GOTM 08 Pre-Game Discussion

starbolt · Jun 30, 2006

godotnut said:
Not if you're using your capital to spawn settlers and workers. Then those pigs will be very useful indeed.

I think not working the pigs early would be a mistake. Your first settler will arrive WAY faster with Pigs, as will the rest. And if there is no copper around, you may indeed want to know where the horses are for early defense.

This is simply map-dependent. In an archipelago map, water is your defense and scouts and workers (fog-busting) are adequate defense. Where are the extra settles and workers going?

In a standard game you're right. I don't think you're making the adjustment to the game parameters. If we've got a large island to work with, a more standard approach has better merits.

starbolt · Jun 30, 2006

cas said:
You don't lose 10 turns at reduced commerce (assuming you mean working the gold mine) with both fish and pigs pumping out food

Your population is reduced (as food is effectively converted to hammers). This means you don't get to your maximum population as quickly. This is costing you 'x' commerce in perpetuity (well, until you max population).

Your happiness limit is reduced when you whip which limits your population limit since unhappy people don't produce. This means your commerce is reduced for the duration. This is costing you 20 commerce every time you whip (2 commerce per coastal tile x 10 turns).

Again, what are you producing that isn't slowing down your growth and subsequent commerce/research. Hammers really isn't a problem for this city...

---

I want to reiterate that I don't think the fastest CS slingshot is going to be the winner. I was simply responding constructively to the folks that do.

Murky · Jun 30, 2006

starbolt said:
This is simply map-dependent. In an archipelago map, water is your defense and scouts and workers (fog-busting) are adequate defense. Where are the extra settles and workers going?

In a standard game you're right. I don't think you're making the adjustment to the game parameters. If we've got a large island to work with, a more standard approach has better merits.

In my test games the islands are thin but sprawling in every direction like tentacles with a few fat parts here an there. There were barbarians coming in from every direction early in the game.

I suppose you could do fog-busting with a bunch of scouts and workers. My method was to rush to hook up copper so that I would have axemen for dealing with the barbarians.

Stormreaver · Jun 30, 2006

I think me going CS Slingshot is certain unless something really big comes up (a close neighbour on a very tight island and/or Copper somewhere really near).

However, the benefit of settlers and other post-Library (for me) production depends on hidden variables, that will be known some 10-20 turns into the game. A 2500BC pre-BW spoiler thread?

godotnut · Jun 30, 2006

Where are the extra settlers and workers going?

To work and settle, silly.

armstrong · Jun 30, 2006

Okay, I tried another run at the Oracle for Metalcasting & early forge, followed by Great Lighthouse & Colossus. I managed to get a worker, 2 settlers, 2 workboats (one for fish and one for scouting), and 2 warriors built in the capital also.

Relevant dates:

2240 BC - First settler built (could have definitely been sped up, I grew to max size first while building workboats & warriors)
1880 BC - Oracle built, Metalcasting taken
1720 BC - Second settler built
1040 BC - Great Lighthouse built
925 BC - First great person born (either Prophet, Engineer, or Merchant)
775 BC - Colossus built

I went for Fishing->AH, hooking up the gold earlier. I don't know if that was wise. I got Bronzeworking early because you need it to mine the hills (they're all forested.)

One of the things about getting an early forge is that it lets you run an Engineer specialist (food is plentiful.) I forgot to look at the numbers, but even a 20% chance of an engineer in the year 925 BC is great - free Pyramids

It probably would be possible to run one early than I did. Code of Laws was coming in at 600 BC, which has a good shot at founding Confucianism.

Edit: I just realized, if you hire an engineer as soon as you build a forge after getting the Oracle, you have almost a 50% chance of a GE for free Pyramids!

The next GP was coming in around 300 BC. If it's a merchant, it could discover Civil Service at the point assuming I went ahead and researched Monarchy after CoL.

Note that I didn't actually settle any more cities, so that slowed my research down (Great Lighthouse + 2 cities = minimum of 8 extra commerce from not having any settled at all, minus upkeep costs.)

Here's a look at the (abridged) spoiler log if anyone is curious or has some advice for improvements... I'm still not settled on the tech path, how much to grow, etc.

Spoiler autolog :

Cactus Pete · Jun 30, 2006

Thanks, MURKY.

starbolt · Jun 30, 2006

DaviddesJ said:
What I said is completely true. There are only two ways to connect a resource to a city: (1) by road, (2) by river. If the road or river reaches the coast, you can then connect along the coast, but you have to have the road or river to connect the resource itself.

Once a resource is connected to a city, you can connect that city to other cities through any combination of roads, rivers, coast tiles (with Sailing), ocean tiles (with Astronomy).

This appears to be entirely correct.

What I felt was missing from the earlier comment was that cities can be connected by their developed coastal resources [provided that the resource is then roaded to a city which need not be itself coastal].

So Wheel does appear to be necessary for hooking up the gold.

starbolt · Jun 30, 2006

godotnut said:
To work and settle, silly.

On your island? And if it's too small? Many people are going to move 1W and we may find ourselves on an island with few settling options.

You're going to need boats, my friend. A settler farm will do you little good until you establish a navy [of galleys]. I think pigs are a luxury on this map (and horses inconsequential) ... at least until you research the basics of expanding your empire overseas. Once you hit a flashpoint (CoL-CS, Colossus/GL, or whatever),the pigs will support all kinds of strategies.

starbolt · Jun 30, 2006

Murky said:
In my test games the islands are thin but sprawling in every direction like tentacles with a few fat parts here an there. There were barbarians coming in from every direction early in the game.

I suppose you could do fog-busting with a bunch of scouts and workers. My method was to rush to hook up copper so that I would have axemen for dealing with the barbarians.

Sure. Often you can accomplish the same task with a pair of warriors or an archer on a forested hill. Especially if you can pick up animal/barb promotions.

You absolutely need BW at some point but I think it can wait until after CS.

godotnut · Jun 30, 2006

I hear ya Starbolt. But my experience is that with the low sea level, there is usually plenty of land to settle, almost like a continents map at regular sea level (but with lankier landmasses).

But if the island is as small as you suggest, then that will be apparent very quickly and naturally I would adjust strategies.

BTW, anyone know what the usual routine is with posting the start saves? Do they usually appear on the afternoon of the 1st? Later? Earlier?

starbolt · Jun 30, 2006

BLubmuz said:
I did ... and it does NOT work, you NEED a road, so sailing can be skipped and we'll loose GLight.
Btw I loose Pyramids, too and I've put stone near my 2nd city.
Land grabbing could be a problem, too if we are NOT isolated
We have to choose, we're on Monarch now.

Yeah. I recant my earlier theory on Sailing. I'd still like to figure out why it appears to work in other games, but I probably met some other connecting condition without realizing it.

FWIW - in the sample game I played to test this (using the screenshot save), even with my sailing blunder and playing nonchalantly, I founded all the early wonders (Oracle, GL, Pyramids, HG for shits and grins) except for Great Library and I founded Confucianism and Theology with GP). I'm pumping out double promoted LB in 500 AD from my single city hellbent on taking the island. Guilds in about 20 turns... just need to capture horses from somebody...

The AI is going to struggle with defense due to the emphasis on navy. The lack of land-based movement, mounted units and engineering+roads, reduce it's ability to shift troops and respond to threats/sneak attacks. A lot of you are in for a completely different game if you've never played archipelago before.

Lastly, I play Monarch and I've struggled at Emperor. You still have a little wiggle room on Monarch

I wouldn't count on all 3 wonders, but industrious is very strong so it's not beyond reason you could get it with careful diplomacy and a good dose of luck.

starbolt · Jun 30, 2006

godotnut said:
I hear ya Starbolt. But my experience is that with the low sea level, there is usually plenty of land to settle, almost like a continents map at regular sea level (but with lankier landmasses).

You might be right about the low sea level. One of the things I found in my early Civ IV days is that often you settle a square but the resources you're using are on the island right across the channel. I wish I'd explored the trade route stuff then more

DaviddesJ · Jun 30, 2006

armstrong said:
Edit: I just realized, if you hire an engineer as soon as you build a forge after getting the Oracle, you have almost a 50% chance of a GE for free Pyramids!

I have to agree, this sounds pretty neat.

Any thoughts on how much harder this line will be at Challenger level, if that means no technologies at start?

DynamicSpirit · Jul 1, 2006

It doth be the evening of the 30th day of June in the year of our Lord 2006, which meanest that the 8th GOTM dost approach with rapid speed.

In this hour of great anticipation it behoves us all to remember the eleventh commandment: Thou shalt enthusiastically download the GOTM as soon as it be ready, and thou shalt immediately play it, no matter what the hour be in thine own timezone. For thou shalt have a whole month in which to regret that thanks to thine impatience and thine having played when thou should've been asleep in bed, thou played a crap game and lost.

Grogs · Jul 1, 2006

DynamicSpirit said:
In this hour of great anticipation it behoves us all to remember the eleventh commandment: Thou shalt enthusiastically download the GOTM as soon as it be ready, and thou shalt immediately play it, no matter what the hour be in thine own timezone. For thou shalt have a whole month in which to regret that thanks to thine impatience and thine having played when thou should've been asleep in bed, thou played a crap game and lost.

That describes me to a tee.

Mutineer · Jul 1, 2006

Heh, it is monarch dificulty, may be I joing this time in order to submit conquest loss at 2000BC

namliaM · Jul 1, 2006

Accoording to Central European time it is just about 8am July 1st.... Where is my save :cry:

Midnight must have passed all over the globe by now?

:joke:

Offcourse... But heck... After the SGOTM I just wanna try on Monarch...

kthcurtis · Jul 1, 2006

Atlanta, Ga. 2:30 a.m.
Just waiting on my next beating...
...with anticipation
...and a sense of doom as I am a landlubber

OMG,
The new phone books are here!
The new phone books are here!

ainwood · Jul 1, 2006

They're released now.

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