 1H 1C, so try to place the city on one of the "unimproveable" tiles rather than one you can actually work.
• Try using dot mapping. Plan out a number of cities that have some tiles within the desert to grab those resources, while most of their tiles are outside to make sure the city can feed itself.
• Do what you can to pop the city's borders. Rather than locating the city in undesireable terrain, locate it so its 3rd or even its 4th border pop will claim the resource in question. (I often do this to claim incense.) Build cultural buildings and run Artist specialists to accelerate the border pops. Build Stonehenge. Build the Sistine Chapel.

Very good point about positioning the city itself on an unimprovable tile to increase its output, that's something I never considered.

I noticed in another thread about the dot mapping that one poster suggested looking at all the potential tiles and ignore the green grasslands (since they're a base 2 food), then add the pluses (wheat resources etc) and subtract the minuses plains, hills, mountains, desert, etc to arrive at a net amount of farms needed. That's pretty much how I've been doing things, although having to decide on this vs that resource, or this floodplain vs that gold (on a desert hill) tile makes for some tough decisions.

Well, I was trying to claim the stone early in order to take advantage of the 100% output increase in order to build Stonehenge & Pyramids. It kind of defeats the purpose if I build Stonehenge beforehand in order to expand culture borders & claim the stone location after-the-fact.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think this might be some attempt at a clever response to me(not sure). but to which I'd respond that armies dont eat in civ.

Apparently they eat gold instead (maintenance costs).

It would be interesting to see Civ implement some sort of supply lines concept--such as units' health gradually decreasing if they're in territory with no trade routes back to your civ.

 

[eric_]

Desert tiles can never have an improvement but tundra tiles can have either:
1. Lumbermills on forest tiles
2. Watermiles on river tiles (still very usefull!!)
3. Windmills/mines on hill tiles.
4. Farms on tiles next to a water resource

Ice tiles can only have windmills/mines on hill tiles.

Deserts can have:

1. Plantations on incense tiles
2. Watermills on river tiles
3. Windmills/mines on hill tiles

No?

 

[Sisiutil]

Deserts can have:

1. Plantations on incense tiles
2. Watermills on river tiles
3. Windmills/mines on hill tiles

No?

Obviously, though the river tiles are actually floodplains and you can do a LOT with those. I think the discussion here is around plain, flat, unimproveable desert tiles.