GOTM 22 First Spoiler

[spacemanmf]

Having played the test game (which was invaluable), I knew that an ultra cautious start was necessary. So, warrior x2 to start with, not exploring too much, researching hunting then archery to get some archers for defence. Then went for a worker to hook up the gold before archers and a settler, plus a second worker. Then researched BW and IW, inevitably.

Settled SW and was distressed to see copper outside my BFC (but less so when I realised that copper was useless for praets). Still, I hooked it up (briefly) to get a couple of axes, one of which was used to escort my settler, which settled SE of the iron W of the capital (no concessions for this game!), which to date, I have just about managed to keep control of - harder has been maintaining the road link between capital and second city.

It's been very much a game of cat and mouse. First the barbarian hordes arrived, then wave after wave of pesky pillaging AIs. I've not really had the opportunity to go on the attack - all my units have been needed for defence.

I have lost 12 units, but still have 11 units left, having killed 90 of the bleeders. My land is actually currently free of enemy units, and I am building praet-praet-praet..., but I can foresee the situation soon whereby the AIs have longbows and catapults and horse archers and maces and crossbows and my end will be nigh. I just wish the AIs would attack each other occasionally in AW games.

Still it's been fun and, reading the earlier posts, I seem to have done relatively well!

Famous last words... that was 20AD or so, at 500AD I have lost my iron city after a relentless wave of attacks. I've now killed 182 units but lost 22. I need metal! It's taken me an age to research Construction now that my gold has been pillaged. In short, it's not looking good.

 

[Perugia]

I've had a very similar game to many of the survivors but an still alive at 470AD and have construction, copper, ivory & 3 cities.

I settled 1 SW after the warrior found the gold and cautiously researched to archery, AH, IW then up to construction. Built warriors while still at size 1 then started a barracks for a few turns before switching to worker at size 2.

Elizabeths archer headed for an undefended Rome but gave up once I got a warrior there.

Managed to develop the area around Rome with guerilla archers doing a good job of defending the pigs and gold for a long time while the copper was hooked up. Settled Antium on the hill 2N of the copper with a view to isolating Monty from the other AI and taking his iron.

I never managed to take the war to the AI as I wanted as every time I had a stack of CR axes they had augment home defense (usually by occupying forests & jungles and winning in defense). The other trick I used was to use them to attack the AI in cities not to take the cities per se but just to destroy units. As soon as the AI launched a counterattack I fled to the forest.

Eventually my improvements West of Rome became untenable as that is the direction most of the AI are approaching from and targeting Rome. My Guerillas fell back into Rome and started on the City Garison promotions to augment their Guerilla II. Several times the roads from Rome have been cut but Antium and Nottingham have water trade routes to the Ivory.

Workers are keeping up rebuilding the copper mine every time it get's pillaged but the cows have not been pillaged much. Now I have ivory I'm not worried about losing the copper for a few turns and switch to elephants. The ivory is now nicely protected by 3 cities (or so I'm trying to convince myself!).

I have not managed to get iron despite having a stack of CR axes. The plan was to take Monty's to the north but the barbs have promoted his archers and I've been waiting for catapults/elephants to soften them up and ensure I keep the city. I expedited construction this by working gold, 2 libraries and some cottages for much of the game.

Antium has been attacked quite a bit mostly by Qin and Monty but not so severely as Rome which is just as well as it only has 20% culture (this is the main reason I built the second library there. As a result I have some highly promoted archers there.

One problem I have had is a shortage of medics. These are dying too often when my cities come under attack instead of guerilla/city garrison units. I thin the medics might be better off not entrenching to avoid this.

Likewise I've had highly promoted axes defending instead of archers and have lost a few this way (someone else had this problem with Praets). Now I'm not leaving them in cities or when I do not fortifying them.

I keep taking Nottingham (Ivory and Horses) with a view to chopping units out there before razing it (I don't want to keep it long term as its not on a hill) but my CR promoted units have had to abandon the city 4 times and fall back to the hills/forests when Monty's HA's show up as they have no chance of defending in grassland.

Now I have elephants I'll try and hold Nottingham by a more active defence and try and grab iron. I expect it's only a matter of time though until the inevitable.

 

[da_Vinci]

One problem I have had is a shortage of medics. These are dying too often when my cities come under attack instead of guerilla/city garrison units. I thin the medics might be better off not entrenching to avoid this.

Likewise I've had highly promoted axes defending instead of archers and have lost a few this way (someone else had this problem with Praets). Now I'm not leaving them in cities or when I do not fortifying them.

Did you build any walls? I had never built a wall in single player games (not ususally under attack that early, and no use after GPowder), but had to when I took over in a pitboss game and was on the defensive pre GPowder. An instant defensive bonus of 50%, and slower bombard reduction can be very valuable if early era defense in needed.

In my second try (post #80 here) I walled my two non-captital cities (see screenshot) and that has limited losses in city defense considerably.

dV

 

[Kennigit]

Lost embarissingly probably around turn 14 to english archer. My starting warrior went SWish to the tundra (to copper hill from maps) and fortified to heal from a wolf. Sad thing was that I did build a warrior first, but I attacked Monty's scout with it. If I had built 2nd warrior using hills for 2 production or not killed that scout (which put the archer 1 square ahead of me), I would have survived (some). I didn't save it, so no submission.

 

[dalamb]

Now the game does have an RNG system that seems to string several high "odds" losses together in succession, and that can be pretty frustrating. But I suspect that over the long run, the combat results match the probabilities ... but that does not guarantee any particular result in any one combat.

Historically many random number generators haven't been as random as they should be -- with things like too high a correlation between successive results, once you reduct the 32-bit number they produce down to some specific range like 1-100. I know nothing about the specifics of the one in Civ.

Anyway, maybe settling your second city not 2 tiles North of copper but on the copper would have been better. That's usually a bad move, but in this game it would have helped you to have to defend less roads.

Settling on a resource, to defend it better, is something I never thought of before; usually it would be too big a production hit, but in this game mere access to resources is a big deal.

I tried Aventurer but even so quit fairly early after making too many stupid mistakes; I have to learn to count to 10 before exiting when I get furious at myself (or at least saving a game so I could restart from that point). I replayed and got to about 100bc, with reasonable luck, but of course that's cheating (when you know where the good resources are going to be).

One thing I did learn, though, was how valuable rivers can be in this sort of game, because they can't be pillaged (just cut by cultural expansion). So I think that putting Antium 1E of the bronze N of Rome connects the two rivers, and putting a city on top of the iron up north near Monty should finish the connection to Rome. If you keep Nottingham you similarly get access to its horses. And somebody's suggestion about the stone to the SW -- faster walls might make a big difference!

I never got far enough to see the iron near London, but suspect that it eventually can become a (more) secure source.

If I get the energy I may try another follow-up game with these ideas, but I finally broke down and bought BTS, so another GOTM022 agony is not high on my list of things to do.

 

[Perugia]

da_Vinci

You raise a good point about walls. In this variant they would have been very helpful in city defense by non-city defence trained units allowing more flexibility. I'll give it a go next time. If I restart this game I'll settle the stone hill in the SE.

I also regret chopping most of the forests around my cities as these give unpillagable production. In future AW games I'll be on the look out for FP + forest locations with a hill to settle on.

 

[Jove]

I had some luck with walls. If hordes of units are going to attack one target, might as well. However, one time when Rome's defenses had been bombarded near or down to 0% I built a wall and got no defensive bonus. Anyone ever see that before?

 

[da_Vinci]

I had some luck with walls. If hordes of units are going to attack one target, might as well. However, one time when Rome's defenses had been bombarded near or down to 0% I built a wall and got no defensive bonus. Anyone ever see that before?

Before or after gunpowder?

dV

 

[Jove]

The units at least were before gunpowder.

 

[da_Vinci]

The units at least were before gunpowder.

In that case, I think it might be programmed in: If the program remembers the recent bombard history of the city and subtracts that from the current defense bonus, then the pre-wall bombard would negate the wall bonus ... I expect that the culture bonus that was initially bombarded down was > 50%?

Better would be for the program to remember the last defensive state of the city and go forward. But since the bombard is a % each time of the original defensive bonus, maybe it was not designed to recall the last defensive state, but designed to calculate the current defensinve state from the original state and the bombard history? Which would explain how the new wall gives no bonus.

Maybe that is intentional ... if bombardment would destroy the wall, how could you in reality build it during bombardment? It is unlikely that in reality a wall could be built successfully during bombardment, so maybe that is a realistic result?

dV

 

[Jove]

Yes, it appears a new wall's strength might correspond to what percentage the city's defenses have been bombarded to instead of giving a flat +50%. Or maybe this only happens if the city's defenses are all the way to 0%, as I think Rome was in this instance. Frankly it seems a little buggy and inconsistent. Chichen Itza gives a flat % increase in every town, right?
As for realism, if the Prats can hold off the bad guys for the 20 years one turn represents I think there is time to slap up a wall.

 

[ngraner42]

Based on the time frames for Civ, movement should be nearly instantaneous, except for ZOC (which is not even modeled). I think there are many compromises for fun game play and I am ok with that.

 

[da_Vinci]

As for realism, if the Prats can hold off the bad guys for the 20 years one turn represents I think there is time to slap up a wall.

The realism point (perhaps poorly named ... consistency may be the issue) was not related to time, but to consistency in internal game play.

If bombardment removes the defensive capacity of a built wall, it ought to also be able to prevent the creation of new wall defensive capacity during a bombardment. If you can't repair it faster than it can be bombarded, then you should not be able to build it faster than the bombardment undoes that work.

But since the programming does not stop the city build, next best thing is it builds with no defensive effect.

So I guess my point is that in some sense, the lack of defense from a wall built during a bombardment is actually consistent with the gameplay design, rather than being buggy.

But that does not mean that is was not an unpleasant surprise when it turned out that way ...

dV

 

[Jove]

Yeah, you make good points. I just don't use walls often and so this was a nasty surprise. I'll live. JC, well that's another matter...

 

[civ_steve]

I haven't had much time to play CIV for the last few months, and this one looked a little too fun to miss! Besides, it was likely to be a very fast game ...

My game has been similar to many already reported. I decided the move SW to gain the extra shield and the hill defense couldn't be resisted (and it gains the Gold as well!). Settling directly West maintains the Copper in the FC, but loses the defense and the extra spt; I'd still settle on the hill.

Unlike many, I ignored Archery entirely. I researched to get AH and the ability to Pasture, then I went after BW and IW. I sent the first Warrior on a close circle, and either returned him or built my second warrior fast enough that the AI stayed out of my cultural boundary. I continued to build Warriors and used the surrounding terrain to gain lots of experience against the Barbs.

Now, I feel I really blew it with the promotions I chose. Not having played CIV much, I thought I could upgrade the Warriors to Praetorians - not so, only to Axemen! So I was taking CR promotions with my Warriors. I think I'd have done much better to take the 10% Combat bonus, followed up by a 25% Melee or Archer! Later on when I get to upgrade these Warriors to Axemen, I'd have a good unit for dealing with the AI's axes, and other units for that matter. Instead I had a bunch of CR2 and CR3 Axes that never saw a city attack.

So, Rome built Warriors and Workers, and got the Pigs, Cattle and Gold set up. Sometimes one of them would get Pillaged, but I was sure to protect my Workers so I could restore the Food quickly after the pillaging units were dealt with. Finally I learned IW, saw there was Iron to the SW, and having built a Settler, managed to move it out under 4 Warrior Escort, with Workers building the Road, and get Antium founded on the precious Iron. Saving Gold got me promotions for my Warriors, and Rome started on Praetorians.

I gradually built a force up. Barracks in Rome gave me CR1, and one battle against a Barb got it up to CR2. I think Raging Barbs really helped in this respect. England was the most pushy, so I captured Newcastle to the NE, rested a bit and built up, pushed on to York, razed another city south of York, and finally took London in 445 BC. Meanwhile, I was holding my own in the West. My experience units healed and headed West - target Khan! I managed to raze a Chinese city founded near the Stone, and another GK city just West of that in the Jungle.

Going OK, but bad news; Genghis has circled to the South with a Stack and my Iron city of Antium is under serious pressure. I manage to hold the first round, but fall to wounded units in the 2nd. Rats. I do have London's Iron connected, and it's first build was a Library (yes, I've pushed up to Writing by this time), so I still have Iron. I recapture and start to rebuild pillaged road, but I've had to bring units back from the Western front so that is now stalled. Now Monty is showing up enmasse against Newcastle (and harassing London), and China is pushing through from the NNW. At this point I could really use those Combat promoted Axes - my Praetorians are strong but not as effective as I'd like for defense, especially against AI Axes with Combat promotions.

Anyway, it's shortly after 0 AD. A wounded French Chariot managed to survive 2 attacks by wounded Praetorians of mine (80+ odds both of them), and capture an undefended Antium. My recapture has finally convinced Antium that it doesn't want to hang around anymore, so that source of Iron is disconnected. And Monty lands 2 Horse Archers on the London Iron just as he attacks Newcastle; I barely hold Newcastle, but my second Iron has just gone offline (I managed to rush Praetorians in 3 cities just before the pillaging). So I have to knock off those 2 HA's with the 2 Praets in London, reconnect the Iron (I have 2 Workers in the area), and rebuild my forces. I've saved the Gold to research Construction, so I should have that in 15 turns or so, and I'll make an attempt with Cats and Praets, but I think it's too late.

I've got a mixed force of Combat promoted Praets and CR Praets now; I really wish I'd done Combat promotions to my Warriors earlier on.

 

[plesniak]

I wouldn't think the staff should have too much to do on this one...Was this one like a joke?...or too much other stuff to do...

 

[jesusin]

I wouldn't think the staff should have too much to do on this one...Was this one like a joke?...or too much other stuff to do...

We have different views. For me, this one has been the most enjoyable GOTM since the Deity one (which I lost too).

Winning an easy game and trying to conquer all AI sooner than other people is fun. Trying to win a very difficult game is fun too. I enjoy variety a lot.

 

[Tesuji]

This was my first AW game ever. I read all the pre-game discussions which gave me a few good hints.

I settled SW after seeing the gold and built a warrior first. The other warrior explored by starting SW in a tight circle clock-wise and then East. Research was Hunting, Archery and AH first. The warrior built in the capital stayed there and it seemed enough to deter any entry into my territory early on. After building another warrior I figure the land halfway to England is too good so I gamble by building a settler next and rush it there. The two warriors stick around to receive it. In the meantime they gain some experience by staying in the woods and being attacked.

Next a few archers and another settler to get the nice spot that catches the horses, the corn and ivory. My second city builds a worker. It takes some work but I get the spot I want. Mostly archers and a few workers since then while I research my way to Iron Working.

You can imagine my cursing when I find out where the few nearest iron sources are. I had thought these three cities would be a solid foundation to get started with building a serious army.

Now I felt forced to build a fourth settler and settle near the iron on the West. But my territory is getting flooded with enemy troops. They mostly fall easy prey to my archers that built up city-defense experience but all my improvements are disappearing. And the fourth city has me really stretching too thin.

It's now 620BC and I see little hope for this game, my city to the NE has been surrounded and is about to fall. My archers have good defense promotions but I have no units to actively kill Axemen and Chariots that rampage my territory.

Note: I saw people wonder how to steal a worker. You can get lucky I suppose if you have a warrior with a double promotion to get double speed though jungle and forest. Moving through enemy forest it's possible to ambush a worker. (Not that I managed but I'm sure it's a possibility.)

This could have been an entertaining game. But I think placing the iron that far was rather cruel.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Lost embarissingly probably around turn 14 to english archer. My starting warrior went SWish to the tundra (to copper hill from maps) and fortified to heal from a wolf. Sad thing was that I did build a warrior first, but I attacked Monty's scout with it. If I had built 2nd warrior using hills for 2 production or not killed that scout (which put the archer 1 square ahead of me), I would have survived (some). I didn't save it, so no submission.

I had a very similar game.

Worker first start with warrior exploring in tight circle around Rome. Warrior barely survives a wolf attack. English archer appears and chases wounded warrior back to Rome. Game over before I research bronze working.