GOTM 25 Final Spoiler

[RobertTheBruce]

Comparing my cultural game with jesusin:
I’m impressed by how focused your empire was, jesusin. I went for more – more cities, more religions, more wonders. The early research boost from a better capital + bureaucracy gave you an insurmountable boost. I have a lot more religions(5 vs 3), cathedrals(14 vs 7), and cpt(2100 vs 900) at the end but settling in place and the second war with Washington slowed my research so jesusin started building culture long before I did.

RobertTheBruce’s and jesusin’s cultural games comparison.

Legend:
Robert’s Fact -> jesusin’s fact -> Who’s game is better off (R=Robert, j= jesusin, E= equal, ??= don’t know).

All this evaluation is subjective and open to discussion.

Settling in place -> Settling 2E -> j
Worker-warrior-pop3-settler -> Worker-warrior-pop3-settler -> E
Agri-AH -> Agri-AH -> E or j
Early Pottery -> Pottery traded after slingshot and Alpha -> ?? or R
Dow Isab -> Dow Monte -> ??
Conquest war with chariots -> Conquest war with catapults -> R
Settling an ugly city S -> settling an ugly city N -> R
CoL +confu -> CoL +confu -> E
No Oracle -> CS slingshot -> j
Half a GS -> GS popped taoism -> j
… but the GS would have been used for an Academy -> bulbing Philo -> R
Dow Roo too -> no second enemy -> ??
Parthenon -> No Parthenon -> R++
No 1st to Music -> Free GA -> j
70bpt -> 110bpt sustainable at 1AD -> J

850AD NE -> 100BC NE -> J++ (A big oversight in my game – I could have easily produced 1 or 2 more great artists – I was too involved in wonder races and neglected the NE because I couldn’t lose a race to build it.)
Copper for cathedrals -> No resources for cathedrals -> R
Sistine’s -> No Sistine’s -> E
NotreDame -> No NotreDame -> J - Too many hammers when I should have built the NE
1160AD Liberalism -> 520AD Liberalism -> j
PP free -> Nationalism free -> j (I can’t believe you ignored the Hermitage, did you, Robert?) – I did skip the Hermitage because I had so many cathedrals to build with 5 religions. With the bonus resource they are about the same culture bonus/hammer as Hermitage. I probably should have researched Nationalism and built the Hermitage instead of one of the Hindu cathedrals in Madrid or Timbuktu. It still would have been a toss up after accounting for the additional research or lowering my base cpt from the cottages without PP.
1000AD stats: 4000accumulated culture (Washington captured late for a legendary city), 140cpt, 3Cathedrals- still researching Liberalism-> 825cpt in my 3 cities together, 47000 accumulated c in them17 cottages, 3 Cathedrals, Hermit, 132GPPpt -> J
Inopportune final war -> peace -> j
1500AD stats: unknown -> 700-150-400, 200GPPpt -> ??
Taj Majal ignored -> Failed to get Taj Majal -> R
All GP are GA -> All GP are GA but a single wanted GS -> E (feels good, doesn’t it?)
9 GP -> 16 GP -> j
4 GA settled -> 0 GA settled -> ?? (I am sure settling 1 before 1AD was best than settling 0, but I don’t know if 4 are too much- I didn’t calculate my finish date but 14cpt base (with Sistine+ 300% bonus) = 56cpt so it was worth settling until within 80 turns of the end without including the gold. I probably settled 1 too many. I usually settle until I am close to stopping research but probably should stop settling half way through research
4 turns between the first and last legendary – 20 turns reduced purposely to 14 by delaying the capital -> R
Couldn’t decide to revolt -> revolted constantly -> j
14 Cathedrals -> 7 Cathedrals -> ??
Final date 1770AD -> 1660AD -> almost E – I wouldn’t say this is almost equal but I did finish within 25 turns of you which was my goal given my decision to settle in place.

 

[BLubmuz]

...continued from this
Monty is buried in the deep fog, he doesn't wanna trade anything, my forces are not enough to smash him.

An egyptian caravel came out of nowhere, and i'm still researching Machinery, perhaps some good trade... not much, indeed.
OK, our economy is in a decent shape now, time to grow an army.

Pretty decent one, let's start, at least we'll gain one city or two.
Not bad, but that RNG... well, city gained, more units killed than lost, meditation and some money are not that bad, let's wait a bit.
The only wonder i built was in Madrid, the GLH, and guess? i popped a GM, and this nice guy gave me almost all CS eheeh maces online shortly.
Upgrade the best axes, build cats, more maces, a good number of xbows OK, ready, time to die, Monty.

I played so badly i didn't noticed that unpleasent guy owned Pyramids... and in the first target, too... fat, fat.

war: t. 176-203(1430 AD), Monty with a icy city and a 1-tile-tundra island.

In the meatime i founded Tao with my second GP, a GS.
Probably thanks to this i was able to win, i suppose for 1 or 2 turns the liberalism race: chose Astro.
Then, first on economics, goin' for rifling, Monty finished in a 2 turns war in 1545 AD.

When my (supposed) invasion force was ready (mostly CR3 maces upgraded to rifles) i loaded a fleet of galleons, covered by some frigate, and this was my last mistake:
I unloaded 4 galleons on rifles and cannons right to Thebes... dammit 7 cats attacked, followed by anything she can throw me, and the RNG did bad: rifles killes by WE, the only mace by a pike, bah.
I manage to land 3 more units, but another wave came, and in 2 more turns they was gone.
Not enough galleons, and not enough patience to wait to land in the same turn.
To my justification, the superiority of my forces, but she has numbers.
OK, i took a city she founded in a corner on MY continent, so i gained some money for peace.

My production was impressive, my research too, less than 10 turns (the time the galleons back home) and a fresh new force is ready.

No mistakes this time (errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum) landed some 10 galleons in the same turn: cavalry, rifles, grens, cannons.
Egypt falled in few turns, domination reached in 1846 for some 56K... pityful, given the conditions.

 

[da_Vinci]

When my (supposed) invasion force was ready (mostly CR3 maces upgraded to rifles) i loaded a fleet of galleons, covered by some frigate, and this was my last mistake:
I unloaded 4 galleons on rifles and cannons right to Thebes... dammit 7 cats attacked, followed by anything she can throw me, and the RNG did bad: rifles killes by WE, the only mace by a pike, bah.
I manage to land 3 more units, but another wave came, and in 2 more turns they was gone.

Much like my ill fated invasion of Egypt, for much the same reasons. But as I was just milking on my way to the UN, no time for a second wave.

dV

 

[greentea]

I am playing this GOTM after a long break from Civ. I decided to get BtS for Christmas, so I am getting back to it just in time. Anyway, I just wanted to post this as an encouragement for the other beginners like me. I won on Emperor for the first time! It was a long struggle, but I made it to a 20th century domination. For comparison, my best achievement in the past has been on Monarch and I was fairly comfortable only with Prince. This might prove that this game was indeed easier, but I must say I made some big mistakes and still made it to the end. First of all, I settled on the spot. Also, I didn't take the gold-and-rice spot with my second city, either. Instead I went for the bronze that was south. Very soon every good location was taken by the AI and I had no choice but declaring on Roosevelt who had New York on the premier spot. It wasn't the planned attack that the experienced players perform, I just realized I had to do it and it worked well. To cut the story short eventually I got friendly with Monty until we got rid of the other two. Then I lead an exhausting war with him for centuries. The most important lesson for me is that I recognized the times when it's better to cease fire and regroup, so gradually I got the upper hand (OK, he was never even close to taking any of my towns, but still had advantage in the power graph for quite a while). Hatty had outresearched me by the time I met her and was starting to build the ship as I was finishing Monty, but I made it in time. Like others, I forgot to check the population, so I lost a few turns, but that's not important. I made it!

 

[BLubmuz]

And reading this spoiler and the the first one, more pityful, if possible.

You would say that the starting continent has enough land for domination?

Yes! (see Balbes post)
I razed 3 northern tundra cities, lost some 80 turns preparing and fighting the war with Hatty, to discover this?

That when with 2 f... settlers and running caste i could have won without all that trouble?

And i AM a Quattromaster?

Better i go back to Settler difficulty.

Now i go in my SG6 thread and tell to my teammates to not keep in any consideration my proposals.
perhaps not this one

 

[Harok]

Wow, if Harok only launched in 1834 AD, a mere six years before me, I'm suddenly a lot more pleased with my date.

You're the one whose name is all over the front of the website, I should be pleased to be beating you.

 

[Niklas]

That's for Civ3! I will gladly admit I'm one of the top players around here (that are still playing) when it comes to Civ3, but I'm still very much a rookie in CIV.

 

[Vynd]

I played this one in lots of small sessions spread out over quite awhile so my memory is hazy. I settled in place. Quickly found the neighbors and realized I couldn't coexist peacefully with both Monty and Izzy. So I prioritized war techs. Saw the Copper to the south and planned to build my second city there, but then found Horses at home before the Settler made it there, and decided to Chariot rush instead. Second city went near the Gold. Adopted Monty's state religion so he would be friendly.

Built a bunch of chariots. Decided to attack Roosevelt first because he'd settled all around my gold city and had no culture in his cities. Added a couple of Horse Archers to my army and then struck hard, capturing all but one of the American cities. Continued producing military and attacked Izzy shortly after making peace with the Americans. By now I had Iron thanks to Washington, and added Swordsmen to my force mix. But Izzy's army was tougher than the Americans and she had cultural defenses, and the combination made for very slow going. I ended up capturing only two cities over the course of a rather long war. After making peace I razed Washington's last city and built a better one, my first on the east coast.

All this fighting meant meant my research rate and overall economy were pretty poor. But I had many good production cities. So the obvious choice was a military victory of some sort. Had I counted things out and realized domination was possible on the home continent I would have tried that as fast as possible, but instead I planned to gradually conquer the continent while researching to at least Astronomy.

So I built my economy up to a semi-respectable level, got a Great Person farm going in a captured Spanish city near the seafood south of the capital, and attacked Izzy again as soon as I had some catapults. Monty joined in as well. That war ended with her down to a one-tile island city. I wiped her out a few hundred years later.

As soon as I was done with Izzy I sent my Macemen to strike Monty. He had LBs. I took about half his cities while researching to Astronomy, then made peace and loaded the bulk of my troops onto Galleons to attack Hatty. They landed and captured a city just in time for me to start promoting Maces to Grenadiers. From there on out it was just a matter of pushing troops to the front lines as fast as possible. I ended up with a 1690 AD domination win with about 77k in points.

 

[Thorrez]

I did skip the Hermitage because I had so many cathedrals to build with 5 religions. With the bonus resource they are about the same culture bonus/hammer as Hermitage. I probably should have researched Nationalism and built the Hermitage instead of one of the Hindu cathedrals in Madrid or Timbuktu. It still would have been a toss up after accounting for the additional research or lowering my base cpt from the cottages without PP.

I have a question about this. If you skipped Hermitage anyway to focus on cathedrals. What about shutting down research after Music (given that you have 5 religions)? Or is the bonus from PP paying of better?

 

[jesusin]

I have a question about this. If you skipped Hermitage anyway to focus on cathedrals. What about shutting down research after Music (given that you have 5 religions)? Or is the bonus from PP paying of better?

I have wondered this myself, but never got to try it. The main disadvantage is the loss of Free Speech.

 

[jesusin]

Comparing my cultural game with jesusin:

Thank you for the analysis, I love this kind of discussions and I learn a lot.
I hadn't really realised how explosive your cultutre accumulation was. The total number of turns spent in 100%culture was much less in your game.

There's nothing more I can add, really. Thank you

 

[RobertTheBruce]

I have a question about this. If you skipped Hermitage anyway to focus on cathedrals. What about shutting down research after Music (given that you have 5 religions)? Or is the bonus from PP paying of better?

I never thought about this. I kept going to Liberalism for Free Speech. Its an interesting idea for another cultural attempt.

 

[Lexad]

Challenger, Dom 350AD (should've been 10 turns earlier if I haven't fallen victim to my gred and took bunch of techs for peace from Izzy)

Settled 1E after saw Gold moving NE. Wanted second city on copper - got beaten by Izzy and Roose (they went there simultaneously, but Roose was 1 bit faster). Saw I had nothing to wait for and started chopping-producing chariots. Got copper city and Washington, made peace for techs. Attacked Monty, brought catas, made peace for techs, left with 1 city. Finished Roose. Attacked Izzy, killed off except 1 city.
In the middle of Monty's demise I had a chance to finally count tiles and curse all useless hammers spent on Oracle, libs etc. Built 7 settlers, hired artists, got Dom.
Only 3 hours of no-brain game. Kudos, Erkon, you've been faster!

Edit: I see Balbes has put some brain to the game, unlike me. Great job!

 

[Conquistador 63]

I value fastest wins more than high scores (just a matter of personal taste, not that I think high scores need less skill).
However, I wonder about the score achieved by those fast dominations. I got mine as late as 840AD but accidentally ended up with one of my highest personal scores in my GOTM history (just below 130K). Will it be enough to get me anywhere near a medal?

 

[Lexad]

I have a higher score (not much higher, though), and know person who has higher milked score, and Balbes and Erkon should get even higher - so, I think no medal (for me either).

 

[Erkon]

I have a higher score (not much higher, though), and know person who has higher milked score, and Balbes and Erkon should get even higher - so, I think no medal (for me either).

Nah - I was short on pop since I whipped the final settlers. No good score for me:

Game date: 200AD
Base score: 1605
Final score: 103867

 

[Kennigit]

1923 Space-race victory, 37.5K

Not very well played on my part- jumped out the gate strong and had printing press right after 500 AD, but got slowed down by a war with Izzy. Got all I wanted from her by 1000, then finished roosevelt off in 5-6 turns. Monty attacked me about 3-4 times this game, each time irritating New York, causing it to slave or draft and bogged down my speed to a space-race. My last war with him was a waste, payrushing some tanks to get only 1 city of any value (I was going to vasalize him since I knew his culture overpowered me, but something about that plan didn't work out ), and only beefed up my score by a little bit. Pulled a DynamicSpirit on this one if I may say so myself , with 6 wars IIRC.

This game probably will be accepted, but it might be scratched out (when I won, the movie screen failed and crashed the game; had to load autosave and finish up from there. PM'ed the mods about it and hopefully they'll take it).

 

[azmodean]

From the First Spoiler thread

Spoiler :

I recently quit playing a MMORPG in order to concentrate on some Tertiary studies, so of course, I am back to playing CIV. Previously I have suffered some nasty losses in Emperor GOTMs and usually I play Monarch, so I chose to use the Adventurer bonuses. Turns out I probably shouldn't have worried so much.

Anyway, settled 1NE. Had my free worker off to the gold mines while I got the Cows domesticated. Then saw the Horses as well, and decided on a Military victory. Grabbed Archery for some more Skirms and started on to Horseriding. Think I got BW first, maybe.

As Roos was like 2 centimetres away I sent over some Skirms to take out a worker (but missed!) though ended up shutting down Washington so it couldnt grow. Eventually captured with the help of some new Horsies, I also settled Djenne to the north to get the Corn & Sheep. Roosy still had a city off the East somewhere but I made peace for a swag of techs around 1600BC.

3 cities, Fishing, Wheel, Hunting, Mining, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Horsies, Bronze Working, Writing, Alphabet.

Monty is higher score, but Isabel is closer (and I reckon crazier) so my Horsies head south to take Barcelona. At some point I pop Stonehenge in Timbuktu and also switch to Hinduism, which is spreading around by itself nicely. I try to go take Madrid and bounce off her Cultural Defence, so follow a road West and take Seville near the Western Copper. Bonus! Isa would have been problematic if I hadn't fixed that up. Peaced for some more techs 875BC.

5 cities, Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mystcism, Mining, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Polytheism, Masonary, Horsies, Bronze Working, Writing, Alphabet.

With holes all over my borders, Monty was crusing around looking for spots to settle, so I had to DOW him almost immediately. Got some more workers from settler parties. Texcoco was on a hill upriver NE from Timbuktu so I went around that to hit Teotihuacan further East on grass. I came back for Texcoco once I had a couple of Axes to use as softeners. The army then turned around again to go take Tenochtitlan. Roosy had taken this opportunity to stroll across the continent and park a city 1S of the dye SE from Timbuktu. Since I now wanted to finish Roos off, I peaced with Monty around 350BC for some 80 gold or so.

8 cities, Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mystcism, Mining, Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Polytheism, Masonary, Horsies, Priesthood, Monotheism, Bronze Working, Writing, Alphabet, Mathematics, Monarchy (just starting on Construction!!) 1093 score.

Destoyed the new American city in combat then went and captured New York near the East Coast. No more Roosy. Having neatly divided Monty from Isa, I settled on a short period of consolidation. I changed tech and got CoL and Drama before Construction. I tried to build the Pyramids but missed out by ONE TURN to the unknown Civ. The gold actually helped me get CoL faster so I didnt care (much).

Courthouses for everyone! Eventually got my Research above 0% and could stop having to build beakers to learn anything! By 350AD I was 1 turn from completing Iron Working (for Compass, for Optics, etc) and was building my first Catapults. Would be DoW on Isabella very shortly...

9 cities, Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mystcism, Mining, Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Polytheism, Masonary, Horsies, Priesthood, Monotheism, Bronze Working, Writing, Alphabet, Mathematics, Monarchy, Construction, Drama, Code of Laws, 1772 score, 10 workers, 14 Skirmishers, 5 Horse Archers, Stonehenge, Hanging Gardens, The Kashi Vishwanath, 44.36% POP, 39.43% LAND. Domination looks more likely than conquest.

I should have grown a GS for Academy. Shouldnt have bothered with Drama (yet.) Regardless, final result is quite respectable.

Things I have learned only SINCE reading through this Final Spoiler thread: a) Ice counts as LAND tiles towards DOM, b) I should count DOM VC tiles more carefully... anyway!

So, what happened next? Rolled out Cats and took Madrid and Numidian (a barb city Isa previously captured on the East coast.) Eventually took Cordoba in the deep South. Isa had fled to the single tile island to build Toledo so she wasnt going anywhere soon. Or ever. Except maybe to hell.

Halfway through the Spanish campaign I also declared on Monty (what the heck, hey) and captured Tlaxcala in the Northern tundra using Swords and Cats. At 820AD I was still at War with both and had numerous troops poised to wipe Monte out.

13 cities, Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mystcism, Mining, Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Polytheism, Masonary, Horsies, Priesthood, Monotheism, Bronze Working, Writing, Alphabet, Mathematics, Monarchy, Construction, Currency, Machinery, Drama, Code of Laws, (1 turn until Compass) 2426 score, 13 workers, 25 Skirmishers, 7 Horse Archers, 4 Swords, 3 Axes, 10 Cats, Stonehenge, Hanging Gardens, The Kashi Vishwanath, 57.58% POP, 50.66% LAND.

Monte falls and Caravels begin wandering the seas, quickly getting Circumnavigation and finding Hatso. I also notice a number of unsettled Islands. Remember, at this point I think that the home continent DOES NOT have enough land for DOM, so am heading for Astronomy. I finish off Isabella and eventually park a settler via galleon on the tiniest scrap of land out there, but it is enough to claim the DOM VC in 1310AD.

Now that I know better about the DOM land requirements I realise I could have finished STACKS earlier, but hey, that is what this GOTM thing is all about for me: learning.

18 Cities, 3742 base Score = adventurer 99,700

The really important question though is, why am I typing up this report on Christmas Eve and not doing something more meaningful??

Merry Christmas [or insert religious observance of your choice] everyone!

 

[Erkon]

...
Now that I know better about the DOM land requirements I realise I could have finished STACKS earlier, but hey, that is what this GOTM thing is all about for me: learning.

Do you have an estimation when you would have finished if you'd settled the home continent?

"The really important question though is, why am I typing up this report on Christmas Eve and not doing something more meaningful??"

Because there are others who read this forum on Christmas Eve, and we find that reading your post is meaningful

 

[azmodean]

Do you have an estimation when you would have finished if you'd settled the home continent?

Not exactly, but consider that at the end I wouldn't have had to study Astro, or build the galleon, or sail for 5 turns, or... I could have just built a settler near the ice and been done! OR to take it back even further, I might not have stopped the wars to consolidate - just continue steamrolling, chuck out a few settlers and BAM, pre-800AD finish.

I think I will re-play the map without the Adventurer bonus, and see how fast I can get the Dom VC. Granted I know the map now so it will be easier.