GOTM 07 First Spoiler - 500 AD

[Alraun]

well, well
seems some people in the staff have read my post for GOTM6, so this time no huts at all

A good thing IMO as huts are way too random. It's always kind of jarring to have an AI offer open borders with you when you're still researching your first tech. Barbarians are at least reasonably controllable.

 

[culdeus]

Yes. Three cheers for no huts. I suspect that lots of people restarted till they got settler huts in the previous GOTMs.

 

[Ozbenno]

Prince is the highest level I'm comfortable with, so I didn't start the game with any pre-conceived notions of victory targets.

I've played a bit with Saladin before and have found the peculiar fact that I've never been able to get Buddhism with him but have never failed to get Hinduism (off the bat). So obviously, that's where I headed. In doing this, I was obviously heading towards culture or diplomacy victory but had in the back of my mind, knock out a couple of civs with axemen and then rule the world with the camel archers!!!

My first two cities were to hook up the gold/gems and stone (I'm guessing this was fairly common). Managed to found Judaism. Two more cities north of stone and east of capital. Capture barbarian cities north of gems and east of stoen, found Christianity and Confusiasm (via Oracle). Found one more city near Japan and that's all the room taken up.

8 cities and 4 religions founded. Culture victory seems sweet from here (although lowest scoring victory so no huge points). Problem: I need one more city (for the 3x3 temple rush). Toko looks good for an axeman rush, so I start a buildup in the north. What does Toko do? Declare war on me (I can bury my axes and catapults in his head with no penalty, SWEET).

I take his city to the immediate north of me easily and sue for peace (with some financial penalties on his side). I now have 9 cities and 4 religions at about 500BC. Easy culture win from here...

You'd think so wouldn't you.....

More to come.

 

[KnightBoat]

First GOTM in any civ, and I'm a reloading junkie so this was going to be hard. I did the same thing most people seem to have done, one east, and beeline to hinduism. Managed to found Judaism and build the Oracle on the way while expanded as fast as I could (still coming off a Civ III style of play). Because of this I have two iron resources in 500AD, which is sweet. At this stage I decided to go for a default (ie space) win, but I'm looking for a bit of lebensraum too. Spain is pretty tempting...

 

[Yushal]

8 cities and 4 religions founded. Problem: I need one more city (for the 3x3 temple rush).

What do you mean? 9 cities obviously, but what is the significance of rushing nine temples? And why 3x3 and not 9?

 

[Jastrow]

One of the most commons approach to cultural is to use the cathedral culture bonus. Since the bonus for catehdral (or equivalent) for the various religions stack, you ideall want one cathedral from EACH religion in EACH of your 3 culture cities. To build each cathedral, you need a minimum of 3 temples, so if you have nine cities, and spread all your religions to all of them, you can get a complete set of cathedrals.

 

[drkodos]

Arabia Circa 500 AD

From the onset, and despite being Philo/Spiritual, I avoided trying to go for an early religion and instead focused on techs to develop the hills and find things for my first-build worker to pursue. I was hoping to get into an early Axe rush, but soon realized that growing through some peaceful expansion seemed to make a bit more sense on this map. I settled Mecca in place to work the hill as a mine for better long term production (I hoped) and to keep the Flood Plains inside the initial city radius (figuring no need to get the wheat or pigs too early if we are working the extra food in the fp's).

Build order in Mecca: Worker/Warrior/Worker/Settler/Warrior/StoneHenge/Warrior/Axemen

Tech Order:
Mining/BW/Meditation/Priesthood/Writing/Code of Laws/Agriculture/Animal Husbandry/Iron Working/Alphabet

Lost our first warrior to multiple lion attacks so we needed to bolster our early defense with some warriors builds. I wanted to steal some workers, but have not had the chance to do so yet.

No goodie huts seen at all.


Once I saw the map revealed from early exploration the distances and open space to expand into, I tried to get a Settler out ASAP. I chopped a 2nd worker, had them chop a settler and pre-chop Stonehenge in Mecca. I founded Medina on the Gold Coast almost due west of Mecca and immediatly started building The Oracle as I was teching Writing and COL. A few decisive chops after discovering COL coupled with a quick snap of the whip gave me the Oracle right after COL gave me Confucim and I got the slingshot to Civil Service for bureacracy civic.

Used my Stonehenge prophet to build the Kong Mio in Medina and made Confuc my state religion. Used the 2nd prophet to merge into Medina instead of discovering a tech since the other civs seemed to be a little ******** in their sciences. Coverting to Confucism seemed to get Izzy a bit upset and she soon sounded the war trumpets. It actually became a quick and very real threat to do damange to our burgeoning Arabian Empire since I had just founded the City of Bagdag near Isabella's borders (to pick up the Iron resource there) and the city was not yet defended! The axes I wanted to use to capture Barbarian cities instead had to stave off Isabella's undermanned (lucky for me) effort. Her entire invasion force consisted of one archer and one Chariot, which were summarilly kicked to the curb.

After ten turns of non-warring war, I got a tech (Masonry) for signing a peace treaty. I can only hope for more wars like this!

I captured 3 (three) Barbarian cities with minimal effort just by waiting for them to hit Pop 2, then using 3 axes (with City Raider) vs the 2 archers in each city.

Currently bee-lining to Guilds and the UU to begin some type of more protracted domination effort. The plan is take out the number two CIV and then work through the lessors. We have a good tech lead, are way behind in army men, but way ahead in Gold by dipping to 0 to fill the treasury coffers to make our Guilds run. I want to take out one civ when I get my Camel Archers, go for another one once I get some Macemen, then chill out until Calvalry. My tech path after Guilds is to aim for Liberalism and if possible grab Nationalism for Calvalry as soon as possible.

Hooked up the iron as soon after discovering IW in hopes of making a Sword rush against someone but peacefull expansion has made more sense up to this point. The only fighting being against barbarians and Isabella's folly.

We are currently building the Hanging Gardens in Mecca for the Pop points and health boost and to start aiming for an Engineering GP Farm. That is why I farmed the Flood Plains instead of cottaging them like I usually would. Going to pump up the population for a Middle Age Great Person bonanza (or at least that is the plan).

Still aiming for a domination victory, but Cultural seems like it could also be a potential option, even though I have not been aiming for it, have never acheived one, and really have no clue how to pull it off.

 

[culdeus]

564 turns to feudalism! Wow, now that's some REX.

;-)

 

[drkodos]

564 turns to feudalism! Wow, now that's some REX.

;-)

hehehe.


Running science at zero for another two turns to bulk up the treasury. I think feudalism is only 5 turns away at 100%, but I leak 26 gold/turn at that rate. Break even at 70% (which means....EXPAND!!) and Feudalism at 14 turns, however I never like going anything other than 100 or 0 percent Science until late, LATE game.

The poor Arabic scientists are rather confused that I either have them working 100 hours overtime or just sitting around playing solitaire.

NOTE: Good call on no/limited goodie huts and having gold in them thar hills to make up for it.

 

[albefranks]

So after my previous wipe i start a new game. this time i was a bit smarter I moved one east and instead of going for the early buddha or hindu religion i opted for farms and mining. then switched to take Judism. So far i have not failed in this combo. I switch back to finish copper.

Future pan is to Then go for Monstary/Priesthood to pop out priest. then i got for animals and monarch. I then beeline to drama for national epic (for military) then guild for camel then civil service. is this a viable plan. This is my first GOTM and it is kicking my butt.

 

[Nares]

I played contender and popped only one hut, in my testgame I popped 5, so probably edited by the staff, and to be honest it's much fairer this way

I think I'd have to agree on the editing thing. Based on my own and what I've read of other players' test games, the sheer amount of room given to expand in, as well as the quality of the surrounding (empty) terrain suggests that the map was (heavily) edited. No offense, but it makes me feel like I missed some sort of intended settling pattern.

How often are these maps edited in this manner? Not that the hut removal isn't good, but the apparent redistribution of resources and AI players does bother me.

 

[Zaldron]

This is my first GotM in any Civ game, so I didn't take screenshots or really write down a lot. I'm going by memory and the replay here, nothing should go past 500AD.

I started out moving my warrior to the hill and saw the wine and wheat. After careful consideration I decided to settle in place because of getting the floodplains immediately, the turn not being lost, and so I could settle the hill three squares right to pick up the wine, wheat, and the fish two squares out in the water. Of course I never did end up settling that city but I still stand by my initial decision.

My initial thoughts were that on a Pangaea a conquest or domination win was most likely so I decided to bypass any early religion and instead aim for Ag, AH, Mining, and BW to give my worker something to do. So it was warrior, warrior, worker, ..., settler, stonehenge in 1600 BC and a CS slingshot from the oracle in 595 BC.

I think I settled too far away. City number 2 (2140BC) was west of the stone/NE of the gems. Number 3 (460 BC) was 3 squares right of that to pick up the corn and tons of grassland river tiles. Number 4 (25 BC), the last that I settled, was NNNNE of number 3 to pick up a few more resources.

JC got the pyramids in 370BC since I wasn't really attempting to pick them up this game.

In retrospect I was far too haphazard in my GP usage given the special trait. I took them as they came and used them as I thought best at the time. I only had about 3 by 500AD.

In 200AD I decided that HC needed to have some cities liberated and began a war. I captured the close city I was aiming for to expand my borders, and the war is continuing. I will probably try to get a tech for peace after taking another city or two.

 

[Ashwind]

All this is from memory and the replay file.

Settled 1E on the plain hills for the resources. Turned out good as it enabled another spot to the west for another city. With so much room to expand, I had 7 cities by 500AD (going from the replay). Built 4 and captured 3. Could have been another captured city but it didn't grow fast enough and it auto-razed.

Tech-wise, I went for agriculture and then animal husbandry, after which I went mining, bronze and iron (for clearing the jungles near my 3rd city). Then pottery, writing and alphabet. Surprisingly, iron appeared in a mined hill near my capital and coupled with bronze, it made my capital really productive. Much much later, another iron would appear on the last hill of my capital as well.

In most games, I tend to try to get Confucianism so I neglected the early religions. Unfortunately this time, the Greeks stole it from me by 3 turns. I end up not having founded any religions by 500AD and decided to not bother and adopt the major religion for my game - Buddhism. Out of the 6 AI civs, 4 of them are Buddhists, with the exception of Spain (Hinduism) and the Greeks (Confucianism), which would ultimately be their downfall.

With regards to Wonders, I didn't get any of the early ones ie Oracle, Stonehenge, Pyramids and I missed out on the Great Lighthouse by 2 turns. I think the first Wonder that I managed to get was the Colossus (with 4 coastal cities, I thought it was a good idea, same as the lighthouse).

At 500AD, I probably had Open Borders with the Incans, English and Romans. Relations are on the positive with them as well as the Japanese (they would sign Open Borders with me eventually). Things are neutral with the Greeks but are downright annoying with the Spanish (though I am more annoyed with the Greeks because they stole Confucianism and the Great Lighthouse from me).

No wars yet. I would have went to war except for the fact that there is too much space to expand to and the nearest AI cities are too far away. But with an axeman or two in every city, I was ready for any sneak attack. The barbarians didn't pose much of a problem (didn't see any axeman, best they had were archers before the area was filled up)

Economy and science would be in the top few if not the first. Had 3 Great Scientists (didn't know which year they came at, could be later than 500AD) and built Academies in major coastal cities. GDP was definitely first among nations.

Overall, the pace was decidedly easy. With so much room to expand and such distance between me and AI civs, I didn't need to rush to grab land. In fact, I saw a total of 5 barbarian cities, all in a ring between me and other civs, of which I captured 3, razed 1 and the Greeks took another. Lots of gold and gems, an abundance of food and some good production sites makes the early game quite easy, except a few missed techs and wonders.

 

[Chieron]

Settled next to the oasis, as I wanted to plant a city on that peninsula (and was daring..) Mecca was still a superior position(sometimes i really hate it that you can only build 2 national wonders in your capital, meh.)
Founded Hinduism.
2110 AD founded medina to grab the Wine/Wheat/Fish/Copper.
got bet to stonehenge by 2 turns grrr..

first expansion ended with Kufah in the North next to the ruins of a Barbarian City HC razed shortly before.
got bet to westgote/visigoth near the dyes by caesar, man that was annoying.

in 575 AD (where the save is from) i was building my first wonder-hanging gardens, GL would follow shortly after and with much bad luck produce too many scientists (I'm not good at managing specialists and the game crippled my economy in the end as it assigned too many thus slowing down growth.)

the green dot on the minimap near english territory is Basra, my iron colony there wasnt iron anywhere near..

sometime before, Alex had declared war on me, and now some axemen are ante Thermopylae (Jewish holy city) they will capture it next turn and end this stupid war. (those far away colonies werent such a good idea afterwards, but i wanted iron (although macemen dont need it) and didnt want to raze the holy city..)

turned out to end as a domination victory in 1885 AD(HC outteched me inbetween so i had to catch up before attacking him-maces vs. rifles isnt pretty) one turn before destroying the romans. Toku stinks, BTW (3 Wars).

Arabia in 575 AD:

 

[Armus79]

Aargh, I just wrote a whole entry about my early history and it wouldn't save!!! Augh!

OK, short, short version:

4000BC Mecca
2860BC Medina, near stone
1720BC Damascus, s. of Medina, by sea
1720BC Stonehenge, Medina
1270BC HArappa, near dye
685BC Judaism
625BC Temple of Solomon (Caesar and Victoria converted)
565BC Pyramids, Mecca (representation)
475BC Baghdad, w. of Medina, copper, gold
215AD G. Lighthouse, Damascus
245AD Najran, Iron SW
290AD H. Gardens, Mecca
~300AD Great Merchant to London ~3000gold
~500AD Kufah, between Mecca and Harappa

Friends at this point: Caesar & Victoria
Primary enemy: Huyana Capac
Other neighbours: Isabella, Tokugawa (weak)
Alex, some trading, not much contact.

Maintaining strong defence bc triggerhappy civs around.

 

[ElWanderer]

In GOTM 6 I caught a nasty case of builderitis and crawled to a spaceship victory in 1952. This time I was determined to do better, though early wonders would combine usefully with the philosophical trait...

I founded on the plains hill. After an initial lull (including building Stonehenge in 2290BC), I started spreading fairly rapidly. My research path stayed away from the early religions, I prioritised getting pottery, bronze working then heading for code of laws. Because of this, when my first great prophet appeared, there wasn't anything I could do with him except attach him to Mecca

Researched code of laws then built the Oracle in 745BC. Grabbed civil service and switched to bureaucracy immediately. I've not tried that before but I can see why it's popular. Mecca is a powerhouse and my other cities are pitiful in comparison (except Baghdad which I'm using to build my army).

I founded Najran very far to the East to grab the iron. The city would have been better placed had Victoria not put Hastings in the way. The sugar resource flipped between our two civs throughout the game. I put a high priority on connecting luxury resources, but pretty much ignored the stone. Once the latter is connected, I should be able to quickly build the hanging gardens, angkor wat etc. in Mecca. Yay, builderitis!

Having skipped the first three religions, I grabbed Confusianism with Code of laws then Christiany and Taoism with great people. This was helped by building the Great Library ub 140AD. I'm three turns from finishing the National Epic at which point Mecca's production rate of great people will be immense. So far I've only built one shrine (Kong Miao) but the others should follow shortly. I intend to Confuse the world and reap the benefits.

Diplomatically, I haven't played too well so far. I should be okay in the East and for once I'm not scared of being surprise-attacked by Caesar. In the West, I seem to be favouring Alexander which can't be a good long-term strategy. Isabella doesn't like me, ripped up some of my gold mines and fishing nets, so I took Cordoba and set off a culture bomb there. I'll let her live for the moment, but she's so weak I should try to finish her off before someone else does. Having to defend my lands by pop-rushing spearmen and galleys will have slowed me down.

I've also captured two barabarian cities in the jungle. There's room for a city or two in between those cities and my core.

Compared to my last pangaea game, where I got trapped at the end of a peninsula, this has been a bit of a breeze. It's a lovely starting location. I didn't find any huts. If they were deliberately removed I salute that decision!

Screenshots from 530AD
Core cities:

Cultural overview:

 

[LordKestrel]

This was my first Prince game, and I did surprisingly well (Adventurer class helped a lot there). At 500AD, I had founded 4/5 religions, with Huayna having founded Buddhism 2 turns before I would've founded it. I moved my settler 1 east, which worked out very well. By 500AD, I had everyone except Huayna converted to Hinduism, so everyone was very happy with me all game. The amount of gold I was making from the shrine was quite impressive, even in 500AD.

The only screenshot I have is from 200AD, which is when Toku finally converted to Hinduism. Huayna didn't fare too well later in this game

edit: I suppose I should mention that the reason I'm not running a religion is for the +5 culture boost for the other religions I founded, 1 of which is that isolated city way off to the west, and I wanted the border expansions for it. Shortly after this screenshot, Rome asked me to become Hindu, which I complied with. That's when I started pumping out missionaries non-stop, and eventually had every city except for Huyana's Hindu.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I really want to comment on the elimination of huts, but, first, in the spirit of this thread . . .

I settled 1E on the plain’s hill because I wanted to produce multiple units quickly in order to find at least one nearby civilization from which to steal a worker and to discover as many huts as possible (and I anticipated many to be available early on an epic map) – brilliant plan, huh?

Eventually, I adjusted to the game and began building Saladin’s empire. Many of the posts on this thread emphasize building wonders, creating numerous great people, and using the Oracle as a slingshot, usually to Civil Service with its macemen and Bureaucracy. I did build the Oracle and used it to get Alphabet early, but my emphasis was on establishing a foundation of productive, wealthy, growing cities. At 5AD I have seven cities populated by 39 citizens. Five I founded and two I captured -- Barcelona from Spain and Gepid (~6NE of Mecca) from the barbarians. (Did anyone else established two coastal cities close together east of Mecca in order to take advantage of the abundance of resources there?) I anticipate capturing Rome in the next few turns and then taking some additional turns to heal, consolidate, grow, and prepare to dominate the world.

Now, about the removal of huts: I support no huts in GOTM’s, as they add a significant luck factor. Luck, however, is not unfair (assuming the probabilities are equal for all players). By eliminating huts in GOTM07, real unfairness was created.

If you chose, as I did, to try to find a maximum number of huts – and I submit that this is certainly a sound, if not an optimal, strategy based on experience and analysis of the game – then you were disadvantaged. (I’ve no doubt that I would have been better off in GOTM07 had I started building workers and settlers as soon as Mecca reached size 2, and anyone who researched hunting first in order to create scouts primarily for hut finding and popping would have been even more significantly and unfairly disadvantaged.) Thus, the unannounced game change almost certainly resulted in some players making bad decisions for good reasons, and that’s unfair, not unlucky.

Any change that alters the game’s strategy should be revealed to the players in advance. What say my fellow fanatics?

 

[drkodos]

Any change that alters the game’s strategy should be revealed to the players in advance. What say my fellow fanatics?

I disagree entirely. The whole point is to "onsight" the situation regardless of what reality is presented. The challenge is to be flexible and to adjust to whatever conditions are present. In this fashion, the players that figure out what is going on and adapt the quickest do the best. This creates the fairest and most even playing field.

I think it is good to have an underlying structural penalty for any players that have a general strategy that they regularly apply. I thought it became apparent very early on that goody hunting was not going to make much sense in this game so I abandoned that line of strategic manuevering.

Not only do I think there is nothing wrong with having a game with limited, or possibly even non-existant or selective resources, but I think it is a better and more consistant way to make comparison between players, styles and choosen strategies.

 

[Cactus Pete]

drkodos:

Your argument is thoughtful -- especially the point regarding flexibility -- and I appreciate the response. Given your comments, I would edit my position to read: "Any change that alters the game’s very early strategy should be revealed to the players in advance." Also, it is unclear whether you understood that I am not against altering the rules to improve the game, only against doing it in a way that generates unfairness -- bad decisions for good reasons.

You did not address the unfairness issue at all. Even if you think a flexible approach to play should be rewarded, don't you, nevertheless, think it unfair should a player research Hunting (as his initial tech) based on his experience that there are many huts on an epic map and then discover that the rules have changed and no huts are available. However flexible he may be and quick to recognize his mistake, those critical early turns researching a low-utility (in a no-hut game) tech can never be fully recovered from. He would be significantly disadvantaged, and not for lack of skill.