GOTM 28 First Spoiler

Contender save. Goal: try to survive somehow, and get a Cultural Win before an AI launches its Space Ship! (I have only once won on Monarch yet, and never even tried Immortal :eek:)

I settled in place, and went Polytheism first, to make sure to get an early religion. I figured that with 5 Civs on a Standard-Islands-map, chances were we would be alone until Optics. And I doubted I would be able to get later religions against those Immortal-AIs ...

I settled 2 cities that were meant to go legendary using cottages and gold-mines, and the Capital should go legendary using Artist-Specialists, settled Artists and bombed Artists.
Bombay was settled SW of the gold, not on the coast, on the same spot than Jesusin, Gnejs and DS. It's working 3 cottages and 2 gold-mines at size 5.
Madras was settled NE of that lake NW of Delhi. No ressources, but quite a lot of cottagable grass-tiles. It's working 5 cottages at size 5 as well.
A 4th fishing-city has been founded on Iron-Island, and (at 150AD) I'm building another another settler for another fishing-city on Bronze-Island.

I didn't dare to try any World Wonders, except maybe the Sistine Chapel, but I'm not there yet.

Due to quite good fog-busting, the Barbs didn't give me any problems. I only met 1 Axe, who died when attacking my Archer on a forested hill.

I'm currently researching Music, and hoping to get that free Artist.

Spoiler Overview of my little empire :



Spoiler My techs :
Polytheism (3440 BC)
Fishing (3200 BC)
Bronze Working (2560 BC)
Hunting (2320 BC)
Sailing (1920 BC)
The Wheel (1640 BC)
Pottery (1400 BC)
Archery (1240 BC)
Animal Husbandry (1040 BC)
Writing (875 BC)
Masonry (800 BC)
Monotheism (650 BC)
Iron Working (400 BC)
Mathematics (200 BC)
Alphabet (0 AD)
Literature (125 AD)
Music (16 turns to go)
 
Hmm, very different game. At 825BC I had had 4 cities for a long time. Once you have explored the whole map there are not more than 2 good city spots, so it is ok. But, weren't you worried in the early game about having only 2 cities for so long?

Several reasons:
1. I was very focused on getting the Oracle and the Pyramids ASAP. Building or whipping another settler would have delayed either.
2. I aimed for barb defense using warriors only to be able to skip archery or trying to connect the island copper. Therefore I made sure to fogbust optimally around my two cities and at the same time have the warriors in the best defensible locations (hills+forests) at all times. This meant that my warriors were never allowed to go exploring if that would leave a tile fogged close to one of my cities. I don't know when I finished exploring the whole (small) island but it was extremely late considering the size of it. Maybe even in the ADs... :)
3. On Immortal difficulty, I often find it better to have a couple of very good cities rather than more but less productive ones.
4. I am notoriously poor at REX. :)


Capital and GPFarm were on PH in my game, just besides in yours. What's better?
PH in capital gives quicker start. But being isolated, we have a long time to play with opur island and my capital was hammer-poor longterm. Undecided. :confused:
PH in GPFarm allows to hire specialist immediately. Non-urgent buildings are slowly built. Granary and lh are whipped. I only used the tundra mines while building the NE. Your buildings must have been built faster, but at the cost of 1 citizen working the PH mine. Undecided. :confused:

I love your Madras. I never thought of it, not having any resource. It would have been very good in my game, it would have worked the capital cottages while the capital was busy with the clams, the lake and the mines.

Initial happiness cap was 4, with no visible happiness resources. Settling on the plains hill would give 8 hammer per turn maximum, so most production would have to come from whipping. Settling in place I could work one clam and three mines at size 4 for 11 hammers per turn. I reasoned that this would more than offset the slower start. Growth to pop4 is pretty fast with two netted clams.

For the GP farm I don't think I ever had to whip anything. I worked artist for border exp, then fish, fish+sheep, fish+sheep+plains mine until granary and lighthouse were in place (aided by two forest chops if I recall correctly), then switched to 4 scientists. I will have to go back to the logs to see how long time it took for this to be done. It would be very interesting to compare this to your FP city GP farm.
But the most important reason for not settling on the hill was to be able to maximize the naval production. My FP city could switch to fish+sheep+3 mines for 12 hammers per turn while your would be capped at 9 hammers per turn. This makes a big difference for getting that first pair of caravels out quickly, or later when building galleons.

Madras was the best compromise I could think of, being able to work the lake for +3 food which could support a grassland hill mine and either a gold mine (when not worked in Bombay) or a plains hill mine (when Bombay worked the gold), plus a bunch of cottages that could be developed for either of the two other cities.
 
Goal - Fastest Space - Contender save

Initial Plan - Test games had shown that a CS sling was nearly impossible, and wonders in general were tough to get unless you had the proper resource, so I wouldn't be trying for many. Health and happiness limits were brutal so an early religion and founding cities to pick up new resources would be a priority.

Actual events - Brutal game where not many things went as planned. I founded on the plain hill 1N of the starting spot when the warrior didn't uncover any reason to move. I started by building a settler while researching fishing then switched to a workboat then finished the settler. Then another workboat and worker. After fishing I went for Poly figuring it was my best shot at an early religion, unfortunately Hindu was founded by the AI first and I missed getting it while I could have had Buddism. :( I stopped research on Poly and wanting to develop those floodplains that I had picked out for my second city site I went Wheel > Pottery then towards Mono. I was beaten to it also and I knew I was in bad shape for happiness as I had been both unlucky and stupid trying to do too much. My options at this point to solve my happiness issues were to try for Conf or the Pyramids for Rep. and since I had stone I decided on the mids and was able to build it in the capital with the help of a couple of forests chops around 800BC. About the only thing good that happened for me.

I fog busted the island with a handful of warriors and then filled it up as quickly as possible. I founded a total of 8 cities on the continent and little islands. None of the cities were anything special, but none were terrible either. Other than the 2 gold city with cottaged FPs which had really slow growth I whipped like crazy and hired scientists to slow regrowth until ready to whip again. I debated founding 2 more cities, one on Iron island and the other on the west coast that would pick up the sheep to hire a couple of scientists but I decided against both of them.

With no one around there isn't much going on or to report. I made a half hearted attempt at the Hanging Gardens in the gold/FP/stone city but missed it by a long ways. I probably should have built it in the capital but it was always too busy with other stuff. I could tell I was behind the AIs by the religions and wonders they were completing and made an interesting decision to try and catch up. I would go against what I would normally think to do which is beeline Optics and meet them asap and instead beelined towards Education and just decided to let them find me and see if I would have things to trade once they did. Most likely this will end like everything else has up to this point, poorly.

Overall, I wasn't very happy with my early game as chasing religions slowed me down and got me nothing. I did an ok job with settling and working our islands and my research was really picking up. I built a library very early on for each city, an academy in the capital and ran Bureaucracy after CS, but at this point I felt I was probably in line for a space loss if I could handle relations well ar I started meeting the AIs and a conquest loss if not. Switching to a military game would require me to farm over all the cottages I had built. Plus I would probably be too far behind in techs to wage any effective wars, especially on normal speed, so I would stay on my space path. Not to mention my "army" consisted of something like 6 warriors and 2 chariots. Maybe I could get lucky and get to Liberalism first or early universities and Oxford can get me ahead. Ugh. :(
 
Goal: Cultural

I decided right off to attempt a cultural victory even though I have only done this once in vanilla/prince. I settled one S to get three food in big cross. My early focus was to obtain 3 early religions and later spam cities. I gambled correctly that we would be alone on an island.

Build : warrior->warrior->warrior->warrior->wb->warrior wb->worker
Research: Poly->Fishing->Mono->BW->Priest->Writing->COL and then backfill techs to bulb Philo.

In short, it was a one city challenge in the BC. The warrior fog busters worked well and I was able to research without any incidents. I was able to obtain Hinduism & Judaism but missed Taoism by 4 turns on about 275BC. once Taoism could not be attained I switched immediately settler spamming then infrastructure.
 
I decided right off to attempt a cultural victory even though I have only done this once in vanilla/prince. I settled one S to get three food in big cross. My early focus was to obtain 3 early religions and later spam cities. I gambled correctly that we would be alone on an island.

Build : warrior->warrior->warrior->warrior->wb->warrior wb->worker
Research: Poly->Fishing->Mono->BW->Priest->Writing->COL and then backfill techs to bulb Philo.

In short, it was a one city challenge in the BC. The warrior fog busters worked well and I was able to research without any incidents. I was able to obtain Hinduism & Judaism but missed Taoism by 4 turns on about 275BC. once Taoism could not be attained I switched immediately settler spamming then infrastructure.

Interesting approach. You must have picked up Masonry somewhere in there. Bronze Working was so you could chop forests? If you only missed Taoism by 4 turns, it seems like you might have made it if you'd skipped BW. To have even come close is pretty impressive though.

I like to have three religions when trying for a culture win but two can be enough. I'll be interested to hear how your game turns out. Waiting so long to get additional cities up and running may have hurt you.
 
Goal : cultural victory

I settled in place.
My initial plan was to build the Oracle to get Metal Casting, then build the Colossus for the maritime bonus. It all went wrong, because I get distracted and I spent too much time researching not so useful techs.

Research : fishing, poly, priesthood, hunting, BW, wheel, sailing, archery, AH.
Then in 116BC another civ constructed the Oracle (I even didn't have started it). In 625BC, the Colossus was built, but not by me...

Situation in 475AD :
- I only got 1 religion (hinduism),
- built the Hanging Gardens,
- got Kashi Wishwanath with my prophet,
- just discovered code of laws,
- and have 5 cities, all of them are on the island : one on the east coast could be useful for wonders, one near the gold could be useful for money and research, but i chose to build this latter on the desert tile SE of the 2 gold mines, which is far from being optimal (I thought the place on the flood plains was too low in hammers).
With so few cities, I managed to keep research on 70%-80% and made intensive use of the whip.
But with only 1 religion and no real economics boost, it looks like this game is going to be a real nightmare. How could I win this one ?
 
Moved north and started researching fishing and building a warrior. Once I had fishing I switched to work boats and researched BW. Got BW and began research on Meditation and was surprised to found Buddhism in 2760BC. After building 2 fishing boats I built a worker a few more warriors and then a settler. Founded Bombay in 2000BC on the desert southeast of the gold hills.

Built the Oracle in 1600BC for MC.


I pop rushed a Forge in Delhi and began running an engineer. In 1000BC I founded Madras claiming the fish, sheep, FPs, and stone. In 725BC I got a Great Person but unfortunately it was a Prophet and not an Engineer which I was hoping to use on either the Pyramids or the Lighthouse. In a replay my luck changed and I got the Pyramids - which allowed for a hugely effective specialist econ. In 600BC finished the Colossus.

By 500 AD I had 5 cities. Four on the mainland and one on the horses island.
 
@DS: Are you completely sure some AI didn't finish the Colossus the turn you poprushed it? The computer will allow you to build a wonder for one more turn after an AI completes it.
The sequence could have been: The Colossus has been completed in a foreign land! -> You poprush it that turn -> next turn You Can No Longer Build The Colossus (because it was already built)

Yeah, thinking about it that makes sense. I poprushed it then when the relevent AI had its turn, it completed it. I've never experienced that happen, which made it quite surprising to me, but then I guess it's not that often that an AI happens to complete a wonder the very turn before you do, so playing at most two XOTMs a month it's might not be too surprising that I've never experienced that.
 
Challenger, space/diplo/time/any victory

Pre-game analysis

Ok, this was going to be a bit tough. No early tech trading that the player can exploit, and no early land grab either. So the player is at a disadvantage for a very long time, and even more so with the challenger save. But since I haven't lost an immortal game yet in the GOTM series, I thought that I could afford a loss.

The key to space victory is research rate, and the key to the research race in this game is optics and astronomy. Optics enables tech trade and lots of intelligence, while astronomy enables resource trade, city trade and more important off world settlements. The quickest way to optics goes through the pyramids/CoL combination (representation + caste = specialist economy deluxe).

The happines cap was also a limiting factor. The pre-game conclusion was thus a) how to achieve speedy research and b) how to provide happiness to the citizens. The pyramids will solve both problems, but is be too expensive/imposible without stone. With this in mind, I opened the save....

Early development

I settled on the plains hill north, and started on a warrior. Early exploration is vital in order to choose strategy and early development. That's why I arrived at another conclusion compared to Jesusin, and my build order was: warrior, wb, worker, wb.

After Fishing I decided to go hunting/A.H. I had noticed the dear, and since 90% of the test maps I had generated provided horse on the starting continent, I thought that it was a good idea to prioritize A.H. Very stupid, and this was my first major mistake, which delayed Optics with perhaps 5 turns.

When I detected the stone, I built two settlers and settled the plains hill to the NW to claim both one of the desert gold and the deer. The second settler was sent to the stone, and settled on top of it. At the same time I expanded my fog busting and didn't have much problem with the barbs.

Further tech path: BW, Myst, Wheel, Masonry. Chopped the pyramids at 1000 BC.

One other detail: the map has 733 tiles, and a few island were visibleat the start. Unless there's plenty of tiny island, there's at least one more large island. As soon as I had explored the starting continent, and found very few small island, I draw the conclusion that there are two vacant continent. Early astronomy would enable me to grab them.

The plan takes form

I had just started on IW, when I realised that the quickest way to Optics was through CoL instead of through Libraries. So I teched to CoL the quickest I could. Now, anyone who knows the basics regarding lightbulbing know that I just made my second major mistake by teching Meditation, since Philosophy is bulbed before Astronomy. My other hope now is to pop astronomy from a hut, so I need to bring an explorer with my first caravel and hope that the huts are not guarded by a barb.

Another three cities were settled (one on the plains hill up NE at the fish and sheep, second up NW on hills between two deers, and the third north of the gold (2 gold + sheep in FC).

I got a GE from the pyramids, and bulbed Machinery (saved me 7-8 turns). Optics was learned 300 AD.

EDIT - stats as of 1AD:
6cities, 23pop, 3worker, 6War, Pyramids, 4gra, 3Lib, 3Obe, 1lh. Stone. 1Lux, 4health. FPG=57,17,39. 85sust bpt, 20GPPpt, 1GP (GE), 1WW 15Techs: Wri, CoL, IW, almost Compass, no agg, no archery, no Alpha. 0 religion. 7 cottages used. 6 hours.

All in all, very similar stats compared to jesusin, with me a bit stronger on research and he is stronger on production and food.
 
EDIT - stats as of 1AD:
6cities, 23pop, 3worker, 6War, Pyramids, 4gra, 3Lib, 3Obe, 1lh. Stone. 1Lux, 4health. FPG=57,17,39. 85sust bpt, 20GPPpt, 1GP (GE), 1WW 15Techs: Wri, CoL, IW, almost Compass, no agg, no archery, no Alpha. 0 religion. 7 cottages used. 6 hours.

All in all, very similar stats compared to jesusin, with me a bit stronger on research and he is stronger on production and food.

Ummmmmm, I can't understand the data. How do you read this?

jesusin: 1AD stats: FPG=65,27,31. 77sust bpt, 40GPPpt.
Erkon: 1AD stats: FPG=57,17,39. 85sust bpt, 20GPPpt.

With double GPP, and slightly inferior GNP, jesusin gets slightly inferior sustainable bpt. If jesusin had more scientists, he should have more bpt.
Now jesusin was in Pacifism while Erkon wasn't. So no more specialists. And jesusin was hiring artists, not scientists... so the difference in bpt should be higher than the difference in GNP.:confused: Maybe Erkon was paying more maintenance? :crazyeye:
 
Ummmmmm, I can't understand the data. How do you read this?

jesusin: 1AD stats: FPG=65,27,31. 77sust bpt, 40GPPpt.
Erkon: 1AD stats: FPG=57,17,39. 85sust bpt, 20GPPpt.

With double GPP, and slightly inferior GNP, jesusin gets slightly inferior sustainable bpt. If jesusin had more scientists, he should have more bpt.
Now jesusin was in Pacifism while Erkon wasn't. So no more specialists. And jesusin was hiring artists, not scientists... so the difference in bpt should be higher than the difference in GNP.:confused: Maybe Erkon was paying more maintenance? :crazyeye:

You have three pop more than me and more units, so I did not pay more maintenance than you, me thinks. One difference I can think of is your fourth library (giving you 25% out of perhaps 8 bpt = 2 bpt), but it's not enough to justify the non-change in gpt vs bpt. Perhaps you had your libraries in cities with more commerce rich tiles? I'll have to check each of my cities and come back with more details.

EDIT: Economy details

70% research @ -3 gpt
City maintenance 20
Civic upkeep 5

Delhi (6)- lib (two clam) : 23/6/-2 (bpt, gpt, cost)
Bombay (4) - lib (gold & deer) : 11/4/-3
Madras (6) - lib (3xFP) : 26/5/-4
Bangalore (5) - (Fish + Sheep) : 21/2/-4
Calcutta (1) - (sheep + gold) : 6/3/-3
Lahore (1) - (2xdeer) : 2/2/-4

As you can see, my cities are not mature, and I'm running three scientists i Bangalore without library.
 
I'm going for a cultural victory. I'm playing the shy game and staying on my little rock.

From memory, around 500AD I had no religions, no world wonders, no contact with foreign AI, lots of unhealthy citizens, lots of unhappy citizens and lots of undeveloped cottages. Oh joy.

It is heartening to know that some players were able to build early world wonders. Seems there is quite a bit of luck involved, credit to all those who went for it and had it pay off!

Also credit to those who deduced that there may be vacant barb land to take on the discovery of Astronomy and went for it.
 
Well, I can say this could probably qualify for a higher level of difficulty. Start was on the PH, expanded slowly to beat the high maintenance costs. Got Budhism but after meeting the other Civs, switched to Hinduism to match two of them. By the time I got to Astro, everyone else had it for quite some time and there wasn't much to settle. Barbs hold two larger islands, and production is so slow they may be there at the end of the game. Only options appear to be UN or Space Race victory.
 
Contender save. I only started this game after reaching frustration point with BOTM04. Frustrated by Prince level going to try Immortal??? Is that wise, Swede? Well, at least I don't start this game with any expectations of actually winning it.

Settled PH, build war/worker/wb tech Med/Priest got Bhuddism.

Second city on PH (deer + 1 gold). Barbs come and they are big, mean and fight dirty. Had Warrior fortified on forest hill protecting worker lose to single warrior barb. Ouch. Time to tech archery, since the next barb I see is an archer.

Built 3rd city on flood plain N or river (1 gold + sheep + stone). Now I have my 3 legendary cities (ROTFLOL - I have never managed cult victory on any level, mostly for lack of trying). Barbs no longer a prob.

Wonders I got: Stonehenge, Oracle (took Monarchy), and Hanging Gards. All in cap. Only getting GP priests, first one builds religion wonder building in Cap. Rest add to cap, except one which bulbed Theo.

Next built cities on PH on copper isle, on grass Horse Isle, and on N plains iron isle. Later built 2 more cities in north, fish in east, and deer in west.

I haven't done anything towards optics, let alone astronomy. Its only a matter of time before they contact me and decide my puny civ should be exterminated. But until then, I'm pretty pleased with my accomplishments (the main one being that I have operated in 90-100% research pretty much all the time, getting lots of GPP's, haven't crushed my economy, and have not been exterminated).
 
Contender save. Settled on the Plains Hill and went BW / warrior / fastworker to chop all those forests.

Saw the stone and beelined the pyramids; completed in 1440 BC.

Went Optics next for caravels and tech trades, discovered in 175 AD with the help of my first GE (bulbed Machinery).

Screwed up though by using my second Great Person to build an academy in Delhi, instead of saving him for bulbing Astro (which I was just 1 tech away from starting... :mad: :blush:).

Oh well. Now off to find the AI and hopefully some mid-game military entertainment. :D

 
In 725BC I got a Great Person but unfortunately it was a Prophet and not an Engineer which I was hoping to use on either the Pyramids or the Lighthouse. In a replay my luck changed and I got the Pyramids - which allowed for a hugely effective specialist econ. In 600BC finished the Colossus.

Ummm... just checking, but you do know about the no-replay rule, right? I.e. submissions have to be your first attempt without replays and all that. :)
 
You have three pop more than me and more units, so I did not pay more maintenance than you, me thinks. One difference I can think of is your fourth library (giving you 25% out of perhaps 8 bpt = 2 bpt), but it's not enough to justify the non-change in gpt vs bpt. Perhaps you had your libraries in cities with more commerce rich tiles? I'll have to check each of my cities and come back with more details.

EDIT: Economy details

70% research @ -3 gpt
City maintenance 20
Civic upkeep 5

Delhi (6)- lib (two clam) : 23/6/-2 (bpt, gpt, cost)
Bombay (4) - lib (gold & deer) : 11/4/-3
Madras (6) - lib (3xFP) : 26/5/-4
Bangalore (5) - (Fish + Sheep) : 21/2/-4
Calcutta (1) - (sheep + gold) : 6/3/-3
Lahore (1) - (2xdeer) : 2/2/-4

As you can see, my cities are not mature, and I'm running three scientists i Bangalore without library.

Revisited my save. 60% research @ -3 gpt. Paying 3gpt in units maintenace due to Pacifism. This explains all.

Some more data:
City maintenance 22
Civic upkeep 4
Ah, and it was 46GPPpt, not 40. Running 7 artists.
 
Contender save:

Original goal - conquest: adjusted goal - scrape out a victory

Settled on the plains hill, second city by stone and double gold. I was planning Pyramids when an archer appeared from a couple of fogged tiles in the southwest. It killed two warriors and captured Bombay. I build another city on the horse island and recapture Bombay with chariots. I am now way behind on research, missed every wonder and have small cities with happiness problems.

I beeline to caravels, lightbulbing Compass and Optics to try and have something to trade the AIs when I meet them. At about 500AD, two of my neighbors show up with their own caravels just as I'm whipping my first one. I am hopelessly behind and am researching Astronomy to have something to trade.

It is going to be a long game of catch up at best.
 
It looks like you and I had the same problem. I had a barb warrior kill my woodsman II warrior as I was moving him into place for fog-busting, then the barb came down and killed my warrior defending Bombay before I could get a second defender built. Killed my chances of getting the Pyramids and set my research back several centuries.

Here is my game to about 125 AD:

Spoiler :
4000 BC: Moved the warrior NW. Seeing nothing special I settled in place. (Suspiciously, the blue circles appeared W and NNW of the starting position so there may be something hidden that I am missing out on.) Going for Meditation, then Fishing then BW.

3760 BC: Two gold hills and what looks like at least 4 flood plains to the W.

3640 BC: Ooh! There's stone over by the gold/flood plains. Definitely looking to put Bombay over there.

3560 BC: Buddhism founded in Delhi.

2520 BC: My exploring warrior passively promotes to Woodsman II. Standing in the forest trying to heal from fighting a lion, two sets of wolves and another lion attacked while he was trying to heal.

1960 BC: Settler finishes. Begin Pyramids. My Woodsman II warrior killed by a barb warrior.

1880 BC: Bombay founded on the flood plain S of the mountain. This is a bit farther away than I like my 2nd city to be and it isn't coastal so I waste 3 ocean tiles, but I get both Gold hills, the Stone and the Sheep, plus a handful of grassland tiles for cottages. Not a perfect location, but it is a blue circle so I don't feel too bad.

1480 BC: A barbarian warrior captures Bombay! Fortunately it is not razed, but this will set me back significantly. I've never lost a one-on-one fight when my unit was fortified in a city. This changes my plans. I switch research to Sailing so I can found a city by that copper that is across the channel. That will take awhile so in the meantime I crank out warriors.

1080 BC: I place a warrior on the gold hill NE of Bombay to keep an I on the SOB that stole my city. That warrior has C1, C2 and Formation promotions! How the devil did a barb get 10 XP? Even if this is the same guy that killed my Woodsman II, he shouldn't be that tough. Does Immortal level play with barb XP? I never knew that. Well, the formation isn't going to do him much good, and I should be able to take him out with an axeman or 2 if I can manage to keep him from reinforcing Bombay. Grrr.

800 BC: I retake Bombay with a group of warriors. Surprisingly, my unpromoted warrior takes the defender down to about half strength so my second attacker with CR smokes him. Little bastard. 4 more turns before I can use my own damn city!

525 BC: Madras founded on the copper. This will save time building a min and will allow me to use the fish to the SW at the expense of severe overlap with Delhi and pretty much wasting the horse island.

100 BC: Pyramids build in a far-away land. 10 turns to go, which means I would have made it easily if I hadn't lost Bombay.

125 AD: Bombay is thriving with both Gold, the Sheep and the Stone being worked. Madras has the fish and a lighthouse but I need to get a worker over there to mine the hill and put a cottage on the grassland. Unfortunately my galley has been exploring and is about 10 turns away. It doesn't look like there is a coastal path to other Civs. Compass is 5 turns away, but I need to side-track the quest for Optics to get Priesthood so I can raise the happy cap. End of session.
 
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