I will make the download page tommorow. Feel free to download the game from Ali's post.
Gotm 113 (E3FT)
- Thread starter Ali Ardavan
- Start date
What is the problem ? The player saves before the 4 turns and saves after the 4 turns. Are you concerned about cheating by trading with the AI ? It seems unlikely the AI will have FT's ...
Also, I am sorry that we cannot discuss the sustainability of van trade. It is probably a bigger factor than the ones you have addressed.
The goal of this GOTM is to be the first who achieves 3 Future techs in a single turn. The final save you turn in must be at the "End Turn" stage and after hitting return three FTs should be discovered before the opening sequence is done. You may not:
1. Build Darwin during this turn
2. Have a city with a food surplus < -1 that has a scientist
(By food surplus I mean food produced minus food consumed not what is is in the food box.)
3. Have cities that the attitude adviser (F4) reports as being in riot or about to riot (in red) at the "End Turn" stage. A city that prior to "End Turn" stage was in order, but goes into riot the next turn for any reason is not a concern.
It is permissible to have undiscovered regular techs. Darwin may be built prior to the last save. You can use trade and Xining as you wish. You can use any number of scientists and any science rate subject to the above restrictions. All other regular GOTM rules apply (most notably rehoming of vans is not allowed).
The Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals would go to those who achieve this earliest. The blue star would be awarded as usual. The green star would automatically go to the gold medalist. In case of a tie the person with the highest Civ2 score wins.
Game settings:
Civilization: purple (Mongols)
Emperor level, 7 Civs, restarts on
No huts (which implies a scenario which implies no tech hiding)
barb setting: villages only (which implies no barbarians due to absence of huts)
Map: Large Earth (standard one that came with the game)
Player positions will be randomized
Notes
- Since there are no advantages in game play due to future techs you may as well set science to zero after achieving all prerequisite regular techs till your science output reaches the level needed for FT2+FT3. If you keep your science at zero for a while make sure you do not deliver too much in that period because you may overflow the counter and end up with a negative science box.
- Natural growth will never give you a city with a food surplus < -1. Cities where every citizen is turned into a scientist are not allowed in the final save.
- Not allowing any city in (or about to) riot in the final save is to prevent one from maxing science to 100% without proper preparation. (Setting science to any rate is OK.)
- Purple mitigates the time consuming process of tech gifting
- 7 Civs and restarts on are the best that can be done to assure every one has a live key civ at all times.
- Lack of huts and barbs eliminate 2 elements of random luck
- Known map allows earlier strategic planing
- Randomized player locations keeps the element of exploration, diminished by a known map and lack of huts, alive.
The actual game will be posted in early August. Due date will be in October allowing more time than the usual one month. Magic and I decided to start this item earlier for feedback and preparation.
1. Build Darwin during this turn
2. Have a city with a food surplus < -1 that has a scientist
(By food surplus I mean food produced minus food consumed not what is is in the food box.)
3. Have cities that the attitude adviser (F4) reports as being in riot or about to riot (in red) at the "End Turn" stage. A city that prior to "End Turn" stage was in order, but goes into riot the next turn for any reason is not a concern.
It is permissible to have undiscovered regular techs. Darwin may be built prior to the last save. You can use trade and Xining as you wish. You can use any number of scientists and any science rate subject to the above restrictions. All other regular GOTM rules apply (most notably rehoming of vans is not allowed).
The Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals would go to those who achieve this earliest. The blue star would be awarded as usual. The green star would automatically go to the gold medalist. In case of a tie the person with the highest Civ2 score wins.
Game settings:
Civilization: purple (Mongols)
Emperor level, 7 Civs, restarts on
No huts (which implies a scenario which implies no tech hiding)
barb setting: villages only (which implies no barbarians due to absence of huts)
Map: Large Earth (standard one that came with the game)
Player positions will be randomized
Notes
- Since there are no advantages in game play due to future techs you may as well set science to zero after achieving all prerequisite regular techs till your science output reaches the level needed for FT2+FT3. If you keep your science at zero for a while make sure you do not deliver too much in that period because you may overflow the counter and end up with a negative science box.
- Natural growth will never give you a city with a food surplus < -1. Cities where every citizen is turned into a scientist are not allowed in the final save.
- Not allowing any city in (or about to) riot in the final save is to prevent one from maxing science to 100% without proper preparation. (Setting science to any rate is OK.)
- Purple mitigates the time consuming process of tech gifting
- 7 Civs and restarts on are the best that can be done to assure every one has a live key civ at all times.
- Lack of huts and barbs eliminate 2 elements of random luck
- Known map allows earlier strategic planing
- Randomized player locations keeps the element of exploration, diminished by a known map and lack of huts, alive.
The actual game will be posted in early August. Due date will be in October allowing more time than the usual one month. Magic and I decided to start this item earlier for feedback and preparation.
Good point. I misunderstood you earlier. I suppose we could have done it this way too. But with the game posted, it is kind of late now.
In my experience when playing FT255 games, the sustainability of van trade is not a big deal if you have a sufficient number of cities. After a while your cities have nothing left to do but produce vans. With railroads and airports everywhere delivering them quickly is not a big deal either.
If this game goes well, maybe we can get you and other EC players interested in playing similar games. There are many ways to devise interesting games.
This should be obvious but nevertheless I thought I mention it. The map for this game is known (the large world map that shipped with the game). You are welcome to open that map (but not the saved game or any future saves of your own) in the map editor for planning.
I have started the initial planning for this game but have not played yet. I would like everyone to comment on:
1. Where they are planning to build the SSC
2. Where they are planning to build the first city
3. What they are planning to do with the second settler
1. Where they are planning to build the SSC
2. Where they are planning to build the first city
3. What they are planning to do with the second settler
Hm, I just noticed that this is an emperor level game, not deity. Perhaps I should look into early republic. Also, Hanging Gardens and Cure for Cancer will be more important, since it will be difficult to get enough cities to start having black hats everywhere. At least the early wonder race won't be quite as tight.
I wasn't going to build an SSC. There are two reasons to put Colossus, Copernicus and Newton in the same city. First reason is to take advantage of the extra trade of the Colossus in the science multiplier of Cope's and Newton's. The second reason is so that you only have to develop 1 city. I'm figuring that I'll be able to get through the tech-tree using caravans more quickly than I'll be able to develop the infrastructure needed to research 3 future techs in a turn, so I won't need the extra science from the SSC during the game. This means that colossus will expire before I need the boost it will give to the SSC. Also by the late game, I'll be improving lots (if not most) of my cities, so having Newton and Copernicus in the same city is not critical.
There are a couple potential SSC sites nearby. There's one in northern India, with access to gold and silk, and, possible, 2 hidden specials, not to mention a fair amount of river. It's probably the best site: lots of land to support scientists later on. Biggest drawback is using that site prevents partitioning the river and its specials for use by 2 or 3 smaller cities.
There is a spot in Indochina with 4 specials and a good amount of land and river. Drawback is that you have to clear the swamp and jungle. There's a spot in China with a lot of river and grassland and at least 3 specials.
There may be some merit in gambling that no one starts off in Australia (or that they can be easily beaten) and attempting to sail there early and establish an SSC there. It would give a separate continent bonus for trade with all Africa-Europe-Asia, resulting in handsome deliveries from its caravans, and might be very useful to have the colossus off-continent if the AI doesn't grow fast enough to make a good trading partner.
My first city will be on the river north-east of the start location. My second settler will go to the southern tip of India and build there, to have access to the whales. Next cities will probably on the river west of the start location, and north to take advantage of the river silk.
I wasn't going to build an SSC. There are two reasons to put Colossus, Copernicus and Newton in the same city. First reason is to take advantage of the extra trade of the Colossus in the science multiplier of Cope's and Newton's. The second reason is so that you only have to develop 1 city. I'm figuring that I'll be able to get through the tech-tree using caravans more quickly than I'll be able to develop the infrastructure needed to research 3 future techs in a turn, so I won't need the extra science from the SSC during the game. This means that colossus will expire before I need the boost it will give to the SSC. Also by the late game, I'll be improving lots (if not most) of my cities, so having Newton and Copernicus in the same city is not critical.
There are a couple potential SSC sites nearby. There's one in northern India, with access to gold and silk, and, possible, 2 hidden specials, not to mention a fair amount of river. It's probably the best site: lots of land to support scientists later on. Biggest drawback is using that site prevents partitioning the river and its specials for use by 2 or 3 smaller cities.
There is a spot in Indochina with 4 specials and a good amount of land and river. Drawback is that you have to clear the swamp and jungle. There's a spot in China with a lot of river and grassland and at least 3 specials.
There may be some merit in gambling that no one starts off in Australia (or that they can be easily beaten) and attempting to sail there early and establish an SSC there. It would give a separate continent bonus for trade with all Africa-Europe-Asia, resulting in handsome deliveries from its caravans, and might be very useful to have the colossus off-continent if the AI doesn't grow fast enough to make a good trading partner.
My first city will be on the river north-east of the start location. My second settler will go to the southern tip of India and build there, to have access to the whales. Next cities will probably on the river west of the start location, and north to take advantage of the river silk.
I have started the game. I built my first city on the square directly north of the staring position (this allowed the Fish special and the 4 river squares to be in the city). Like Prof.Garfield, I sent the second settler to the tip of India to access the whales. Also, as mentioned by Prof.Garfield, I have started a city in Northern India to access the Silk and Gold (and hidden specials). I am planning on using this city as the SSC (if I can build all of the pieces before the AIs).
I too have started. I will post a partial log soon. Like others I chose the northern India site with access to 8 rivers, gold, silk and 2 hidden specials for my SSC. This location is a wonderful place for a SSC. I doubt if anyone would pick any other site.
I built my first city on a river two tiles NW of the starting position gaining access to a whale and losing the fish.
Like others I decided that the second settler should build a new city rather than stick around for improvements and like others I chose the southern most tip of india with access to 2 whales for that purpose.
I built my first city on a river two tiles NW of the starting position gaining access to a whale and losing the fish.
Like others I decided that the second settler should build a new city rather than stick around for improvements and like others I chose the southern most tip of india with access to 2 whales for that purpose.
Very interesting and original thinking. I partially agree with your point about Colossus. The observations that it expires before we can reach FTs and that developing infrastructure for 3FTs in a row takes time are both well made. However, Colossus also increases your trade bonuses, taxes, and luxury. For 200 shields it is well worth it. If I am going to build it I may as well put it in my SSC.
I disagree with your point about the Copernicus and Newton though. Even at the stage when all cities are fully developed having those two in the same city gives you an 8 multiplier to your science where as any other city will get a mere 2.5. So you get one city that is worth more than 3 for the price of these two wonders.
Wow! I never thought of that. Very interesting strategy. There are two serious drawbacks though:
1. It takes quite a bit longer to establish the SSC there.
2. There will be significant loss of arrows due to corruption prior to Democracy.
However, the extra trade bonuses may very well make up for that.
CharlieChuck
Prince
I'm going to build capital at 106,76 and second at 54,80. Might build a road between them first. Third city will be on the river at 110,74 for the extra trade arrow the river gives. SSC will be like everyone else, near the gold/silk.
Ah, you're right. I forgot that the wonders give a bonus to each other. I'll blame this oversight on having my mind full of triple integrals and vector differential equations because of exams. In any case, all it really means is that you have to capture Cope's before Newton's gets built; not a particularly tall order. It's not likely that Cope's will be in a super spot if built by the AI, but it's not likely to be in a horrible spot either. The biggest problem that I have with an SSC is that it you have to get a couple more wonders very early, which makes expansion more difficult; also the more you plan to get science by caravan, the less valuable the SSC is.
The 200 shields for colossus isn't a problem; the problem is when you have to amass them. You can do a lot for 200 shields in the early game. Building colossus/SSC also means that you are committing to making substantial improvements to the land around the city, so you also have to figure in settler time to improve the local as well. In any case, if the AI gets the colossus it can make a great destination for caravans.
It was just something that occurred to me when looking around for SSC spots. Thinking about it a bit more led me to my strategy for this game (which does not include building an SSC there):
Don't build MPE. This is a known map, and, by going for early republic, I can get diplomats early and send a couple exploring to find neighbors. Also, by going for early republic, I'll only need to trade for mysticism (more likely to be known by a civ than literacy) to get the pre-reqs for philosophy. I can then put MPE's shields into Hanging Gardens.
Find out if someone started in Australia (send trireme with diplomat and settler relatively early). If so, trade with them in the early game and proceed as usual. If not (or if they look like they'll make lousy trading partners), build the lighthouse and do trans-pacific trade with America. I'll build colonies there, so that my triremes can have caravans on both directions of the trip.
I have a question, though. I thought of starting games on the world map a few times with random start locations in order to get an idea of where the game was likely to place civs (in particular how likely it would be for someone to start in China and Australia) and I was wondering if there would be any objections to doing this.
True. Colossus comes at the expense of early expansion. My own feeling is that an SSC is more than worthwhile in the long run but in the early landing game we played recently Peaster beat my time without one.
Interesting strategy. I have played a lot of OCCs on the world map and when on the main land (Asia, Africa, Europe) I often end up not making Marco because by the time I am ready to do so I have already met over half my rivals. The early Republic part would be an interesting strategy. I am not a great fan of Republic and at times extend the useful life of Monarchy through celebrations but in this game I switched to Republic as soon as I got it which is much earlier than usual for me.
I have made up the rules for this game and in my opinion this is legit. However, Magic is ultimately in charge and should weigh in.
I can tell you from my experience of playing many games on the world map that it is rare that you do not get at least one player in Americas and it is unusual that you get anyone in Australia. Why do you care about China?
Have no problems either.
I'd like direct access to the Pacific, and a civ in the China area would make this much trickier; also China contains some nice land, so it is a logical first expansion point. I was wondering about the likelihood of a relatively early "border dispute." On the other hand, a civ in China would also be a convenient place to deliver caravans I build in America.
I found that a civ in China or the Russian Far East was very common, so I'll probably send my first explorer that way to find exactly what I'm dealing with, rather than send the first explorer west. If anyone's interested, I'll post the results of my trial starts.
I noticed you started a spoiler thread. How much would you recommend playing before taking a look at it?
My general rule for this, and this game is no different, is to abstain till I know where most other rivals are located. This is typically after building Marco and the ensuing map exchange.
My failure to build a true SSC in that game was partially a mistake, and I don't recommend it. I did build the Colossus in a city that I intended to make into an SSC, and I did use that city successfully for trade, as an STC, I guess. But an AI beat me to Cope's at an early date (approx 100AD IIRC), partly by switching from some other WoW at the last minute. If I play for EL again, I will go for a full SSC, and will take more care against such AI accidents. I will also go for Big Trade again.
But ... I haven't planned for E3FT yet, and am unsure about building the Colossus [because it expires]. I'll probably build a traditional SSC, along with lots of cities and lots of scientists, aiming for 2T/turn from them asap. I don't think capturing Cope's will work as well. The rules discourage Big Trade, so I am undecided on the merit in that.
What do you mean by this statement? I don't see anything in the rules that talks about trade.
ditto. How do the rules discourage trade?
Well ... think about how the whole idea of E3FT came up. We were discussing Trade, and I made some general assertions for some newbie, that nobody seemed to accept. One main idea was that Big Trade was very efficient, maybe more important than Democracy or an SSC. [This was somewhat justified in our EL GOTM, though my respect for Democracy + SSC has increased since then]. Anyway, Ali claimed my ideas would not be valid in an E255FT game. This E3FT game arose from that claim.
The rules do not explicitly prevent a Big Trade strategy, but IMO the idea was to find a setting where it is not the best plan. To win E3FT, you need 2FT from cities and 1FT from trade. As Ali said, the one from trade will be easy - you don't need "Big Trade"; you can patiently build up a pile of vans near AI cities, and wait for the end.
Maybe Big Trade is still a good way to build towards that end. Dunno yet. But that seems to be the thesis we are testing.
The rules do not explicitly prevent a Big Trade strategy, but IMO the idea was to find a setting where it is not the best plan. To win E3FT, you need 2FT from cities and 1FT from trade. As Ali said, the one from trade will be easy - you don't need "Big Trade"; you can patiently build up a pile of vans near AI cities, and wait for the end.
Maybe Big Trade is still a good way to build towards that end. Dunno yet. But that seems to be the thesis we are testing.
