GOTM 06 - Pre Game Discussion

[ButSam]

I'm no expert by any means, but I do think Kublai is poised for domination moreso than any other victory type; the combination of culture and aggressiveness both contribute toward domination directly, as then those newly-captured cities can be put to good use expanding borders soon after they are captured!

I'll go for domination, though this will be my first time to do so. It will be interesting! I'm glad to have another GOTM on a difficulty level that I consider playable!

Sam

 

[The-Hawk]

I think that I will go for a Culture win. Anyone want to join me in the Kublai Khan Kulture Klub? You know, sort of a "sub-competition"?

Pretty hard to picture Kublai Khan as a cultured gentleman. Unfortunately, I went for culture last month, and I'm feeling a need to knock some heads. I think I'll go for conquest... the uncertainty of the map type presents some interesting strategic decisions. For example, do you take a chance that all the AI's are landlocked and go for an all out axe or keshik rush? That is a big risk, if one or two AI's are on another continent, then fast conquest will require early astronomy. As A'AbarachAmadan points out, getting early information about the map will be critical.

 

[mr. Y]

I'll join the KKKK

 

[MikeH]

Pretty hard to picture Kublai Khan as a cultured gentleman.

Oh, I dunno. After all as good old S.T. Coleridge said :-

In Xanadu did Kublai Khan

a stately pleasure-dome decree,

where Alph, the sacred river, ran

through caverns measureless to man

down to a sunless sea,

so twice five miles of fertile ground

with walls and towers were girdled round.

and there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,

where blossom'd many an incense-bearing tree.

And here were forests as ancient as the hills,

enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

 

[DaveMcW]

And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war!

 

[ainwood]

I found keshiks a bit disappointing - especially after a prolonged war against Caesar's praetorians - which resulted in a massacre for my proud keshiks... :thumbdown They would be good for conquering the first 1-2 civs, but probably useless once the AI hooks up bronze/iron.

Even more of a mess against phalanxs... but you can always 'unhook' the bronze / iron, and take some axemen / swordsmen with you.

 

[salty mud]

Looks interesting. I may have a go at this map.

 

[Mrop]

I think I'll give it a go, even with such a large map as Standard. (Fear my below reqs computer!) Noble difficulty may ensure me not getting my butt kicked too hard...

 

[Amitabh]

Even more of a mess against phalanxs... but you can always 'unhook' the bronze / iron, and take some axemen / swordsmen with you.

Indeed! I actually brought a stack of 4 or 5 axemen and moved them to the Roman border along with the keshiks. As I declared my axemen marched straight to the iron source, unhooked it then guarded it for the remainder of the war. It's a decent strategy.

Anyway, in the same game I had my poor keshiks try to take on longbows - talk 'bout suicide run Hopefully my actual GOTM won't see any of that...

 

[Sisiutil]

I haven't tried a GOTM before. I'll have to try this one. Looks very interesting, and challenging, given the immediate lack of resources. A little scouting by both initial units is going to be required.

To my mind, Horse Archers are for pillaging and scouting; Keshiks, with their ability to use their 2 moves over any terrain, are super-pillagers/scouts. Why would you use them to take on anything stronger than an Archer or Warrior? If you primarily use them in that pillaging/scouting capacity, they should be useful for quite some time--in fact, I may be loathe to upgrade them to Knights.

It's been a while since I played as a Creative civ. I'm used to going after Stonehenge for its early border-expanding utility. Kublai doesn't need that, but the propensity to give you an early Great Prophet is appealing--even if I don't found any religions, I'm likely to capture another civ's holy city, and it would be good to put a shrine there.

 

[Amitabh]

To my mind, Horse Archers are for pillaging and scouting; Keshiks, with their ability to use their 2 moves over any terrain, are super-pillagers/scouts. Why would you use them to take on anything stronger than an Archer or Warrior? If you primarily use them in that pillaging/scouting capacity, they should be useful for quite some time--in fact, I may be loathe to upgrade them to Knights.

Well, my idea was to use HA to take out the nearby 2 civs - as soons as they face anything stronger than archers/warriors, as you say, they are pretty much obsolete.

Anyway, just trying to sort out what my strategy will be like for a domination win. HAs will have more use when they can be upgraded to knights. Last GOTM showed how some truly excellent players can pull off a conquest win using only HA, or even chariots

 

[Lmtoops]

Even more of a mess against phalanxs... but you can always 'unhook' the bronze / iron, and take some axemen / swordsmen with you.

I found that giving them Flanking I and II promotion is beneficial. At least they stay alive and can heal.

The main UU ability for Keshik are they can move quickly over enemy territory, but that does not help much against the AI. The deeper you go into enemy territory, the better defended the cities. So the UU ability does not help.

I think the Keshik would be great in MP games. Many players keep their inner cities poorly defended, and they count on hills/forests to slow down the enemy.

 

[hamfist]

Though it's true that Keshiks aren't great against spears and Praetorians, they are very good for getting deep into enemy territory and finding that iron or copper. I tried Kublai Khan early on with the 1.61 patch, and the ability of the Keshik to move unimpeded by terrain helped me find both Hattys and Saladins copper. After that the battle was won by Keshiks. If you get Keshiks before your neighbour gets Copper, you can trounce him quickly.

 

[surt]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/index.php?month=40006
This is mildly confusing:

This game will require you to have installed Patch v1.61.
ENTRIES NOT PLAYED UNDER 1.52 WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED!

I'm pretty sure you meant not played under 1.61 as in the discussion, right?

Maybe I'll be able to win this one. I almost won the last one, but got invaded while building up too much culture in the last few turns of the last game.

 

[Sisiutil]

Well, my idea was to use HA to take out the nearby 2 civs - as soons as they face anything stronger than archers/warriors, as you say, they are pretty much obsolete.

Anyway, just trying to sort out what my strategy will be like for a domination win. HAs will have more use when they can be upgraded to knights. Last GOTM showed how some truly excellent players can pull off a conquest win using only HA, or even chariots

No, my point was that they're not obsolete at that point--they just get relegated to pillaging and scouting rather than direct attacks on the enemy.

I agree with Lmtoops, Flanking is the best promotion for them to increase their survival chances. Spearmen are available pretty early, so Horse Archers and Keshiks alike are vulnerable to them--no different from the vulnerability of Knights to Pikemen. Though I notice the AI doesn't seem to build as many Pikemen as it does Spearmen.

In addition, Keshiks are great for capturing Workers quickly, easily, and effectively. They can then, if needed, escort the Workers back to your territory. There's no point building a lot of workers if you're playing as Mongolia.

If you can get a Keshik to the enemy's copper mine and destroy it, or to Caesar's iron mine and do the same, it's worth it if they bite the dust on the next turn. If they survive, send them out of the fat cross, then have them capture the worker who ventures out to rebuild the mine.

Unlike Praetorians, Redcoats, and Cossacks, Keshiks are not in danger of earning the "overpowered UU" label. But I think they can be used very effectively and for a long time, if used wisely. And can I just say that watching a Keshik race over a forested hill with no movement penalty is darn fun.

 

[Jove]

To the staff:
oops, I downloaded and opened the adventurer class game by mistake. When I saw that extra worker I shut it off before making a move, and dled the contender class game. I hope this doesn't cause any trouble...

 

[Merum]

To the staff:
oops, I downloaded and opened the adventurer class game by mistake. When I saw that extra worker I shut it off before making a move, and dled the contender class game. I hope this doesn't cause any trouble...

lol I just read your post and did exactly the same thing!

What a dumbass I am. I, like Jove, hope it's not a huge deal.

 

[Flek]

<oops double-post somehow>

 

[Flek]

The fact that 3 days after the announcement of GOTM 4 you had 10 pages of discussion and now only 1.5, might be an indication that not everybody is a huge fan of the difficulty level. Or for that matter 17 pages of spoiler for GOTM4 and only 9 for GOTM5. Not meaning any disrespect, but perhaps two GOTM's a month might be a good idea. One for the new players and another for the people playing this game longer than 2 months? Just a suggestion....

In all fairness, it could be because those who are into the idea of an easier GOTM just talk less

Heh.. well it's tempting me into trying my first GOTM anyways.. hope I make it through without being distracted.. wish me luck ^_^

Also dont forget.. with less early AI development, it will probably be harder for those used to higher difficulties (dunno 'cos I'm not one of 'em!). Tech-trading or conquering to expand will both be different I'm guessing, and the challenge is still to get a highest score..


So hmm.. anyway.. settle right where he is, after checking there is a blue circle there is my normal tactic . This ensures you get 2 resources in the fat cross as far as I can tell.
Already got fresh water from the lake, and a single road tile will still open up the river trading option.

I can see what looks like tundra-trees to the south (as someone else also mentioned), so scout north and prepare for barbs unless I can set sentries. Focus on expanding to three, then assess for possible warmongery (and hope I can figure out how to warmonger if I need to!).

As for victory conditions.. I have not set myself one before, so maybe I should this time and see. Thinking of trying for domination, but since I have not tried this type before, who knows.

 

[ZerrorR]

I created few maps on fractal to see what they look like... goody huts were placed in a sort of a grid

x----x----x
|+++++++|
|+++++++|
x+++x+++x
|+++++++|
|+++++++|
x+++x+++x

with a very low deviation... could be used