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Gotm 113 (E3FT)

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Ali Ardavan, Jul 15, 2010.

  1. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Game of the Month 113: August 2010


    Game Settings:
    Civilization: Mongols
    Map: Large Earth map; 7 civ's, round
    Difficulty: Emperor
    Barbarians: Villages only
    Restarts: On
    Extra rules: Look at the extra rules mentioned in the 2nd post of this thread
    Victory by researching 3 future techs in 1 turn


    Extra rules: Look at the extra rules mentioned in the GOTM 113 (E3FT) thread



    Starting Techs:
    ~ Bronze Working
    ~ Horseback Riding



    This month is a special game. The goal of this GOTM is to be the first who achieves 3 Future techs in a single turn. The final save you turn in must be at the "End Turn" stage and after hitting return three FTs should be discovered before the opening sequence is done. For this GOTM are special rules. You can find them in the GOTM 113 (E3FT) thread. Good luck and have fun.

    Games will be due on October 3th, 2010.


    Please be sure to follow the submission guidelines when submitting your game (please do not send your files in a .zip file. Attach them directly to your e-mail with your name in the save file).


    Please sent the savegames only to civ2gotm@gmail.com.

    Have fun.

    Starting save is here

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2017
  2. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    I don't see any problems with this. Since this style of play is new to me, I have a couple of questions.

    1) Does the science screen tell you when you are going to get 2 adv per turn ? If so, can it be trusted ?

    2) When playing Purple, and Supreme, you are your own key civ; does this mean tech-gifting is irrelevant to your science costs [it would only affect AI research] ?

    3) Is this the 10th Anniv game ? (I thought that was coming later this year)
     
  3. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Try to anwer your questions:

    1) No it doesn't. I guess you have to find out how much beakers you produce (with F5) and use the T-S-L sliders (science at zero) to find out how much beakers are needed for the next tech. When the science slider is set at 50% and it tells you achieve 1 tech a turn you might be able to research FT 1, 2 and 3 when the slider is set at 100%.

    2) Yes.

    3) This game will end around the 10th anniv. I had indeed planned this game a bit later but changed my mind and switched this game with the game Ali has mentioned in the future GOTM games (more details will folow in a couple of weeks).

    I have a question too:
    should we allow to reload to find out if the player has achieved 3 future techs (the player thinks he is able to achieve 3 future techs, saves his/her game and end the turn....founds out he got 2 of the 3 future techs....can reload the last save and continue to build more cities/city improvements).

    I have no problem with this myself but want to know how other players think about it.
     
  4. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Thanks for the answers. About reloading - I might agree, but where do you draw the line between "thinks he is able to achieve 3 future techs" and "hopes he is able to achieve 3 future techs" ? I guess this could be abused and maybe done several times. If people want to allow it, I suggest allowing it at most ONCE per game.
     
  5. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    An other option might be submitting the game and let me look if the goal is achieved..of course somebody else should check my game. If the goal isn't achieved I let the player know and they can continue their game.
     
  6. Merlin_Pilgrim

    Merlin_Pilgrim Chieftain

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    In my opinion, this should not be allowed, because to achieve 3 Future Techs is just about planning and calculating. There are loads of possibilities to calculate, how many beakers you need for the next tech (in this case, the next 3 techs). You just have to add all of your science and you will get there. Just be sure, your SSC does not trigger a tech on its own as the rest of the science in that city will be wasted.

    How I think, the techs will be gained:
    1. trade to a science maximum. The latest founded city has to trigger the first tech.
    2. the next tech should be researched with 2/3 of your cities
    3. the last tech should be researched with SSC and the rest of your cities. To get the best deal I think one should not make the captial the SSC.

    Of course there are different ways to achieve the goal. One even might be to gift all techs to every AI some turns before you want to finish, so that the AI researches one future tech. In your last turn you "hope" on contact to an AI which has allready researched one tech and trade that one. But as far as I know this game, this is a lucky thing and will not work in every case.

    Regarding this:
    "When the science slider is set at 50% and it tells you achieve 1 tech a turn you might be able to research FT 1, 2 and 3 when the slider is set at 100%."
    - No, I don't think, this works properly as you might have some specialists - they are not affected by the science slider, which means, you have 50% science plus the specialists on the first half and only 50% science on the second half. Of course it works out, if you do not use specialists. But I think that would be a waste of turns building cities.
     
  7. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    While I am playing the game, I am going to reach a point where I think I can get the 3 discoveries. I am not going to just reach this point, save and submit. I am actually going to hit the end of turn and see if I actually make the 3 discoveries. If I hit the end of turn and I don't make it, I will have to try again the next turn (with FT3, FT4 and FT5, or whatever FT they are up to). I think reloading to try adjusting my science would violate the long standing tradition of not allowing reloads.

    Of course, this begs the question, "Do you think it is possible for a player to make his save, hit end of turn and achieve the 3 discoveries, but when the saved game is reviewed later (by the moderator(?)) that some random event could result in not actually getting the 3 discoveries?" The end of turn does not always play out the same way. Could something, like a sneak attack by the AI cause the loss of a city or two which would lower the science output just enough to delay the third discovery? What would happen in this situation?
     
  8. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    Does it have to be FT? Obviously we are not talking about tech trading. While tech trading can be done in between turns, you can refuse. What if the city "roster" is capable of doing 3 tech per turn before the FT are mandetory.

    Also no space ship? Especially if you have to get 3 FT's. Are we supposed to keep the AI from ending the game? I think it would be easier to guard against sneak attacks than trying to stop a space ship from landing.
     
  9. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Since I came up with the idea of this game I have taken it upon myself to make the rules. I have answered all the questions asked so far below even though many were already addressed by others. By doing this all the clarifications will be in one place.

    Merlin_pilgrim has addressed this completely:
    When the science slider is set at 50% and it tells you achieve 1 tech a turn you might be able to research two when the slider is set at 100%. However, this does not work properly because of scientists who are not affected by the science slider, which means, you have 50% science plus the specialists on the first half and only 50% science on the second half.
    As the "Notes" section of the game description points out, and as others have commented, this is correct.

    Reloads are not allowed. As haleewud suggested the remedy is to try again the next turn. That is why the requirement is for 3 FTs not just FTs 1-3.

    While the tech cost formula is known and relatively simple, there are three events not controlled by the player which can ruin the most accurate plan:
    1. A city of yours is attacked and drops in size.
    2. A rival city who is a big trading partner is attacked; significantly lowering the value of your trade routes to that city.
    3. Global warming happens.

    Again, you have to try again for the next round of future techs.

    This is a very good question and a real possibility. There is an element of randomness in whether a city withstands an attack or not. However, given that the odds of something like this happening are small, here is my suggested remedy: If a player claims that 3 FTs are achieved and the moderator cannot reproduce it, the moderator shall try again up to 5 times. If during any of the 5 tries, the game succeeds as advertised then it is accepted. If not, the player shall be notified to make a second attempt.

    Yes, it has to be FTs. Otherwise you can achieve it by shutting down science early on till you build a large enough empire. It does not take much effort to get 3 early techs in a row when the tech cost is below 100 beakers.

    Very good question. Yes, just like any other game you need to prevent the AI from beating you. You can prevent them from landing a space ship in any way that is legal in the game: taking their capital, refusing to trade higher level techs with them, inciting other rivals to attack them, ...

    As for your own space ship, there are no rules against building one. Given how this game is scored though it would be a waste of effort.
     
  10. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    That's ok with me. After receiving the game I will check if the 3 FT are achieved (max 5 attempts) and send a message to the player to let them know if the goal is achieved or not.
     
  11. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    I am glad that you are taking charge of the rules. But I guess Magic has given you the authority to do so. ;)

    My original question was whether the F6 screen can display some message such as "2 advances every 1 turn" and Magic said no. Merlin says that the F6 screen cannot be used (even with the 50% trick) to calculate when you are ready to win, and I agree. Maybe someone should explain exactly how you CAN calculate this. AFAIK you need to know 2 things:

    1) Tech costs (in beakers) for each of your next 3 advances. AFAIK you can find the cost of the next tech by retiring all scientists and setting Science Bar = 0 on the TLS screen. I don't know how to find the other 2 costs easily, though I think there is a formula for it somewhere.

    2) Incoming beakers: 2a) from vans, and 2b) from cities. AFAIK 2a = total of trade bonuses in that turn, and 2b can be found on the F5 screen.

    Tech costs normally increase immediately after each advance (assuming one per turn). I am not sure if this happens [during the early part of a turn] when you get multiple techs per turn. Anyone ?
     
  12. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    That part I also don't know. I guess the number of beakers will be close together. But how to calculate the next I also don't know.
     
  13. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    It happens immediately. This is easily tested. Build enough cities at the beginning of the game so that you have enough science to research the first two techs at 12 science each, but not at an increased cost for the second tech. If both techs will cost the same, then you will research 2 techs that turn; if, however, the second tech costs more, you will only research one of them. My test had the latter result.

    The easiest way to find out your tech cost will probably be to count the number of techs you have discovered and multiply by 32. Since you are the purple civ, (and will be supreme by that time) you won't have to worry about the key civ. (at least if you start with no techs; I don't know if the result will hold if you start with extra techs)

    I'm not promising that I'll play this one, but I should have the time to do so if I choose. I do have a question, though: you disallow large food deficits, in order to stop players from making 16 scientists in every city at the end of the game, where the city wouldn't be able to support them permanently. What about setting the science rate to 100% if the civilization will descend into mass disorder without more luxuries? Are you going to make a rule saying that the attitude advisor can't have any city names in red on the turn before the three techs are discovered?
     
  14. Merlin_Pilgrim

    Merlin_Pilgrim Chieftain

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    Hmmm, I thougt, you knew about tech cost calculating. Samson found out and explained quite nicely. As I suppose we are not allowed to post links to other homepages, I quote from the apolyton Homepage. This is, what Samson found out:

    The Key Civ discovery allowed me to run some controlled tests on the numbers of beakers required for researching new technology. I think I understand how the cost is calcuated now.
    Some of this stuff is already known, but I will repeat it here just to have the whole mechanism described in one place.

    The cost of researching a new technology (the beaker count) is the product of two factors.
    The first is the Tech Number which you are researching. This is the number of Acquired Techs you have +1. Acquired Techs are all techs you have received in gameplay from research, huts, trades, gifts, or steals.
    It does not include your starting techs.

    The second factor is a Base Tech Multiplier to which either a bonus or penalty can be added. The formula would look like this:

    Cost of Research = TechNumber X (Base + Penalty/Bonus)

    The Penalty/Bonus is based on how far ahead or behind your research is compared to your current Key Civ. That relationship is quantified by comparing your TechNumber to your Key Civ's TechNumber. If you are the same you receive the Base Tech Multiplier with no Penalty or Bonus.

    If you on a lower TechNumber than your Key Civ, then you receive the Bonus.
    The Bonus is the same no matter how far behind you are. On a medium map it is either a -1 or -2 depending on the TechNumber (see chart below).

    If your TechNumber is higher than your Key Civ's, you are penalized a +1 to the Base Tech Multiplier for every 3 techs which you are ahead of him. In other words, if you are even or ahead by one or two, your penalty is 0. If you are ahead by 3,4, or 5 techs then your penalty is +1.
    Thus, the higher the TechNumber which you are researching the farther ahead it is possible to be. If your Key Civ is stuck in the Bronze Age while you are researching Space Flight, you will be paying an enormous penalty in beaker costs.

    Here is a chart of TechNumbers, Base Multipliers, and Bonuses for the first 20 techs.

    Tech# Base Bonus

    01 10 0
    02 11 -2
    03 11 -1
    04 12 -2
    05 12 -1
    06 12 -1
    07 12 0
    08 13 -1
    09 13 -1
    10 14 -2
    11 14 -2
    12 15 -2
    13 15 -2
    14 15 -1
    15 15 -1
    16 16 -1
    17 16 -1
    18 17 -2
    19 17 -2
    20 26 -2

    All TechNumbers above 20 have a Base of 26 and a Bonus of -2.
    The Minimum Beaker Cost for a given TechNumber can be calculated from this chart
    and that Minimum can be achieved in gameplay by lowering your TechNumber relative to your Key Civ through tech-gifting.

    One important consequence of the fact that the Penalty/Bonus is based on TechNumber, rather than total techs, is that Starting Techs are critical in determining how much you will pay for research in a game. If you have fewer Starting Techs than
    your Key Civ, then you can only get the Bonus when that Key Civ actually is ahead of you in researching. You can never reach the Bonus through tech-gifting alone.

    On the other hand, if you have more Starting Techs than your Key Civ, you can easily get the Bonus without even giving away all of your techs. Starting Techs are an enormous advantage not just at the start, but throughout the whole game as they determine your ability to reduce your science cost.

    If you start with NO techs, and the other civs all have them, you may be paying research penalties the entire game, even with aggressive tech-gifting.

    samson


    Well, as we are purple, we are our own keyciv, so no penalty will occure. The bonuses might be interesting in the beginning of the game when we are not supreme.

    To Peaster:
    There is another way of calculating your costs for the next advance:
    Temporarily set the science slider all the way to zero per cent in the Tax Rate Menu. The number of turns displayed for “Discoveries:” will be the same as the number of beakers needed. To avoid an inaccurate reading, make sure none of the specialists in any of your cities are being used as scientists when checking a tech cost this way. Any scientists should be taken off duty temporarily, before the Tax Menu method is used to get beaker amounts.
    This is given to us by solo - also on apolyton.

    But as you only can calculate 1 discovery with this method you have to combine it with solos method - wich is obvious. The samson-formula is: ((TechNo * 26) + 26 +26)*3
    The combination-formula is: (beakercost next discovery + 26 + 26)*3

    Regards

    Merlin_Pilgrim

    P.S.: If I calculated the costs correcly, we will need round about a total of 7020 beakers for the FT1, FT2, and FT3. (It depends of course on the number of techs you are researching - you not necessarily need all of the techs to get to FT - especially as we are playing a scenario which means free choice of techs).
    P.P.S.: By the way - tech gifting might be important anyway. Samsons formula says that it is important how many techs you have discovered (press F6 to find out), not the total tech numbers which are researched in the game. This means: If you can predict (I can not :-( ) which tech the AI is going to research next, you can techgift it to research techs for you, you need, without researching all the way to these techs (e.g. if you can get the AI to research Conscription for you, without yourself researching Mon, Feudalism, ... this will reduce your tech costs quite enourmously).
     
  15. Merlin_Pilgrim

    Merlin_Pilgrim Chieftain

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    Hello Ali,
    I got a question about this: AFAIK an overflow of the counter does not effect the discoveries - does it? For example: If I deliver too many vans and the red thing goes blue again and have science slider set to 0 and only one scientist this one scientist will trigger the next discovery.
    Is there anything in this, which I don't know? For example: rising tech costs for the next techs?
     
  16. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Merlin_Pilgrim provided the formula. Thanks Merlin.
    Correct on both counts.
    As Prof. Garfield correctly pointed out it is immediate.
    I hope you do choose to play. Keep in mind that this game will have an extended deadline so you will have about a month more than the usual allotted time.
    Good point. I have not made such a rule. This is something I have to think about. However, let me point out that it is possible to set the science rate to 100% without riots. I have done it myself though only in my FT255 games. What you need is all the happiness wonders, temples and coliseums in every city, and a few entertainers. The ELG mentions this too. You still have a good point though. A player who is not ready to set the science rate to 100% without riots can do so in the last turn. What do others think? Should we allow or disallow this?
    If trade gives you more beakers than you need for your discovery it does not negatively affect you up to a point. (Thus, you are right one scientist can trigger the next discovery.) That point, which I have never reached myself as I simply save my vans for next turn but have seen being reported once, is reached if you deliver so many vans that the variable that keeps track of it overflows. Since the tech cost can easily be in 4 digits, this counter is very likely a 16 bit variable which in twos complement will overflow around 32K.
    This can only happen if you deliver a massive number of vans in one turn or shut down all your science for many turns while you keep delivering.
     
  17. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    This list is for medium size maps. For large maps, you have to multiply by 5/4 (and round down). So 26 becomes 32.

    This overstates the cost a little bit (if you convert the 26's to 32's). This is 3 times the cost of discovering the last tech.

    A more accurate formula is
    (3/2)*(cost of first tech + (cost of first tech + 32 + 32))
    If, you have to discover all 3 techs through science.

    If, as will probably happen, you discover 1 tech by caravan, the cost for the other 2 techs is simply
    (cost of first tech + 32) + (cost of first tech + 32 + 32)

    I would say that you should either allow larger food deficits at the end of the game as well as allow 100% science for those who are unready for it, thus saying that the discovery of three techs in a turn can be a "stunt," or you should disallow both tactics.
     
  18. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Thanks to Merlin, Prof and Ali for the formulas and answers.

    I don't plan to get very involved in any rules debates, partly because I have little experience with this kind of game. But I think it is going to be hard to enforce "sustainabilty" by adding more and more rules. As another example, it should be very easy to get one tech in the final turn from accumulated vans, but it is not easy to do that every turn.

    Someone suggested that the goal should be 10 advances in 4 consecutive turns [or something similar]. Would that cover the "sustainability" issue ?

    Also, we all seem to be assuming the human will be Supreme, but I suppose there may be some way to avoid that, to get an advantage from tech-gifting. Do we want to require Supreme ?
     
  19. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Very good argument. I am going to disallow it. I will change the first response shortly.
    There are only 2 rules so far. Adding a 3rd is not, in my opinion, going over board.
    It indeed would. But it makes the job of the person checking the games next to impossible. What is he going to do in between those consecutive turns? Are we going to leave him instructions about what to deliver, what to build, ...
    There are ways to take advantage of that, but not for long. Being Supreme is not a requirement. The game's interface for diplomacy is extremely cumbersome. One has to go through so many steps to give away a tech and there is no way to give away multiple techs. I just wanted to reduce the real time it takes to play the game when I decided on purple.
     
  20. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I was going to send this to Magic and have him put it in its appropriate place but apparently it is no longer possible to send attachments via private message. So here we go:


    As for the deadline, I let Magic set that too. It should be sometime in October though.
     

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