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GOTM 119 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Inkerman, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. mackerel

    mackerel Chieftain

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    I've only played to 1AD. Valencia has been moved, Toledo will be moved shortly. I'm still not sure this was a brilliant plan, but moving the cities hasn't been a very difficult problem since they never got over size 3.
     
  2. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    Thanks for the log. You had a pretty impressive (at least to me) 20 turns. Here is my status at +980.

    Status at +980 (Communism was discovered in +1000, making Marco's obsolete)
    Population: 20.0M; Cities: 42; Trade routes: 5D37; Government: Democracy
    Gold: 677 Cost per turn: 92; Total advances: 54; Production: 290; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Hanging Gardens, LH, Marco, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Leo, Copernicus, Magellan, Bach, Newton's, Darwin's, Statue of Liberty
    Units: 22 Engineers (1 None), 7 Rifleman, 4 Crusaders, 15 Transports, 2 Diplomats, 15 Freight
    Roman: 8 cities, 27 techs, 474g; Great Library
    Japanese: 8 cities, 25 techs, 364g; War with Persians; Pyramids
    French: 5 cities, 32 techs, 207g
    Persian: 6 cities, 27 techs, 469g; War with Japanese
    Greek: 8 cities, 23 techs, 614g; Great Wall
    Mongol: 9 cities, 29 techs, 1156g; Sun Tzu's

    So it looks like in a couple of ways I was ahead at this point. You had more cities and population, but I had more advances and Wonders.

    But in the next 20 turns, I fell way behind. If I read your log correctly you made 34 advances in the 20 turns. It also looks like you founded 24 new cities.

    In my 21 turns, I only made 14 advances and founded 13 cities (I also took over 4 Japanese and 6 Roman cities).

    I don't think I gave the Mongols any tech during this time period. They only had 32 techs by +1200. I had 68 in +1200. My tech cost was 2691. I think my T/L/S was 0/6/4 during all of these turns.
     
  3. mackerel

    mackerel Chieftain

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    20 - Verona, Genoa, Issus, Rodrigo, Oviedo, Avila, Valladolid settler. Malaga, Bilbao, Barcelona, Salamanca, Seville van. Salamanca2, Barcelona2 founded. Crete, Cunaxa settler.
    40 - Valladolid2, Saragossa2, Cadiz2 founded. Hut>crusader. Give philosophy, peace, seafaring to Japan, no tribute. Rome becomes a republic. Cartagena, Cadiz, Toledo settler. Granada disorder, elvis assists.
    60 - Bilbao2, Granada2, Malaga2, Pamplona2, Vigo2, Avila2 founded. Peace with Greece, gave poly, didn't get iron working.. Starting to see black hats at 64 cities. Cannae, Santander, Pamplona settler. Burgos disorder.
    80 - Rome goaded to war, Veii+33g taken, 150g accepted for cease fire. Leon2 founded. Pisa, Turin, Calatrava settler. Salzburg disorder. Granada van.
    100 - Burgos2 founded. Dublin, Ghent, Venice, Bergen, Toledo settler. Hamburg, Lisbon disorder. Malaga, Saragossa van.
    120 - Melbourne disorder. Prague, Burgos, Cordoba settler. Seville, Madrid van. Iron Working>Banking.
    140 - Oviedo2 founded. Hut>Nomads. Tax 3.0.7, 49g/turn 7t/d. Capua disorder. Rodrigo, Avila, Uppsala settler. Madrid builds Shakespeare's Theatre.
    160 - Santander2 founded. 100g tribute from Persia. Japan offers permanent peace treaty, declares war when I demand tribute. Mongols and Greeks refuse tribute. Milan disorder. Valencia, Salzburg, Cremona, Naples, Valladolid settler.
    180 - Rodrigo2 founded. Rome isn't cooperating with the goading, so I break the cease fire. Rome+7g captured. Cumae bought for 216+13+barracks+settler+phalanx. Broke treaty with similarly uncooperative mongols, lost one crusader but Bokhara is ripe for the picking next turn. Disorder in Sydney. Toronto, Salamis, Verona, Cunaxa, Issus, Antium settler.
    200 - Calatrava2 founded. Revolution! Disorder in Burgos2, Neapolis, Avila, Pamplona. Melbourne, Cartagena settler. Welcome to the Republic.
    220 - Bokhara captured+22g, cease fire accepted since the mongol invasion force is down to one elephant that was in the red before it captured Bokhara. Cartagena2, Naples2, Issus2, Cunaxa2, Cremona2, Cannae2, Capua2 founded. Sydney, Toledo(disbanded) settler. Burgos disorder. Malaga, Bilbao, Barcelona, Salamanca van.
    240 - Pisae bribed for 162x2, 20g refund+legion. Roman civilization destroyed, respawn as Celts. Turin2 founded. Banking>Construction. Disorder in Vigo.
    260 - Gave republic, banking, iron working, medicine to France, failed to get construction. Hut>barbs. Genoa2, Crete2, Verona2 founded. Venice, Capua, Pamplona, Malaga, Salamanca disorder. Saragossa, Seville van. Veii settler.
    280 - Salamis2, Lisbon2 founded. Gave bronze, peace, iron, monarchy, banking, pottery to Celts, got map. Bilbao2, Toronto, Salzburg, Lisbon, Naples, Antium disorder. Hamburg, Burgos, Bokhara settler. Madrid van.
    300 - Tribe>Hamburg2. Prague2, Salzburg2 founded. Construction>Wheel. Burgos2, Toledo2, Hamburg, Turin, Cremona, Bilbao disorder. Granada2, Barcelona2, Valencia2, Cordoba2 settler. Milan, Pisa, Santander, Oviedo van.
    320 - Hut>Wheel>Math. Bergen2 founded. Leon2, Milan disorder. Pamplona2, Cumae settler. Genoa, Vigo, Pamplona van.
    340 - Venice2, Milan2, Ghent2, Pisa2, Dublin2 founded. Mongols learn Math. Malaga2, Valencia, Melbourne, Pisa, Pisae, Crete, Genoa, Neapolis, Avila, Cadiz disorder. Salamanca2 settler. Math>Astronomy. Avila, Malaga van.
    360 - It seems to be time to mess with the luxury rate, 1.3.6 gives 47g/t, 4 turn advances, and should WLTPD in 27 cities, leaving 5 size 3 cities unable to celebrate due to food shortage or lack of roads. Toronto2, Melbourne2 founded. Avila2, Leon, Veii disorder.
    380 - Sydney2, Madrid3, Seville3, Toledo3 founded. Peace with Japan. I'll stop reporting vans, settlers, and disorders now. They're still happening.
    400 - Cordoba3 founded. Astronomy>Navigation. 6m citizens.
    420 - Valencia3, Salamanca3 founded. Hut>NON legion. Madrid builds Copernicus.
    440 - Barcelona3, Valladolid3, Saragossa3 founded. Navigation>Engineering. 7m citizens.
    460 - Cadiz3 founded. Hut>University. Gave construction, wheel, warrior code, republic, university to Mongols. Updated map. Science cost 900.
    480 - Madrid aqueduct. Hut>Physics, legion. Bilbao3 founded. French switch to Monarchy.
    500 - Eng>Magnetism. Seville builds Magellan. 8m citizens.

    500 AD status - 110 cities, Greeks have the next most with 5. 33+43 settlers, 2 warriors (1 exploring the pole, one keeping the mongols from a free conquest), 2 legion from huts, 4 elephant, 7 crusader, 15 trireme(+19 caravel in production), 2 dip, 19+40 caravans. 4 upkeep, 58 income, 381 beakers. 3 turn discoveries, 31 advances. 8m citizens. 8 wonders.
    Celts: 1 city, 17 tech, republic.
    Japan: 3 cities, 17 tech, republic, researching nothing.
    French: 1 city, 21 tech, monarchy.
    Persia: 5 cities, 15 tech, monarchy.
    Greece: 5 cities, 22 tech, republic.
    Mongols: 4 cities, 16 tech, despotism despite having republic.

    I was going for peaceful expansionism but Rome got in the way. The transition to republic was not as smooth as it could have been, and the treasury at 500AD is weaker than I'd like, but gold has been a necessary sacrifice to get technology where I want it to be. I should have a straight tech path to magnetism>invention>democracy>gunpowder>explosives within 15 turns, eliminating corruption and unhappiness while allowing even more rapid expansion. The demands of the republic have forced my settlers to build roads instead of pushing ever outward. Offshore trading opportunities are sparse as France and Celts have only one city each.
     
  4. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I'm stunned, this is VERY fast... what was your take on expansion? You did not seem to have super-great hut luck... how many shields your cities built on spice were able to produce?
     
  5. mackerel

    mackerel Chieftain

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    I just kept asking myself, what would Peaster do? I'm about 500 years late for sending out invasion colonies and probably shouldn't have switched out of monarchy at all, but otherwise that was the goal. I set the core cities to producing caravans for the wonders, everything else on settlers and filling every available space. I haven't hunted for huts much at all, just sent out ships with invasion forces (2 settlers each). Rome got in the way of peaceful expansion so they got overrun, and the chain of settlers (and leftover Roman invasion force) moved onward toward Japan. Persia and Mongolia are being peacefully colonized, as I don't see the point of starting aggression until I'm ready to wipe them out.

    A city built on spice produces 2 food, 1 shield, 5 trade in Despotism, 3+1+6 in Monarchy, 3+1+7 in Democracy.
    Spice with no city gives 2+0+4, 3+0+5, and 3+0+6 in those same governments, with the difference of course being from lack of road and the 1-shield city square minimum.
     
  6. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    So you're going for ICS and EC? That explains a lot of stuff.
     
  7. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Tech tree is finished. Apollo is in progress and will be ready in 2-4 turns. Persians and Romans declared war. Romans were wiped out in one turn. Persians only city will be taken next turn.

    +1210 Environmentalism -> Plastics -> Superconductor. Domestic deliveries for 323, 112. Foreign deliveries for 212. 100g from hut.
    +1220 Superconductor -> Fusion Power -> Stealth. Domestic deliveries for 100, 51, 102. Gordium, Shahi, and Tabas founded.
    +1230 Stealth -> Future Tech 1. 50g, 100g from huts. Domestic deliveries for 62, 150, 115, 155. Foreign deliveries for 197, 218. Khorramabad founded. Persians and Romans declare war when I demand they withdraw troops. One Roman settler killed.
    +1240 Roman Knight killed in attack on Veii. Future Tech 1 -> 2 -> 3. Adam Smith built. Domestic deliveries for 262, 144, 84. Mahabad and Mashhad founded. Tank easily kills 2 defenders of Rome and takes the city for 248 and city walls! Senate immediately hands peace to Romans. Roman Cumae subverted for 2x534. Spy turned vet. Roman Antium subverted for 2x568. Roman civilization destroyed.
    +1250 Future Tech 3 -> 4 -> 5. Domestic deliveries for 336, 260. Foreign deliveries for 186, 160, 366. Astara, Chalus, and Ghuchan founded. Advanced tribe founds Bactra of size 3 with 3 structures. Stealth fighter kills two Persian units.

    Status at +1250
    Population: 95.3M; Cities: 133; Trade routes: 234D22F; Government: Democracy
    Gold: 25; Cost per turn: 290; Total advances: all+4FT; Production: 1036; 3 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Marco, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Leo, King Richard's, Copernicus, Magellan, Bach, Newton, Adam Smith, Cure, SETI
    Units: 1 Settler, 63 Engineers (1 None), 1 Archer, 9 Rifleman, 1 Cavalry, 2 Armor, 1 Stealth Fighter, 1 Frigate, 1 Destroyer, 15 Transport, 1 Diplomats, 1 Spy, 12 Freight, 2 Explorer
    Celt: no contact
    Japanese: no embassy; Lighthouse
    French: no embassy
    Persian: no embassy;
    Greek: no embassy
    Mongol: no embassy
     
  8. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    Here is my log from 500 to 740 AD.

    Date Notes

    Interturn: Greeks take Mongol city of Tabriz, take Philosophy. Germans develop Banking.

    520 AD: Order restored in Grenade as the city grew. T1L5S4. Germans: Update maps. Pop hut: 50g. Japs: Same as before. Pop hut: 25g.

    Interturn: Barb caravel near Calatrava. Cease-fire between Japs and Greeks. Move in a Pikemen and a Warrior.

    540 AD: Rush a crusader in Calatrava. Disembark 2 Vet crusaders near Persian capitol of Persépolis: Crusaders kill an Archer and a Warrior. No defenders left. Build Grenade II at (134, 36) Madrid is size 12: T2L3S5. Build Malaga II at (159, 67) Japs: Same as before. One of my crusaders stepped next to a Jap Archer...

    Interturn: Unknown unit attacks my Crusader outside of Persépolis and dies. My crusader is almost dead, Persépolis undefended again... with a Persian Phalanx that could also have moved in. Stupid AI. Greeks develop CoL. Barbs land near Calatrava (Legion)

    560 AD: Civil disorder in Séville II. Discover Theology: University is next. Population exceeds 8 million citizens. Switch Séville from Mag’s to Bach’s: Rush Bach’s for 132g. Storm Persépolis for 50g+2 citizens. Japs: Same as before. Pop hut: Crusader. Crush barbs with Calatrava crusader.

    Interturn: Greeks abandon Oracle. Mongol government overthrown.

    580 AD: Séville builds JSB, starts Mag’s. T3L2S5. 2 vans in Séville: 300s left. Accidentally deliver Naples salt (not the Roman Naples) for a trade route to Séville (nd) 11g. So... yeah. And a +1 trade route. 5 more vans in Séville: 50s left for Mag’s. Build Pampelune II at (159, 11) Build Vigo II at (150, 50) Discover Jap city of Izumo on island 17.

    Interturn: Mongolia becomes a republic. Japs ask us to leave Izumo.

    600 AD: Hail Japs: Same as before. Romans: Ask them to attack Japs. They want 50g: No. (I wanted to pay tech) Update maps. Pop hut: Barbs. Leave Izumo, go near Nara. Build Avila II at (186, 80) Dip near Séville II, no way to stop it.

    Interturn: Persian dip wants to talk, turned down but Senate signs a peace treaty behind my back. Japs start GL. Japs ask us to leave Nara.

    620 AD: Discover University, start Sanitation. Hail Japs: Same as before. Rush a university in Madrid. Pop hut: Nomads. Romans: They withdraw troops. Germans: Update maps. Pop hut: Nomads.

    Interturn: Japs start GW and abandon GL.

    640 AD: Madrid university. Japs: Same as before. Things need to move... Build Leon II at (142, 68) Build Burgos II at (161, 73)

    Interturn: Japs order us to leave Nara. I refuse and take the rep hit, that means WAR! The government falls?!? I thought that only happened in Democracy, not in Republic! Oh well, lessons learned. Next oedo year is 700 AD. 3 turns of Anarchy... ouch. Japs abandon and restart the GW. Jap archer kills my Elephant.

    660 AD: T0L6S4. Persians: Declare WAR when I ask tribute. Crusader kills Jap archer in Kyoto. Position 2 Crusaders near Pasargades. Crusader kills Jap Phalanx in the field. Ele kills Warrior in Kyoto: Sun Tzu’d vet. Kill another Warrior in Kyoto. Kyoto sacked for 5g. Jap government overthrown as capital is razed: Emissary turned down. Rep is Honorable. Ele attacks fortified Phalanx on the field, but dies? Invasion force down to only 4 units... Kill Jap Phalanx in Izumo: Izumo stormed for 9g+citizen. Greeks: 150g. Mongols: 50g. Build Oviedo II at (35, 9) Pop hut: Nomads.

    Interturn: Roman government overthrown. The Japs are in despotism. Germans develop Philosophy.

    680 AD: Build Santander II at (110, 82) Kill a Persian Legion in Pasargades: Pasargades sacked for 18g. Turn down a Jap emissary. Crusader kills wounded Jap Phalanx: Wounded Jap archer kills my elephant. I don’t like this... Greeks: 200g. Attack Jap Ele with a Horsemen, horsemen dies. I’m starting to be really suspicious. Hut: AT (Ciudad Rodrigo2) at (49, 13)

    Interturn: Persian dip near Séville II.

    700 AD: Monarchy established. Kill wounded Jap archer. Accidentaly sign cease-fire with Persians (I wanted tribute) Mongols: 50g. Republic re-established, T2L2S6. Pop hut: 50g. Build Calatrava II at (111, 89) Build Cartagène II at (182, 86)

    720 AD: Population exceeds 9 million citizens. Civ2 crash... thank god there’s an autosave feature. A bit suprising considering the game was released in 1996. Hut: Theory of Gravity. That was a while for a new tech from a hut. Civ2 crash AGAIN?!? It happened while doint the exact same thing! Nevermind the hut result... got barbs instead. Oh, joy.

    740 AD: Discover Sanitation: start Chemistry. Séville builds Magellan’s. Rush a sewer in Madrid. Build Naples II at (104, 92) Build Issos II at (138, 72) Pop hut: Crusader.

    Status at 740 AD:

    Population: 9.13M Cities: 78 Trade routes: 1D0F Government: Republic
    Gold: 308 Cost per turn: 50 Total advances: 34 Production: 348MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Pyramids, HG, Marco, LH, Sun Tzu, Mikes, Cope, Shakes, Mags, JSB.
    Units: 47 Settlers, 1 Warrior, 1 Phalanx, 1 Legion, 5 Pikemen, 7 Horsemen, 2 Elephants, 9 Crusaders, 12 Triremes, 1 dip, 13 vans.
    Romans: 1 city, 23 techs. Despo, peace, 18g.
    Japanese: 6 cities, 23 techs. Despo, war, 153g. They have Colossus. Currently building GW
    Germans: 1 city, 19 techs. Repu, peace, 23g. Currently building GL
    Vikings: Destroyed by me
    Persia: 1 city, 12 techs. Despo, cease-fire, 25g.
    Greeks: 8 cities, 16 techs. Despo, peace, 44g.
    Mongolia: 4 cities, 22 techs. Republic, peace, 24g.

    I think it’s obvious that my limits are showing. I still have much to learn, especially when it comes to adjusting to unusual maps. But what I still don't understand is that my government fell when I renounced the peace treaty with the Japanese. Playing GOTM 116 (I did not submitted the game) I renounced a peace treaty with the Egyptians while under Republic, but my government did not fell even if my rep was really bad (during this game, I had a spotless rep before taking the rep hit) Also, that happened (under GOTM 116) at 540 AD, if it has any relevance.
     
  9. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Jokemaster,

    As far as I can recall, the government always fails when you renounce a treaty. Maybe in Republic there is a small chance that it does not and that is what you observed in GOTM 116.

    Republic is one of my least favorite forms of government in Civ2 unless I am playing OCC (in which case it is almost as good as democracy). It is definitely not meant for a war monger. If I want to wage war I stay in Monarchy till I get a chance to switch to Communism or Fundamentalism. When there is a great need for arrows or when I am trying to end the game before those other forms of government become available, I try celebrating Monarchy. Any city that celebrates under Monarchy will get the extra arrows just like a republic. I concentrate my trade on those cities that are celebrating and thus get the benefit of the arrows without the extra costs of Republic.
     
  10. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    So who wants to explain this? When I launched my spaceship and the Mongols were eliminated it was well after 1500AD. I moaned about the stupid English and resigned myself to only getting 1 tech per turn for the reset of the game. So I finished the next turn. While I was processing the cities one of my cities happened to produce a SALT truck. I reviewed the Supply/Demand and noticed only 1 city demands SALT. It was Delhi (Indians).

    So somehow, even though it was well after 1500 AD, the Indians respawned.

    I thought 1500 AD was the cut-off. Has anyone ever seen this before?
     
  11. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Regarding haleewud's question about a respawn after 1500, I had that too. (Keen readers may recall that my slow play meant I had all the original others at 1500, so I had plenty of chance to see it. I guess that for many contributors their King level games rarely last this long!)

    I suggest it may be that the cutoff date changes at king level. In this case what happens at 1500 A.D. at Emperor/Deity, perhaps happens at 1750 A.D. at King level. That would be I think 200 turns from the end in both cases.

    It is not the same (moving in the other direction in fact) but earlier in this thread Jokemaster made a good case for the change of AI attitude that normally happens at 1750 at Deity happening at 1500 at the King level of this game. In that case 200 turns in.

    Inkerman.
     
  12. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I decided not to keep a log this time again, but some info from my saves

    2000BC:
    Population: 0.09M Cities: 5 Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 15g Cost per turn: 0 Total advances: 10 Production: 15MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: -
    Units: 1 Settlers, 1 Warrior

    1000 BC
    Population: 0.22M Cities: 12 Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 1g Cost per turn: 0 Total advances: 13 Production: 36MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: -
    Units: 4 Settlers, 2 Warrior, 1, 2 vans.

    20 AD
    Population: 1.65M Cities: 34 Government: Republic
    Gold: 17 Cost per turn: 2 Total advances: 25 Production: 108MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: HG, Marco, Colossus.
    Units: 11 Settlers, 1 Warrior, 1 Chariot, 5 Elephants, 2Triremes.

    I met the Vikings early but had some trouble defeating them quickly. After Polytheism it became a lot easier.

    My game is just after 1750 AD and I noticed after 1500 BC (but before 1750 BC) still respawns.
    I will post more soon.
     
  13. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    As I have said before, I do not believe the conditions for respawns are fully understood. They are generally believed to stop after 1500, but not all the time. This is one of the few areas that the Apolyton researchers never figured out.
     
  14. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Magic,

    How are you planing to win: Spaceship or conquest?

    It is interesting that you expanded very fast, faster than most of us (Inkerman, Jokemaster, haleewud, and me) and on par with mackerel and Peaster up to -1000 but then for some reason you slowed down by +1.

    I played to +1300 last night. Apollo was built in +1290 and the space race started in +1300.
     
  15. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    The exact same thing happened to me after 1500 AD... 9 times. The last time any civ respawned was in 1535 AD.
     
  16. mackerel

    mackerel Chieftain

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    I have broken my game.. I delivered over 30000g in freight in one turn (not all at once, I never went over 20000g in the bank), and the science progress bar has gone away. No advances in the next two turns, instead of the expected 2-3 per turn. The condition seems to be permanent, so I'm in need of advice. Does anybody know a way to make science happen again, or should I settle for an easy conquest victory?
     
  17. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I'm pretty sure that when you deliver for more or less 32000 beakers and don't discover an advance, the beaker box ''overflows'' and goes in the negative 32000 beakers, so you'll need to generate 32000 more beakers to break even again at zero. It's because of programming limitations, I'm pretty sure it's because of the program being written in 16-bit.
     
  18. mackerel

    mackerel Chieftain

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    Thanks Joker, I blitzed trade again and recovered the science bar, ended up losing only two turns worth of tech progress.
     
  19. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Jokemaster is right about what happened. You should be careful about how much you deliver in a turn.

    My returns are typically well below 1000. Only high quality demanded goods to or from Madrid produce returns above 1000 and then barely so. You must have delivered close to 100 vans for that.
     
  20. mackerel

    mackerel Chieftain

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    It's been a memorable lesson. I didn't count the vans but many of them were in the 500-1000 range, as Madrid demanded oil and silk. I was careful not to overflow the gold counter (spent 10k, earned 20k, spent 19k) but forgot science worked the same way.
     

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