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GOTM 119 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Inkerman, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    That is indeed too many. Quite a few of them are food vans for the next wonder which could have already been built had French been willing to trade for Astronomy. They are not building Copernicus and they are not trading it. I gifted them to Enthusiastic and they still refuse to trade. Mongols have been researching Astronomy for ages and Japanese recently started. I was hoping to trade for it instead of discovering it on my own. It was not a big deal before Democracy but it is now.

    As for trade, you are right the pay offs are small but I need the routes to help my cities celebrate in Democracy. 10 of my cities celebrated after Democracy with lux at 30%, none had a marketplace, most had at least one route. Besides building vans for trading with the rivals I am also building them for my own off shore cities. The payouts are just as well since you get the offshore bonus instead of the foreign bonus and on top of that I get not one but two trade routes.

    Having said all that, 22 vans lying around is still a sign of poor planning.

    Having chosen the gardens over Colossus I suppose you plan to win by conquest since for a science city Colossus is extremely important.

    Besides the fact that despite the odds any outcome is possible, settlers should not be underestimated since they have a hit point of 2 where as all other ancient units have a hit point of 1. This means they can take twice as much damage before dying as any other ancient unit.

    You seriously think you can conquer before +500 on a map this large with restarts on? Unbelievable! I am not an EC player but I would not have guessed anything before +1000 possible.
    Impressive as always. You completed wonders before the rest of us at the same time that you were expanding faster than us.
     
  2. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    The issue came up long ago when Duke was the moderator and he OKed it. I cannot remember the date so it would be hard to search for it. A player moved a unit accidentally to an unfavorable position and was fuming about it. I told them to go back to the autosave at the beginning of the turn if everything up to that point is repeatable. (By the way, if you have not already, turn off the game option that allows movement with a mouse. A lot of accidental moves are caused by that.) Duke called it the "fat finger syndrome" and approved.

    Basically if you make a mistake of hitting the wrong key or forgetting to do something you were planning to do (hitting return too early) it is OK to go back as long as everything since the save is repeatable. You have to move your units exactly as before so if you unexpectedly moved next to an enemy unit you have to do it again. Obviously this is not practical if it has been a while since the save.

    The underlying principle is that this is a game of strategy and not a game of agility. You should not be punished for hitting the wrong key or the right key too soon (ending the turn before starting a revolution, changing government, rushing what you planned to rush, ...)
     
  3. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I had built it in the wrong city... so no choice there. But I will say that I was expecting them to build Pyramids, or something like that. Instead, they built Colossus in Satsuma and I took my revenge and got the Pyramids. (subverted Satsuma later.) Colossus was the only wonder the AI ever built. But my science city was still pretty powerful, especially since I did not got to Automobile and Computers before the game ended. (I had chosen to quit science over taxes earlier to rush infrastructure for PDS and last-minute score-increasing stuff such as courthouses and supermarkets)

    I'm pretty sure, had I gotten both HG and Colossus, that I could have finished about 5-10 turns earlier. I'm unsure on the effect that the Pyramids had on my cities, but I noticed that almost no core city of mine was stuck at size 2 when celebrations began, and I was still favouring shields in cities. I finished by late conquest.

    Also, I was not planning on building few if any warriors for martial law, so HG was needed until I'd get Mikes.
     
  4. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    I don't have time right now to post a full log, but here are a couple of highlights and then my status at 1AD.

    I used the size 1 trick and built my first settler in 3350 BC. Seville was settled in 3300BC (at 175,31).
    In 3050 The Vikings appeared next to Seville (just as Seville and Madrid finished build warriors). They popped the hut next to Seville. They demanded Alphabet which I gave and then demanded Writing which I felt forced to give to them.
    Monarchy was discovered in 2450BC and an instant revolution establish the Monarchy.
    Trade was discovered in 1650BC
    MPE was built in 850BC (in Cordoba).
    Colossus was built (in Madrid, of course) in 725BC.
    Hanging Gardens was built (in Madrid) in 425BC.
    Mike's was built in 225BC in Toledo.
    Lighthouse was built in 25BC in Barcelona.

    The Vikings sneak attacked in 900BC Kaupang was captured in 575BC. I signed a cease-fire in 550BC for 200g. Cease-fire lasted until 450BC when I bribed Hladir for 114g. The vikings declared war. Trondheim was captured in 350BC. Uppsala was captured in 250BC destroying the Vikings. The French respawned.

    Status at 1AD

    Population: 1.70M Cities: 21 Trade routes: 0D0F Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 274 Cost per turn: 1 Total advances: 22 Production: 98MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: MPE, HG, Colossus, LH, Mikes
    Units: 14 Settlers, 18 Warriors, 5 Phalanx, 1 Archer, 1 Horsemen, 1 Chariot, 1 Elephants, 1 Crusader, 2 Triremes, 14 caravans
    Romans: 7 cities, 11 techs. Despo, peace, 287g. Currently building GL.
    Japanese: 6 cities, 16 techs. Despo, peace, 381g. Currently building Pyramids. At war with Persians.
    French: 2 cities, 15 techs. Monarchy, peace, 17g.
    Vikings: Destroyed by me
    Persians: 5 cities, 15 techs. Despo, peace, 307g. At war with Japanese.
    Greeks: 6 cities, 13 techs. Monarchy, peace, 369g.
    Mongols: 7 cities, 11 techs. Monarchy, peace, 321g.

    A couple more notes:
    Republic was discovered and established in 60AD.
    First trade routes were established in 160AD. Madrid Silver (D) was delivered to Rome for 414g. Cordoba Gems (D) were delivered to Madrid for 144g.
    Democracy was discovered and established in 620A.
     
  5. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    This explanation seems reasonable to me; if it was something you simply forgot to do, rather than something you belatedly wish you had done. Also, going back several turns seems excessive to me.

    About Colossus: we played for EL a few months back, and I read some of solo's writings then. IIRC, he considered the Colossus nice-but-optional in an SSC, and I tend to agree. Missing it shouldn't be a game-changer, but it will usually pay for itself, so build it, if you can do so painlessly.

    About 500AD EC: this may be wishful thinking - it is hard to estimate respawns. I'll take this as a challenge though!
     
  6. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Exactly. It should be something you were planning to do and forgot not something you wish you had done.
    I agree that Colossus is not absolutely necessary but I would say it is more than nice-but-optional. It is very important, the most important of the ancient wonders. Even in Deity it is questionable whether one should choose Hanging Gardens over it; at King level there is no question that Colossus is the more prudent choice. But as Jokemaster indicated later he was indeed playing for conquest and not landing.
     
  7. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    As I was planning to build almost zero martial law units (considered them a waste due to the reduced unhappiness of King level) I found HG to be very helpful during the pre-Mikes period, as it was almost necessary to keep order. It also helped tremendously with celebrations, as expected. Overall, I think I came ahead with this choice.

    Also, the Colossus was more about the arrow boost than the science I think, and with no offshore trading partners, the effect on caravan delivery bonuses was reduced.
     
  8. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Thanks again to fellow players sharing game accounts, thoughts and knowledge.

    As I suspected in the opening post (re “the early middle game”) I did not take my opportunities in the way others did in the 40 turns to AD1. To illustrate I am pleased to show some numbers of the AD1 positions based on posts above. No doubt more detail available in a few months with the results and the save files.

    Code:
    Player                   Cities     Advances     Wonders       Units
    Peaster                   67          21            5            69
    Ali Ardavan               36          25            3            51
    Jokemaster                35          27            3.9          42
    haleewud                  21          22            5            58
    Inkerman                  11          17            2            35
    
    With Peaster out in front but on EC (very possibly before 500AD), and Magic_Gorter's post suggesting he is right up with the rate too, it could be close for the spaceship/GOTM score and I guess it may depend on judgement about the balance of early arrival against city growth.
     
  9. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    @ Inkerman: When expanding in the early game, switch the city workers to forest or some other shield heavy squares (such as Peat, Whale, Coal, pheasant or silk) when your cities grow to size 2, while size 1 cities need to focus on food, to grow to size 2. (with the size 1 trick being the obvious exception) Basically any square that produces at least 2 shields per turn should be good) as soon as you get a size 2 city, so settlers are built faster. It's very powerful to grow this way, and even more powerful if you get the Pyramids (because cities regrow to size 2 much faster, as they already have at least 15 food sheaves in the box, which only 5 needed to regrow. Sometimes you will regrow instantly... a settler each 8 turns is a pretty good return rate!)

    It's hard to get Pyramids online fast enough to make a difference (as Marco, Colossus and HG were all higher on the priority list during this game, with maybe also LH. That is, if you can't build Mike's yet, or if the Pyramids are still available)

    A good target to begin with for number of cities is 16 cities by 1 AD, although it is still inferior. What you should be shooting for is 25 cities at least, with 30-35 being your final objective. Of course it all depends on luck and these other random factors, but it's still a good objective to aim, and often guarantees a great game, with the ability to slowly grow your GOTM score over time until you reach great heights. If you're using the ICS stragegy, which crams cities closer to each other (much like Peaster is using... he also has taxes at maximum for EC, which obviously helps) then you can aim even higher, since settlers don't have to travel as far to get to their city sites.
     
  10. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    My log, up to 500 AD. I was rather slow on science because I wanted to take care of the Romans and to PDS my base of cities first. But who needs science since for Civ and GOTM score all you need is population? ;)


    1 AD: Séville builds Mikes, starts Lighthouse. Pop hut: 25g. Japs: 100g.

    Interturn: Germans switch to Republic.

    20 AD: Japs: 150g. Romans: 25g. Greeks: 100g. Build Hambourg at (174, 62)

    Interturn: Japs develop Math.

    40 AD: Japs do not want to trade. Romans: 25g. Update Persian and German maps. Build at (194, 48) and on a hill.

    60 AD: Romans: 50g. Japs: Give Construction. Trade Republic for Math. No tribute.

    Interturn: Greek and Mongol warfare observed. Greeks start Lighthouse. Persians discover Currency. Germans discover Masonry and start the Great Wall. Greeks and Japs declare war.

    80 AD: 2 vans in Séville for wonder: 82s left. Romans: No tribute. Persia: 50g. Greeks: 50g. Mongols: 50g. Japs: No tribute. Build Salzbourg at (161, 55)

    Interturn: Greeks develop Currency, and take the Mongol city of Samarkand. They acquire Construction from them. Barbs near Satsuma, stack gets killed by Jap archer. Japs and Romans declare war. Japs take Greek city of Knossos and Currency. It’s a wild world!

    100 AD: Discover Medicine, start Astronomy. Van in Séville: LH in 3 turns. Techrate 11 turns. Mongols: Give Math, Feudalism and Philosophy. Japs: No tribute.

    Interturn: Romans develop Banking.

    120 AD: Madrid starts Shakes. Romans: WAR! Advance troops near Cumes. 4 vans in Madrid: 100s left for Shakes. Pop hut: 50g.

    Interturn: Crusader dies to a Roman Legion. At least no one got to the stack.

    140 AD: Elephant kills Roman Legion in Cumes. Cumes stormed for 5g+barracks+1 citizen. Persia: 50g. Greeks: 50g. Japs: No tribute.

    Interturn: Jap Ele kills Greek Phalanx in Delphes.

    160 AD: Séville builds Lighthouse. Greeks switch to Oracle. Van in Madrid: 46s left for Shakes. Turn down Roman emissary. Get my army at striking distance from Véies. Build Bergen at (142, 62) Japs: No tribute.

    Interturn: Jap government overthrown.

    180 AD: Kill a Roman Phalanx in Véies. Véies stormed for 7g+citizen. Kill a Roman Horsemen near Véies. Emissary turned down. Build Venise at (157, 61) Build Milan at (163, 61)

    Interturn: Roman government overthrown. Japan becomes a republic. Population exceeds 2 milion citizens.

    200 AD: Build Ghent at (189, 7) Crusader dies to Phalanx in Rome. Vet Ele kills Phalanx in Rome. Ele kills wounded Phalanx (vet) Romans abandon GL. Vet ele kills Phalanx in Antium. Rome stormed for 13g+2 citizens. Antium stormed for 7g+citizen+harbour. Position 2 Eles near Naples. Persia: No tribute. Japs: 100g.

    Interturn: Rome becomes a Republic.

    220 AD: Sell barracks in Cumes for 40g. Ele dies to Legion near Naples, the other Ele kills it off. Send an Ele and a Cru as reinforcements. Move a Legion in Pise city radii. An Ele goes looking for other Roman cities, while the other Eles heal. Greeks: 50g. Japs: 50g.

    Interturn: Germans develop CoL.

    240 AD: Update German, Persian maps. Naples stormed for 11g+citizen+barracks, sold for 40g. Build Pise at (185, 1) Japs: 50g.

    260 AD: Build Dublin at (164, 68) Legion dies attacking Roman Legion in Pise. I am experiencing unusually heavy casualties during this game. Spot Roman settler near Rome, mining. Japs: 25g. Pop hut on continent 4: AT (Toronto, (3, 17)) Position troops near Ravenne. Pop hut: Barbs. Kill one barb horsemen, would be surprised if same thing happens with the other two.

    Interturn: Barbs kill my elephant.

    280 AD: Discover Astronomy: start Navigation. Kill Roman Warrior in Ravenne: Ravenne sacked for 6g. Position 2 crusaders near Pise. Greeks: 50g. Japs: 25g. Build Melbourne at (162, 16) Pop hut: More barbs. Time to rush a new horsemen. Kill one: vet.

    Interturn: Barbs kill my horsemen.

    300 AD: Séville settlers and start Sun Tzu. Madrid builds Shakes, sells Temple for 40g and starts Cope’s. Should have done it the other way around. 6 vans in Paris: Cope’s built next turn. 4 vans in Séville: 100s left for Sun Tzu. Mongols: 50g. Japs: 25g. Update German maps. Kill Roman Legion in Pise: Pise sacked for 7g. Hail Romans: Sign cease-fire after gaining 32g tribute. Refuse peace treaty. Give Construction, Philosophy, swap maps. Last Roman city is WAY out of range, and actually rather close to Jap homeland. Build Sydney at (148, 70) Build Madrid II at (171, 67) Build Séville II at (112, 20) as a base for colonization and future ops against Persia.

    Interturn: Persian dip steals Construction from Séville II. Declare war to Persia.

    320 AD: Madrid builds Cope’s, produces 38 beakers. Techrate 7 turns. Rush a piker in Séville II. Japs: 25g. Build Tolède II at (0, 10) Pop hut on continent 21: AT (Cordoue II) at (177, 87)

    340 AD: Update German maps: They seem very slow on expansion. Still only one city. Pop hut: 50g. Van in Séville: 42s left for Sun Tzu. I’ll maybe need it after all. Build Valence II at (162, 4) Rush another explorer horsemen.

    Interturn: Barbs near defended Rome.

    360 AD: Japs: 50g. Greeks: 50g. Persia: Turn down cease-fire and offer of 50g for cease-fire (was going for all of their gold... probably a mistake) Renew war. 2 Persian units near Séville II: Rush a crusader. Build Salamanque II at (154, 14) 247g: Gold reserves are getting low and no tribute can be expected from any civ (except Persia) Oedo year next turn, REVOLUTION!!! T0L6S4.

    Interturn: Persian units near Séville II. Barbs kill themselves attacking Rome: Piker vet. Germans develop Literacy, switch from GW to GL.

    380 AD: Monarchy reestablished. Japs: No tribute. Kill Persian warrior, crusader vet. Kill Persian legion. Revolution: Republic established. T1L8S1 to spark nation-wide PDS. Build Barcelone II at (156, 36) Pop hut at (23, 15) Advanced Tribe of Valladoid II. Pop hut: Barbs.

    Interturn: Greeks invite me to join war against Japs, I say no. Persian units near Séville II. Romans acquire Masonry from Japs. Japs acquire Philosophy from Romans. They sign a peace treaty. Romans acquire Math from Japs, Japs acquire Banking from Romans. Romans acquire WC from Japs, Japs acquire CoL from Romans. Japs acquire Trade from Romans, Romans acquire Myscitism from Japs. This is getting a bit redundant. FINALLY FINISHED. Barbs did not attack.

    400 AD: For some random reason I did not got any celebration messages. Apparently that option was unchecked, weird. Don’t remember doing that.

    Interturn: Roman settler near undefended Véies. Persian archer/warrior stack moves near Séville II, another warrior near.

    420 AD: Population exceeds 4 million citizens. Vet crusader kills Persian archer/warrior stack. Pop hut: 50g. Hail Romans: Peace, update maps. Build Saragosse II at (137, 65) Hail Mongols: Give Republic, BB, Engineering, Medicine. Update maps. Germans: Update maps. Pop hut: Nomads.

    Interturn: Persian warrior near Sévile II. Spanish happest civ.

    440 AD: WLTCD ends in a couple of cities, worker adjustments. Population exceeds 5 million citizens. Kill Persian warrior near Séville II.

    Interturn: Persian trireme near one of my triremes.

    460 AD: Madrid builds Aqueduct. It will (obviously) be my SSC. Population exceeds 7 million citizens. T1L3S6. Discoveries 3 turns. Evade combat with Persian Trireme. Kill Persian horsemen near Séville II.

    Interturn: Mongols offer 50g for war against Greeks, I say no. Japs acquire Writing from Romans, Romans acquire The Wheel from the Japs. Japs acquire Literacy from Romans, Romans acquire Polytheism from Japs.

    480 AD: Discover Navigation: start Theology. T1L4S5. Pop hut: Crusaders. Build Cadix II at (154, 66) Pop hut: Barbs.

    Interturn: Barbs did not attack.

    500 AD: Séville builds Sun Tzu, starts Magellan’s. Japs: Ask for withdrawal (they have none) I am trying to goad them in declaring war (I have to do something with those crusaders and elephants...) 7 food vans in Séville: 50s left for Magellan’s. T2L4S4. Build Bilbao II at (10, 30)


    Looks like this GOTM will be very close indeed.
     
  11. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Thank you Jokemaster (and others) for your logs. Jokemaster, are you going for conquest, or spaceship, or perhaps have not decided yet? Whenever you could, a status at +500 would be nice.
     
  12. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I am still expanding. Trade, wonder building, and infrastructure are other priorities. My biggest weakness right now is lack of enough ships for expedient delivery. One tech per turn is now the norm with misses every now and then. Hut luck in this period was awful: no nomads, 1 advanced tribe, 1 measly 25g, and 4 barbarian hordes killing my units.

    +0520 Lombardy and Pasargad founded.
    +0540 Gunpowder -> Explosives. Brisbane and Zahedan founded. Crusader from hut.
    +0560 Romans build Pyramids. NorthOil, Dezful, and Adelaide founded.
    +0580 Advanced tribe founds Perth.
    +0600 Explosives -> Astronomy. French have had Astronomy for ages, just discovered Navigation, and refuse to exchange with me. Domestic delivery for 42, 96.
    +0620 Domestic Hides from Madrid for 264. Musketeer from hut. First Library built.
    +0640 Astronomy -> Theory of Gravity. King Richard's built in Madrid of size 18 giving it a production of 30. Florence and Vienna founded. 6 barbarian horsemen from hut kill my caravan. Domestic delivery for 48, 30. Japanese Susa bribed for 198g. Got 14g, Feudalism, and a soldier.
    +0660 Domestic delivery for 40. Ahvaz founded.
    +0680 Germs to Romans for 63.
    +0700 Japanese kill my wandering horseman. Theory of Gravity -> Theology. Copernicus built. First pollution appears near Madrid. Madrid is size 21 and producing 121 arrows. Domestic delivery for 102, 100. 7 barbarian horsemen from hut kill my explorer. Tweed, Geelong, and Wollongong founded.
    +0740 Theology -> Navigation. 6 barbarians from hut kill my crusader. Silk from Madrid to Japanese for 720. Domestic delivery for 46.
    +0760 Navigation -> Physics. Spice to Romans for 87. Domestic deliveries for 70, 68, 60.
    +0780 Japanese kill my explorer. Physics -> Economics. Domestic deliveries for 192.
    +0800 Toowoomba9 founded. Silk to Japanese for 258.
    +0820 Economics -> Magnetism. Cordoba relocated. 7 barbarian horsemen from hut kill my crusader.
    +0840 Musketeer survives barbarian legion. Bach built. Domestic deliveries for 56, 35.
    +0860 Magnetism -> Metallurgy. Madrid maxes out at 29 (prior to refrigeration). Domestic deliveries for 56, 120.
    +0880 Magellan built. Aussie1 founded. Domestic delivery for 92.
    +0900 Metallurgy -> Electricity. Gems to Romans for 126. Domestic deliveries for 112, 32, 55. Alhambra, Shiraz, and NewHladir founded.
    +0920 Electricity -> Conscription. 25g from hut. Domestic deliveries for 144, 110, 132, 80
    +0940 Conscription -> Refrigeration. Arbela, Aussie2, and Aussie3 founded. Domestic deliveries for 208, 81, 302.
    +0960 Refrigeration -> Atomic Theory. Foreign deliveries for 408, 243, 123. Antioch and Tasmania founded.
    +0980 Atomic Theory -> Steam Engine.
    +1000 Aussie4 and Auckland founded. Domestic deliveries for 170. Navigation -> Roman -> Chivalry.

    Status at +1000
    Population: 24.4M; Cities: 89; Trade routes: 61D13F; Government: Democracy
    Gold: 5; Cost per turn: 109; Total advances: 49; Production: 501; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Marco, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Leo, King Richard's, Copernicus, Magellan, Bach
    Units: 44 Engineers (1 None), 9 Rifleman, 12 Galleon, 1 Frigate, 4 Diplomats, 51 Caravan, 2 Explorer
    Roman: 5 cities, 31 techs; Pyramids
    Japanese: 11 cities, 21 techs; Lighthouse
    French: 6 cities, 23 techs
    Persian: 1 cities, 16 techs;
    Greek: 6 cities, 26 techs; war with Mongols
    Mongol: 4 cities, 42 techs; war with Greeks
     
  13. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    Forgot to do the whole status thing at 500 AD, and the closest save I got is my 740 AD one... but I counted some stuff, and I can say that I roughly had the same amount of cities, but a lesser government. (republic) At this moment, I had not decided yet how I was going to end this, as I was still focusing on building a healthy base for my civ (a.k.a population) I also had 9 wonders, but lacked Leo's and Mag's.

    You engaged in biological warfare? ;)

    At 560 AD? I'm surprised that you did not bother for those, as you had the vans for them... granted, they are not really powerful given your strategy, which appears to not emphasize expansion as much as I did, but they could have been useful for a getting a last-minute expansion push to size 3 and WLTPD in time for your landing...
     
  14. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Good point. They started ages before that and it took them a loooooong time to build it. My original plan was to let them build it, then bribe that city away. In fact, I was thinking of bribing all their cities except Rome. I am still thinking about it but thanks to many years of peace, my lack of ability to demand tribute, and the lucrative trade routes I have established in every one of their cities they are rich enough to demand over 1000 for their cities. Only recently have I been able to afford that and so far I have put if off in favor of other priorities.

    Hopefully you see Pyramids under my wonders by the next update.
     
  15. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    So I am playing deep into the game. I am building up my empire, generating Future Tech and trying to decide when to finish the game. By this point, the Mongols are down to 1 city and the Russians (restarted Romans), Zulus (restarted Japanese) and English (restarted Greeks) also only have 1 city (the Zulus actually built a second city, but I subverted it). The Persians still have 4 cities, (I took their original Capital after they 'sneak attacked', but the Senate prevented me from destroying their civilization).

    So I finally build the spaceship and I Launch it. I now have 11 turned to improve my score. I was getting 2 Future Techs per turn for a number of turns, but it was getting harder and harder to get the 2nd one (from my cities). So just before I launched, I gave the Mongols 12 more advances (and reduced my tech cost from 7000+ to just over 6500). So now I think I should have no problem with getting 22 more before the end.

    So I click end of turn and receive the following news:
    English capture Mongol city of Kashgar. Mongol civilization destroyed by the English.

    Argh... Just like that I lose my Key Civ and my Tech Cost jumps to over 8300.

    Stupid English, I guess I should have watched them a bit closer. I just wasn't worried about them since they only had 1 city and it was actually quite far away from all the other cities.
     
  16. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I played to 1180 last night. Turns are taking very long in real time. Since +1000 when one tech per turn was the norm I moved to 2 techs per turn and after SETI 3 techs per turn. Discovery of Flight has pushed me back to 2 techs per turn. I am still expanding. I did buy off Roman's Veii for its Pyramids at a hefty price. I have also bought off two of their other cities that were in my way. Their remaining three are fine and I intend to leave them unless provoked. I am at peace with everyone else and have not hesitated from sharing nearly all my techs with Mongols.
    I have been trading recently with Mongols and French to the tune of mostly disappointing returns. My own offshore domestic trades are a better deal. I am a turn or two away from discovering space flight and even longer away from building Apollo (not enough food caravans in storage).
     
  17. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    If you don't mind me asking, what was your T/L/S set to when you were getting 3 techs per turn? What was you tech cost? Did you give all (or most) of your tech to the Mongols?

    I checked again. Before the Mongols were killed my tech cost was 6528. When the Mongols were killed, I still got 1 Future Tech (I had delivered about 7000g worth of trucks the turn before). My cost after that FT is 10191. I would have to set my Science level to 70% to actually research an advance. Even if I put the remaining 30% to luxury, I probably wouldn't have a single city that would grow due to WLTPD celebrations.
     
  18. mackerel

    mackerel Chieftain

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    4000 - Madrid founded.
    3850 - Alphabet>Laws.
    3550 - Laws>Bronze.
    3300 - Size 1 settler.
    3250 - Seville founded. 16/30g toward settler in Madrid.
    3150 - 13/20g toward settler in Seville. Bronze>Burial.
    3050 - 13/13g toward settler in Seville.
    2950 - Madrid finally grows to size 2.
    2850 - Madrid settler.
    2800 - Burial>Monarchy.
    2750 - Toledo founded.
    2650 - Seville settler.
    2550 - Hut>50g. 29g toward settler in Toledo, 11 in Madrid, 44 in Seville.
    2500 - Cordoba founded. Monarchy>Currency. Instant bloodless revolution. Tax 3.0.7.
    2250 - Currency>Trade. 100k citizens.
    2200 - Toledo, Madrid, Seville settlers.
    2150 - Valencia founded.
    2100 - Salamanca founded. Rush 19g in Toledo, 6 Cordoba, 16 Seville.
    2050 - Toledo, Seville warrior, first military unit. 19g toward warrior in Valencia.
    2000 - Barcelona founded.

    2000 BC status - 7 cities, 8 total city size. 5 settlers in production, 3+2 warriors. 13 gold, 10 income, 21 beakers, 4 turn discoveries. 6 advances, Trade coming next turn. No contact with anyone. Valencia and Toledo are built on spice, and will be moved when Madrid is ready to matter as SSC.

    1950 - (preturn) Trade>Mapmaking. Cordoba settler. Whale found near Cordoba, and a nice place for a canal city ruined by not exploring before building.
    1750 - Nomads. Valladolid founded. Mapmaking>Writing.
    1700 - Hut>HBR.
    1650 - Madrid settler.
    1600 - Irrigation found to the north.
    1550 - Icy vikings encountered, give mapmaking, peace, burial, trade, monarchy, trade maps. They have 3 cities, only warriors and a settler visible. Toledo, Seville settler.
    1500 - Writing>Literacy.
    1450 - Salamanca, Valencia, Cordoba settler.
    1400 - Saragossa, Cadiz founded. 200k citizens.
    1350 - Hut>Literacy. Researching Mysticism.
    1250 - Bilbao founded. Valladolid produces first trireme. Barcelona produces first caravan, hides.
    1200 - Mysticism>Philosophy.
    1150 - Hut>Masonry.
    1100 - Granada founded on a one-square island, to begin the off-continent presence. Hut>barbs, 4 horsemen against one lonely defenseless warrior, which dies. Madrid hides van.
    1050 - Malaga founded. Hut>barbs, 7 horses this time, another dead warrior. 300k citizens.

    1000 BC status - 13 cities, 9 of them size 2. 2+3 settlers, 5+1 warriors, 1 trireme, 2+10 caravans. 26 gold, 12 income, 33 beakers, 7 turn discoveries. 13 advances. Vikings are back to Icy, 4 known cities.

    975 - Seville hides van.
    925 - Barb attack makes NON settler vet, survives second attack. Philosophy>Poly>Medicine. Toledo, Madrid hides van, 400k citizens.
    900 - Hut>tribe Pamplona. Tax 7.0.3 for 36g/turn until Vikings and barbs are taken care of. Valladolid settler. Cordoba hides van. Madrid MPE.
    875 - Cadiz, Valencia settler. Barcelona, Salamanca van.
    825 - Traded Rome literacy for pottery, gave trade+peace+philosophy, got maps.
    800 - Gave Mongols mapmaking, philosophy, got maps, 150g tribute. Gave Greeks peace, philosophy, hbr, mysticism, monarchy, masonry, currency, trade, literacy, laws, got maps (thought they didn't have mapmaking a minute ago..). Gave persians peace, philosophy, writing, trade, mysticism, got maps, 250g tribute. Gave Japan peace, mapmaking, bronze, got maps, 150g tribute. Barb repelled by warrior in the south. Madrid pyramids.
    775 - Pamplona elephant commences barbarian hunt. Vigo founded. Greeks ignore polite request for tribute. Bilbao, Saragossa, Seville van.
    750 - Avila, Leon founded. Hut>supported legion. Pamplona barb problem ended. Rome defies request for tribute. Disorder in Granada. Toledo van.
    725 - Southern barbs suppressed. Madrid van.
    700 - Legion disbanded toward settler. Provoking the icy vikings. Malaga settler. Madrid HG. 500k citizens.
    675 - Greek revolution (monarchy). Salamanca settler.
    650 - Vikings goaded into war. Hladir destroyed+17g. Accepted 150g for cease fire. Malaga settler.
    625 - Hut>barbs (kill warrior and elephant at Pamplona, ele takes one down). Vikings provoked again, Kaupang destroyed +3g, cease fire accepted as two damaged elephants are in danger. Hut>WarCode. Traded WarCode to Rome for Seafaring, 150g tribute. Barcelona, Seville, Madrid van. Cordoba settler.
    575 - Allied persians, war with Japan, 25g gift. 25g tribute from mongols. Bilbao, Saragossa, Salamanca, Toledo settler. Madrid Colossus.
    550 - 50g tribute from Rome. 100g tribute from Greece. Burgos, Oviedo founded. Valladolid, Seville settler. Barcelona trireme.
    525 - War with vikings again. Santander founded. Avila, Pamplona, Cadiz, Valencia, Cordoba settler.
    500 - Uppsala+14g captured, barracks sold. Rodrigo founded. Tax changed to 3.0.7 for a discovery or two, 8 turn advances.

    500 BC status - 22 cities. 13+17 settlers, 13 warriors, 8 elephants, 2 trireme, 0+3 caravans. War with japanese (too distant to matter) and vikings (1 city left). 218g, 20 income, 0 upkeep, 49 beakers, 8 turn advances. 18 discoveries.

    475 - Malaga settler. Calatrava, Cartagena founded. 50g from Rome, 75g from Greece, 25 from Mongols. Elephant dies to Trondheim phalanx.
    450 - Avila, Pamplona settler. Granada beads van. Medicine>Mono.
    425 - Trondheim fights off another second elephant. Naples founded. Toledo settler.
    400 - Issus, Cunaxa founded. Cadiz settler.
    375 - Cremona, Cannae, Capua, Turin, Genoa, Crete, Verona, Salamis founded. Disorder in Pamplona, Barcelona. Salamanca, Valencia settler. 800k citizens.
    350 - Trondheim emptied of defense but size 1, waiting on conquest. Romans begin GL. Leon, Malaga, Bilbao, Saragossa settler. 900k citizens.
    325 - Valencia settler. Madrid van. Trondheim grows and builds a phalanx, I destroy it and Vikings respawn as French. Romans drop to neutral and refuse tribute. 100g from Mongols. 100g from Greeks.
    300 - Burgos, Valladolid, Cordoba settler. Barcelona, Seville van.
    275 - Disorder in Rodrigo. 1m citizens.
    250 - Lisbon, Hamburg, Prague founded. Oviedo settler. Disorder in Burgos, Leon (two reds despite HG), Avila, Cadiz, Cordoba. Bilbao van.
    225 - Persians switch to monarchy. Mongols pay 50g to declare war on Greece. Rodrigo, Vigo, Pamplona, Barcelona settler. Mono>Republic.
    200 - Salzburg founded. 25g tribute from Rome. Mongols have -22g somehow. 50g from Persia. Bergen, Venice founded. Disorder in Cremona, Issus. Avila, Salamanca, Valencia(disbands to free spice at Madrid) settler. Granada van.
    175 - Milan, Ghent, Pisa, Dublin founded. Hut>Republic. Researching Iron Working, I can get that from somebody and the other choices were not good. Calatrava settler. Rodrigo, Uppsala, Seville disorder. Madrid van.
    150 - Miscounted caravan need, 100 shields to Mike's. Toronto, Melbourne founded. Hut>25g. Rome and Japan declare war rather than pay tribute. Disorder in Salamis, Crete, Genoa, Cunaxa, Cartagena, Calatrava, Oviedo, Vigo, Barcelona, Madrid. Santander settler.
    125 - Crusader, elephant, Milan, Republic lost in Roman counteroffensive. Disorder in Verona, Avila. Malaga, Saragossa van. Uppsala settler.
    100 - Neapolis+13g captured. Gave Republic, peace, seafaring to Greece, building relationship to trade for iron working. 50g from Persia. Seville van.
    75 - Sydney founded. Valencia recreated. Hut>NON crusader. Disorder in Prague, Hamburg, Lisbon, Capua, Cannae, Burgos, Salamanca. Burgos settler.
    50 - Pompeii destroyed. Romans abandon GL. 2 crusaders lost in counterattacks. Turin, Naples, Leon, Cordoba settler. Toledo van. Madrid builds Mike's.
    25 - Antium captured+37g+granary. Cease fire given, Rome is down to 4 cities and I can use some time to reposition troops. Gave Medicine to Greeks, wouldn't give poly or mono. Hut>crusader. Milan recreated. Toledo2 founded. Salamis, Cremona settler.
    1AD - Cordoba2 founded. Hut>tribe Valencia2 on island 4.

    1 AD status - 53 cities. 15+39 settlers, 15 warriors, 4 elephant, 6+5 crusaders, 2 trireme, 4+8 caravans. 0 upkeep, 91 income, 38 beakers, 18 turn discoveries. 21 advances. 1.6m citizens. 5 wonders all in Madrid, pyr HG MPE colossus mike's. No trade yet.
     
  19. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Typically I wait till after certain points in game time when I prepare a status snap shot to post a log. But due to haleewud's question I decided to post this log now. haleewud, I have been regularly giving all my techs save 0-2 to Mongols. Your tech cost is extremely higher than mine and suggests that you are holding back quite a few techs from Mongols. The log should answer your other questions and more.

    +1010 Steam Engine -> Fundamentalism. Domestic deliveries for 162, 120, 126.
    +1020 Fundamentalism -> Leadership. Domestic deliveries for 145. Foreign deliveries for 147, 168. Kharg and Aussie5 founded. 100g from hut. Tech bombed Mongols. T1L3S6
    +1030 Leadership -> Tactics -> Amphibious Warfare. Domestic deliveries for 62, 88, 66, 64, 60, 165, 58, 48, 156, 114. Babol and Aussie6 founded. T3L3S4
    +1040 Amphibious Warfare -> Railroad. Domestic deliveries for 174, 84, 124. Foreign deliveries for 246.
    +1050 First ever barbarian uprising happens on island 4 with 2 elephants. Railroad -> Industrialization. Domestic deliveries for 156. Foreign deliveries for 192. 100g from hut.
    +1060 Barbarians take Ahvaz and I lose a distant explorer. Industrialization -> Corporation. Domestic deliveries for 112. Rasht founded. 50g from hut.
    +1070 Corporation -> Genetic Engineering. Domestic deliveries for 104. Foreign deliveries for 110, 38, 218, 186, 590, 242. Roman Veii subverted for 2x1600g. Got Pyramids, 164g, three soldiers, a settler, and two structures. T1L3S6
    +1080 Genetic Engineering -> Steel -> Machine Tools. Domestic deliveries for 264, 172. Foreign deliveries for 260, 156, 105, 186. T3L3S4
    +1090 Machine Tools -> Refining. Cure for Cancer built. Domestic deliveries for 132, 80. Foreign deliveries for 44, 182. 100g from hut. 7 barbarian knights from hut kill my van. Anzali founded.
    +1100 Refining -> Combustion. Domestic deliveries for 92, 206, 342. Kerman and Sirjan founded. T2L3S5
    +1110 Combustion -> Automobile -> Electronics. Domestic deliveries for 170, 246, 187, 126. Foreign deliveries for 197, 378, 79, 157, 158. Fresh destroyer sinks approaching barbarian frigate. Roman Neapolis subverted for 2x967 to clear my path for expansion. Got 192g, a soldier, and 4 structures.
    +1120 Electronics -> Mass Production -> Miniaturization. Domestic deliveries for 125, 98, 134, 106, 302, 206, 410. Foreign deliveries for 118, 164. Rudbar founded. Ahvaz bribed back from barbarians for 26g. T1L3S6
    +1130 Miniaturization -> Recycling -> Computers. Newton built. T3L3S4. Spahan, Canal, Kermanshah, and Abadan founded. Domestic deliveries for 340. Foreign deliveries for 698. 100g from hut.
    +1140 Computers -> Nuclear Fission -> Nuclear Power. SETI built. Madrid builds Superhighways and is producing a whopping 177 arrows. I do not believe I have ever seen this many arrows in a city before. At 100% science this would be 1728 beakers (and Madrid is still growing) . My tech cost is 1680. Oil to Madrid for 1120. Domestic deliveries for 176, 136, 290. Amol founded. T1L3S6
    +1150 Nuclear Power -> Communism -> Espionage -> Mobile Warfare. Domestic deliveries for 540, 450, 206. Foreign deliveries for 2x260, 222. Khorramshahr and Lahijan founded.
    +1160 Mobile Warfare -> Robotics -> Guerrilla warfare -> Laser. Domestic deliveries for 122, 60. Foreign deliveries for 2x834, 172. Roman Pompeii subverted for 2x332g.
    +1170 Laser -> Labor Union -> Flight -> Radio. Aussie7, Andimeshk, and Tarsus founded. Domestic deliveries for 64, 130, 23, 44, 69, 95, 82. Foreign deliveries for 46, 143, 106, 130, 44, 35, 158, 86, 28, 44, 84. T3L3S4
    +1180 Radio -> Advanced Flight -> Rocketry. Roman embassy established. Domestic deliveries for 331 (Uranium), 226, 132, 118, 82, 80, 154. Foreign deliveries for 160, 110, 158, 200. Saari founded.
    +1190 Rocketry -> Combined Arms -> Space Flight. Domestic deliveries for 47, 94, 56, 87, 227. Foreign deliveries for 96. Sanandaj, Brujerd, and Tus founded. Rifleman from hut.
    +1200 Space Flight -> Environmentalism. Domestic deliveries for 184, 216, 90. Amirkola, Fooman, Izeh, Neryriz, and Naayin founded. 100g from hut.
     
  20. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    This is a very interesting tactic; one that I have often thought about but seldom practiced. Did you eventually disband those cities? What is your goal (early landing, early conquest, high score)?

    In my game I built Toledo and Valencia close enough to Madrid so each could access one of the spice but Toledo shared only 2 tiles with Madrid and Valencia 4 (plus 2 more with Seville). Thus all 3 spice were in use in my game as well and when Madrid grew it took them all under its radius. The river allowed me to place these cities that far without losing as many turns as I would otherwise.
     

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