GOTM 08 Pre-Game Discussion

[armstrong]

Armstrong, with the caveat that I haven't studied them in any detail, I must say I really like your posts in this thread. I think your approach has great potential for this map type. At the very least, you get bonus points for not following the herd and thinking out of the box!

Thanks Hawk!

I'd say more about the path and such, but, alas, I've already started the game so I should be mum in this thread.

 

[Strobe]

Thanks Conroe, I thought this was the case but didn't want to check it for sure , I edited the original post.

My plan is a bit sub-optimal in a few places but I wanted to avoid anything too extreme and provide an 'easy' guide for players who might have been put off slightly by the CS Slingshot optimal examples and discussions on the thread so far.

One thing that I am finding tricky is the move from epic to normal speed. I never play anything but epic and wars are much more difficult at normal . I found neighbours not too advanced but taking out 2 of them with maceman was difficult due to the amount of time to move units about and across water etc...

I wonder if it is worth going for spaceship this time (something else I never do ). Maybe I will do one more practice game.........

 

[starbolt]

One thing that I am finding tricky is the move from epic to normal speed. I never play anything but epic and wars are much more difficult at normal

lol - I agree. I play almost exclusively at marathon monarch small continent maps these days, so these GOTMs all have their challenges.

 

[culdeus]

Warmongering with normal on pelego is next to impossible to finish conquest in a fast time. Now that the huts are gone conquest times are going to be well into the 1600s I would think if not longer. Diplo, and cultural wins could potentially be as fast as some of the top 5 conquest wins as conq/dom will be tougher this time vs. other GOTMs.

 

[Thrallia]

I am fanatically a builder...no matter what I tell myself before I start a game about being militaristic. So going with the GL and Colossus sounds the best for me.

Anyone got any tips for how to prevent myself from being an extreme builder?(to the point where I always have the smallest military and thus am always declared war on, and only then begin building military and then only until the war is over.)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I am fanatically a builder...no matter what I tell myself before I start a game about being militaristic. So going with the GL and Colossus sounds the best for me.

Anyone got any tips for how to prevent myself from being an extreme builder?(to the point where I always have the smallest military and thus am always declared war on, and only then begin building military and then only until the war is over.)

You could try fairly early on selecting a city that you will develop as a high production, low commerce city, so you mine/farm/workshop/watermill everything you can around it: No cottages. That city will require a forge and barracks (and possibly a library or monastery to expand its cultural borders). Once you've built those, mentally reserve that as your military city: Henceforth you don't permit that city to build anything except military units (or buildings that assist in building military, eg. the heroic epic, and later a factory and West Point).

 

[Gr8scott]

Well to get a feel for how fast you need to be to pick up the early wonders, I did a few test games with the GOTM8 settings.

Here are the completion time for the various wonders based on 9 test games.(all I did was build military

Stonehenge
Early: 2120BC Median: 1120BC Latest: 1000BC (3 times!)

Oracle
Early: 1120BC Median: 950BC Latest: 550BC

Great Lighthouse
Early: 900BC Median: 325BC Latest: 25AD

Pyramids
Early: 725BC Median: 300BC Latest: 25AD

Parthenon
Early: 750BC Median: 100AD Latest: 880AD (twice)

Collossus
Early: 175BC Median: 880AD Latest: 1735AD+ (I got tired of waiting lol)

I didn't track Great Library during all of them, but during the last 5 runs, the earliest it completed was 400AD.

Couple thoughts:
The early completion dates are correlated. If you have a wonder producing civ against you, they tend to create a lot of early wonders. If Stonehenge arrives super early, tighten up your path to the CS slingshot or you might be sorry

In general a very tight path to oracle is almost certain to succeed. You might try to squeeze in the Great Lighthouse before the Oracle, but in general the AIs will build Oracle first, so I would make building the oracle the priority. In only one game did the GLighthouse arrive before the Oracle (635bc vs 550bc) and generally it was much much later.

I haven't started the GOTM yet, but my current plan is something like this:

1. Basic fast oracle CS slingshot starting with fishing. Probably adding AH to the research plan both to hook up the pigs but to also allow an earlier writing/library. Getting the scientist early before it is polluted with other Great People Points I think is worth the oracle delay.

2. After CS is discovered, I plan on focusing on the G. lighthouse (pump out a settler while researching the GL techs).

3. It gets fuzzier here. I would love to snag the pyramids, but military and expansion likely can't be ignored further. In many practice games I get beat to pyramids and have to suffer through with a cash infusion lol.

4. Aside from the pyramids decision, I am generally heading for metal casting and machinery. Forges and the Colossus are nice (although I don't put huge priority on Colossus since it seems to go away quickly).

5. If there are other civs nearby, I have had good success focusing on techs for catapults and macemen. I can usually bring them to bear while still facing archers with perhaps a couple of more modern units.

6. during the military buildup, I like to squeeze in the Great Library.

All of it is subject to conditions, but that is my general plan. I'm still playing around with the mid game a bit before I'll give it a go.

Goodluck all.

GS

 

[WarFalcon]

The problem I encounter with wars on monarch and above is that while you can cripple a nearby civ relatively easy often surrounding enemies leap ahead technologically. Sometimes even the civ you're fighting will leap ahead. I've been forced to stop a war in the past because the enemy leaps ahead to the next best defense unit (like from archers\axemen to longbows) and it suddenly becomes almost impossible to move forward (especially when the war has been going for a while and you've pushed deep into enemy territory away from your productive cities. Its difficult to wait 10+ turns for additional troops to arrive at the scene of battle).

 

[Murky]

The problem I encounter with wars on monarch and above is that while you can cripple a nearby civ relatively easy often surrounding enemies leap ahead technologically. Sometimes even the civ you're fighting will leap ahead. I've been forced to stop a war in the past because the enemy leaps ahead to the next best defense unit (like from archers\axemen to longbows) and it suddenly becomes almost impossible to move forward (especially when the war has been going for a while and you've pushed deep into enemy territory away from your productive cities. Its difficult to wait 10+ turns for additional troops to arrive at the scene of battle).

What has worked for me is to first gain a technical advantage, build or whip lots of strong units, get them in position then go to war. When it comes to war, timing is everything.

 

[werdna]

I am fanatically a builder...no matter what I tell myself before I start a game about being militaristic. So going with the GL and Colossus sounds the best for me.

Anyone got any tips for how to prevent myself from being an extreme builder?(to the point where I always have the smallest military and thus am always declared war on, and only then begin building military and then only until the war is over.)

I used to be like that too, until I started playing "always war" games. I read couple nice game threads by TheRat team (they play a lot of always war games) and started only playing that way.
Start with noble on standard map, as AI will throw a lot of units at you.
Now when I play normal games, I always attack first, and it seems to work great.

 

[nano2]

it seems like everyones going west so ill go east

 

[WarFalcon]

What has worked for me is to first gain a technical advantage, build or whip lots of strong units, get them in position then go to war. When it comes to war, timing is everything.

If you know of a good way to get a technical advantage over a monarch or higher AI let me know. In a game on a small map with one 1 or 2 opponents it wouldn't be a problem, winning is pretty easy, but on a big map with many opponents, worse when they're across an ocean, its impossible for me to gain a technical advantage. Don't get me wrong, its still winnable, but only because the computer is dumb enough to lose against inferior units.

 

[malekithe]

If you know of a good way to get a technical advantage over a monarch or higher AI let me know.

Try a CS slingshot.

 

[Murky]

If you know of a good way to get a technical advantage over a monarch or higher AI let me know. In a game on a small map with one 1 or 2 opponents it wouldn't be a problem, winning is pretty easy, but on a big map with many opponents, worse when they're across an ocean, its impossible for me to gain a technical advantage. Don't get me wrong, its still winnable, but only because the computer is dumb enough to lose against inferior units.

It does get more difficult as you move to higher levels. Try things that boost commerce/science, give you free techs and do some tech trading.

The CS slingshot is a good example of making the most of a free tech. That is matter of timing the Oracle's completion with researching Code of Laws.

In a game with a lot of sea tiles, the Collossus is a nice early boost. The Great Library gives 2 free scientist. If you have the Pyramids you can use Representation to get another science boost. Great Leaders can be used for learning a new technology or as a super-specialist that boost science.

Where I need to improve myself is with tech trading. I'm always leary of trading techs to the AI but sometimes it can jet you forward.

 

[WarFalcon]

CS slingshot can only do so much and its not always possible to pull it off at higher levels. Trading techs can keep you from getting smoked, but that won't get you technical superiority, just parity at best.

 

[malekithe]

CS slingshot can only do so much and its not always possible to pull it off at higher levels.

A CS slingshot can be leveraged into a dominating military lead. Your rampaging macemen won't be stopped until your opponents get to feudalism. Even then, add in a few catapults, and you're still good to go. At monarch, it is almost always possible. At emperor, it is frequently possible. Above that, well, good luck...

Trading techs can keep you from getting smoked, but that won't get you technical superiority, just parity at best.

If you select your research properly, tech trading allows you to focus on attaining a tech lead without exploring the breadth of the tech tree. Does it really matter if you ignore Literature, Drama, Calendar, and Currency on your way to Machinery? Nope, because you just got a tech lead that you can leverage into military superiority. When you need Calendar, you can usually find someone to trade it from.

It is very possible on Emperor to get to Liberalism while the next closest civ has yet to research civil service or paper. That can be leveraged into a Cavalry vs. Longbow mismatch (or even, sometimes, cavalry vs. archers).

 

[WarFalcon]

I have a hard time doing it on Emperor If I have a really excellent starting location, but if its just average I'm out of luck.

 

[exitpoll]

Acquiring a research advantage over the AI is possible on monarch with fairly simple means:

1. Pursue libraries aggressively (for scientist specialists) early on.

2. Another trick, which I think is commonly overlooked, is beelining for alphabet and building science in a few cities. In the early game, the extra 4-5 beakers/turn this provides means a lot.

Naturally, trading techs is pivotal in keeping up with the AI.

On emperor it gets harder, especially in the early game, where the AI has a huge expansion advantage compared to you. Generally you have to war early on emperor in order to secure enough land and ressources to compete tech-wise.

Hope this helped a bit.

 

[Yushal]

Pity there's no civ to represent Australia

Mansa Musa seems to fit the bill pretty well.... It is Ancient Era after all

 

[Thrallia]

Mansa Musa is for Mali, which I believe is in Africa....doesn't really fit for Australia then.