Jasonc
Chieftain
<deleting duplicate posting>
GOTM 24 First Spoiler
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
Jasonc
Chieftain
I considered building Canterbury where your Hastings is, but decided against it for strategic reasons. I thought that having a city that bridged the South and North Seas would be benefical during the age of sails. Only time will tell if this will be advantageous, but my current thinking is that Billy's Hastings is in a better location. Canterbury's production is not as good as it could be, and I'm not able to work the Silk in the NE. Oh well....
WoundedKnight
Warlord
- Joined
- May 28, 2002
- Messages
- 253
I mainly play Monarch games, but washed out of this one. I founded 2 religions (hinduism/judaism), engaged in an explosive settler rush, and converted my neighbors but couldn't keep my head above water given the low productivity of the northern terrain.
It's all about starting location and surrounding terrain. Which, here, is very bad.
A favorable location with good resources can make a Monarch game like a noble one. Similarly, a bad location can make it like an Emporer or Immortal game.
The two AI nations to the south have excellent resources on broad, fertile land. Both have abundant rivers with the commerce bonus and irrigation. One capital has five starting resources; the other four. There are many resources surrounding the two enemy AI capitals which are quickly taken.
In contrast, the player starts in a poor location surrounded by barren tundra and ice to the north and desert to the west. There is just a thin sliver of land nearly surrounded by water. There is not a single river of significance in the entire northern half of the continent where the player starts. Except for hill mines and plain cottages, the little land that exists is not improveable.
Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist here to do the math when you are comparing rich riverside grasslands, farmlands, and forests of the southern neighbors to the barren terrain of the north. Coast terrain (+1 food, another +1 with lighthouse, and +3 commerce for financial) cannot compete at all to improved riverside terrain with a town (+7 commerce, +1 more commerce for financial, +1 commerce for river, +1 hammer with civics, beyond the baseline 1 food/1 hammer plain or 2 food grassland base). When you add the AI bonus and the player penalties for monarch, the difference became insurmountable, at least for me.
Wonders I found to be impossible to build because the Chinese guy is industrious and churns them out like butter. Between their much more productive terrain and the baseline bonuses, I could not build a single wonder.
Early conquest is also very difficult. The only iron/copper resources are to the northwest in icy areas with virtually no productive terrain. Do you sacrifice a settler just to capture the resource when your other cities have such poor production anyway? I will be waiting to see how the early conquest wizards pull this one off.
With great difficulty, I made it as high as third place but could never pull ahead and ultimately lost (no reference to spoilers). After resigning, I replayed a couple times (realizing that I cannot submit to GOTM) and couldn't do any better.
If you could change places with either the Americans or the Chinese on the starting continent, it would be a cakewalk. As it is, it was impossible, at least for me. This would be a good map if starting locations were comparable and fair. Unfortunately, they are not. This is really an emperor or diety level challenge IMO. I hope future GOTMs will be more equitable, although there may be some educational value in seeing how others surmount these challenges.
It's all about starting location and surrounding terrain. Which, here, is very bad.
A favorable location with good resources can make a Monarch game like a noble one. Similarly, a bad location can make it like an Emporer or Immortal game.
The two AI nations to the south have excellent resources on broad, fertile land. Both have abundant rivers with the commerce bonus and irrigation. One capital has five starting resources; the other four. There are many resources surrounding the two enemy AI capitals which are quickly taken.
In contrast, the player starts in a poor location surrounded by barren tundra and ice to the north and desert to the west. There is just a thin sliver of land nearly surrounded by water. There is not a single river of significance in the entire northern half of the continent where the player starts. Except for hill mines and plain cottages, the little land that exists is not improveable.
Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist here to do the math when you are comparing rich riverside grasslands, farmlands, and forests of the southern neighbors to the barren terrain of the north. Coast terrain (+1 food, another +1 with lighthouse, and +3 commerce for financial) cannot compete at all to improved riverside terrain with a town (+7 commerce, +1 more commerce for financial, +1 commerce for river, +1 hammer with civics, beyond the baseline 1 food/1 hammer plain or 2 food grassland base). When you add the AI bonus and the player penalties for monarch, the difference became insurmountable, at least for me.
Wonders I found to be impossible to build because the Chinese guy is industrious and churns them out like butter. Between their much more productive terrain and the baseline bonuses, I could not build a single wonder.
Early conquest is also very difficult. The only iron/copper resources are to the northwest in icy areas with virtually no productive terrain. Do you sacrifice a settler just to capture the resource when your other cities have such poor production anyway? I will be waiting to see how the early conquest wizards pull this one off.
With great difficulty, I made it as high as third place but could never pull ahead and ultimately lost (no reference to spoilers). After resigning, I replayed a couple times (realizing that I cannot submit to GOTM) and couldn't do any better.
If you could change places with either the Americans or the Chinese on the starting continent, it would be a cakewalk. As it is, it was impossible, at least for me. This would be a good map if starting locations were comparable and fair. Unfortunately, they are not. This is really an emperor or diety level challenge IMO. I hope future GOTMs will be more equitable, although there may be some educational value in seeing how others surmount these challenges.
I feel this game is definitely winnable (and I hope to submit a victory if I can find the time to complete it.) You can review the final spoiler thread now; perhaps there are some strategies other players used (who did submit a win) that could help you with this game. I agree the land isn't great, but the AI has many limitations that the player does not have.
toller pretzl
A 1000 years of broccoli
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 394
An emphatic yes to that question!
I stole a worker from the Americans. They sent one archer ; when it reached my three waiting warriors they gave me peace.
I founded only three cities, my third city by the iron. This city could never be bigger than size four, but who cares ?
Taking out the Americans was indeed a complete cakewalk after that. Not to speak of the Chinese afterwards, who didn't have metals and could be taken out any old time.
After that I was in complete controll and could have chosen any victory condition (except perhaps diplomatic since I have never mastered that).
Maybe this game suited my playing style in some way. I did like the "no barbarians" setting. To me that meant : take what you want and don't worry about unexpected dangers.
I founded on the Iron (and I totally agree with your emphasis toller pretzel - founding to get Iron is practically required!) Later in my game this city fluctuates between size 5 and 7 depending on when I've pop-rushed, and I could probably get it up to size 10 (higher if I wanted to irrigate and use tundra spaces, but there's little point to that).
I started by moving my Warrior NW saw the cow, then moved my Settler NW and settled London. I tried something new for me, I noticed that it would take the same amount of time to build a worker as to discover Bronze Working. Thinking that forest clearing would help me get a good start, I started on a Worker from turn 1 (I had always before gotten my city to 2 or usually 3 before starting workers or Settlers). I figured if I went for Buddhism or Hinduism someone else would beat me, so I ignored religion.
I was surprised by the fractal looking map. Since there were no barbarians I left my cities unprotected and went exploring. Found China and America and noticed the poor resources others have mentioned. At some point I figured I was behind in tech so went for Alphabet hoping to even up the techs by trading. Seemed to work ok, and I helped ensure good relations.
Initially I planned for a Domination victory, ignoring religion, hopefully capturing a holy city. But no one was available for a quick conquest so I went the peaceful route. Eventually I noticed that neither America or China had religion so I made a dash for Theology and founded Christianity. It quickly spread and helped insure good relations with my neighbors. If I can ever get a Religious leader I hope it will solve my money problems.
So at 0AD, I have only 5 cities, but am about to found 2 more. I am still having money and happiness problems. I am also in last place, but have only seen two other Civs, no trace (except for a barely detected border) of the other Civs.
I have changed my plans 3 or 4 times because of the poor resources, or the religious opportunity. Because of this I am a bit unfocused, and while I might be able to survive, a win will be tough.
I was surprised by the fractal looking map. Since there were no barbarians I left my cities unprotected and went exploring. Found China and America and noticed the poor resources others have mentioned. At some point I figured I was behind in tech so went for Alphabet hoping to even up the techs by trading. Seemed to work ok, and I helped ensure good relations.
Initially I planned for a Domination victory, ignoring religion, hopefully capturing a holy city. But no one was available for a quick conquest so I went the peaceful route. Eventually I noticed that neither America or China had religion so I made a dash for Theology and founded Christianity. It quickly spread and helped insure good relations with my neighbors. If I can ever get a Religious leader I hope it will solve my money problems.
So at 0AD, I have only 5 cities, but am about to found 2 more. I am still having money and happiness problems. I am also in last place, but have only seen two other Civs, no trace (except for a barely detected border) of the other Civs.
I have changed my plans 3 or 4 times because of the poor resources, or the religious opportunity. Because of this I am a bit unfocused, and while I might be able to survive, a win will be tough.
Teddy Slavic
Chieftain
Well, starting location is not smth to be a real competitor
BUT: Chinese dn't have any metals at all! - such a good reason to get all the Wonders that they ever built! Second thing - I think there is no choice whether or not to build city for iron. Anyway, using lighthouse (and windmills later), it can reach size about 7-8, not too bad for additional commerce.
Fairly saying, I decided to rub Qin rather late, stupidly building GL and waiting for chinese Feudalism... but after replaying from start (I don't submit this GOTM, surely
) - China was completely destroyed in one war session, from 200 AD till about 400 AD. Just build for about 10 swords and 2 galleys to move them quickly on the southern coast, and Pekin with all its Wonders is the 1st goal. Swords vs. archers, no problem. And after this victory all things become easy, English become 1st on rank and the only real competitor on the map staying - the USA.
Jasonc
Chieftain
I'm curious, what wonders did the Chinese build in other people's games? In mine, they had built Stonehenge and Parthenon in their Capital by 500AD. Did anyone have a different experience with the Chinese?
toller pretzl
A 1000 years of broccoli
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 394
Great Lighthouse in Beijing. (Stonehenge in Washington)
Can't remember exactly by my chinese were indeed quite productive.
pyramids among others (great lighthouse too, I wanted it but it was gone on the turn I got sailing
)Teddy Slavic
Chieftain
In my game, Pyramids belong to Americans... Pejing has only very valuable Lighthouse.
ditto - Pyramids (and Colossus) for America; Great Lighthouse (and 2 later Wonders) in Beijing
Jasonc
Chieftain
America built Pyramids in my game too. Not surprising, I guess, since they had Stone close by. But it's interesting how the Chinese had a bit more variety. Does anyone know if there is a random element to Wonder Production, or was the difference purely due to in game differences?
Mad Professor
Deity
I finally got started on this. I might not have time to finish. I've played as far as 575AD as I type this. Did that today. I was really just playing so I got it done! Unfortunately the lack of thought planning and goal have told somewhat, but I'll get there. Just not as fast or as well as I might have.
Anyhow, settled in place (might have been better elsewhere) started with worker first and headed south with the warrior. Consequently I came accross Washington, and he had a worker conveniently working on the stone, so I declared war and stole it. So I had two workers going early which was nice.
Qin founded hinduism and it spread to my area and I converted. Washington finished up Hindu as well so even he likes me now despite the war declaration. I founded taoism with a GS getting philosphy, but preferred the big plusses for reamining Hindu
Still not sure where I'm going, but it's pretty chummy on my continent with the three of us Hindu. I'm the "most advanced" in the world according to those lists that come up every now and again so I shouldn't have trouble getting yet another GOTM space race victory, but I've already well and truly blown the possibility of a really fast one.
I've settled a couple of cities south towards Washington, one SE of London on the coast near cows and clams, one further east, and three on the western peninsula to get the resources over there. The economy is bearing up well under so many cities, and I don't think I'll need any more. Shouldn't have any trouble being first to liberalism from here either. So - adequate but not great, probably will finish up a not-so-fast spaceship win, and hopefully I get it done by the 30th!
Anyhow, settled in place (might have been better elsewhere) started with worker first and headed south with the warrior. Consequently I came accross Washington, and he had a worker conveniently working on the stone, so I declared war and stole it. So I had two workers going early which was nice.
Qin founded hinduism and it spread to my area and I converted. Washington finished up Hindu as well so even he likes me now despite the war declaration. I founded taoism with a GS getting philosphy, but preferred the big plusses for reamining Hindu
Still not sure where I'm going, but it's pretty chummy on my continent with the three of us Hindu. I'm the "most advanced" in the world according to those lists that come up every now and again so I shouldn't have trouble getting yet another GOTM space race victory, but I've already well and truly blown the possibility of a really fast one.
I've settled a couple of cities south towards Washington, one SE of London on the coast near cows and clams, one further east, and three on the western peninsula to get the resources over there. The economy is bearing up well under so many cities, and I don't think I'll need any more. Shouldn't have any trouble being first to liberalism from here either. So - adequate but not great, probably will finish up a not-so-fast spaceship win, and hopefully I get it done by the 30th!
dalamb
Deity
I played Adventurer. Unfortunately ran into my usual bane quickly: inability to continue after a stupid mistake, in this case founding my 2nd city on the inner sea instead of the outer. By the time I calmed down I'd exited with several turns to recover since the last save. I did continue the unsubmittable game until a few hundred AD, so have a few comments to make:
In adventurer, the presence of Gold makes a huge difference in choice of placement: the coastal options various people tried seem vastly inferior to settling in place to get gold in the BFC, especially once moving the warrior NW reveals the cows.
The workboat makes lots of exploration possible, whose effects I can't mention until the final spoiler, if I actually finish, which I probably won't.
I expected the lack of resources based on an un-removed comment in the 'saves available' thread but I didn't expect just how bad it would be. It sounds like aiming for war to capture good resources (and wonders) from Qin was an important strategy, but I still don't have the killer instinct and never got around to attacking anyone by 0AD. I never noticed Qin's lack of strategic resources; maybe next time I play a game I'll pay more attention!
I ran into video card trouble before getting very far into the game, so I never finished (all 3D games stopped working, causing crashes and showing all kinds of small flashing glitches before crashes, and blowing dust off the video card as someone suggested elsewhere didn't help). But I've never finished a GOTM anyway, so there would have been some other excuse.
Leveraging the Financial trait was easy given the sea resources, and I expect I'd have evenually cottaged the capital, but as it was I went for library/scientists in London so didn't have population free to work the cottages given the need for working the gold, the cows, and the corn.
I have no idea even now how I should have made use of the Expansive trait aside from fast granaries, given the happiness limitations (at least, given the limitations as far as I got in this game). I suppose going for forges in most cities would have helped with the poor production.
In adventurer, the presence of Gold makes a huge difference in choice of placement: the coastal options various people tried seem vastly inferior to settling in place to get gold in the BFC, especially once moving the warrior NW reveals the cows.
The workboat makes lots of exploration possible, whose effects I can't mention until the final spoiler, if I actually finish, which I probably won't.
I expected the lack of resources based on an un-removed comment in the 'saves available' thread but I didn't expect just how bad it would be. It sounds like aiming for war to capture good resources (and wonders) from Qin was an important strategy, but I still don't have the killer instinct and never got around to attacking anyone by 0AD. I never noticed Qin's lack of strategic resources; maybe next time I play a game I'll pay more attention!
I ran into video card trouble before getting very far into the game, so I never finished (all 3D games stopped working, causing crashes and showing all kinds of small flashing glitches before crashes, and blowing dust off the video card as someone suggested elsewhere didn't help). But I've never finished a GOTM anyway, so there would have been some other excuse.
Leveraging the Financial trait was easy given the sea resources, and I expect I'd have evenually cottaged the capital, but as it was I went for library/scientists in London so didn't have population free to work the cottages given the need for working the gold, the cows, and the corn.
I have no idea even now how I should have made use of the Expansive trait aside from fast granaries, given the happiness limitations (at least, given the limitations as far as I got in this game). I suppose going for forges in most cities would have helped with the poor production.
I used to be a perfectionist too. That forced me to reload hundreds of times in my private games back in Civ3. Guess what? I only finished 1 game in years and years of gaming!
Now I am a "smoothed perfectionist". I micromanage every city every turn, but I can put up with my mistakes. When you finish every game you play, you realise how unimportant some mistakes are in the final outcome. I enjoy the game much more now.
So, if you want my sincere advice, try and play 2 or 12 games in quick speed. Don't put much effort into them. Don't ever look back when you make a mistake. Finish them all. Then look at the results. Compare strategies. You know you can make much better than that... so open GOTM25 and do it! I did so and I get much more pleasure from playing now.
Forges add some hammers per turn, but cost a lot of hammers to build. In a hammer rich city the forge will pay for itself in a few turns. In a hammer poor city it will take ages to recover your investment. So I would never build a forge in poor production cities. But that's just me!
Make sure your CivilizationIV.ini file is edited to autosave every turn. Then, if you do exit, or crash, and want to continue later you can load the last autosave, and you only have the current turn to replay - as accurately as possible!
Code:
; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Forges also multiply happy effect from some resources ... might you whip a forge in a hammer poor but food rich city to raise the happiness cap? I have done that at times.
dV
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