GOTM 36 Pre-Game Discussion

[AlanH]

The best rule of thumb I've seen was, I think, suggested by ainwood, though I don't know where it was. He suggested a core should be at least 50% of the Optimum City Number for the map. I think this means 8 cities on a standard map?

There you go! He said it again!

it doesn't violate the rank corruption bug unless you have less than OCN/2 cities that are closer to the palace than to the FP

 

[WillowBrook]

Explorer W (for view of coast), then S; continue S & E (since we are north)

Makes sense, of course, but I wouldn't put it past Ainwood to put us on a hook-shaped island with hardly anything to our south and an isthmus in the northwest to a larger land mass to the west. Which will be mostly full of Germans by the time we get there.

 

[AlanH]

The mighty GOTM staff engine has lumbered into motion on the issue of Colossus GA triggers, and it's been established beyond reasonable doubt that Civ3 vanilla has had Colossus as a trigger for all three traits - religious, expansionist AND commercial - since at least version 1.21. We believe this changed in vanilla when PtW was introduced with this combination.

 

[Gyathaar]

Started a game in vanilla 1.29f .. in Civilopedia it just says expansionist and religious, but building the collossus gave a golden age for england.. so guess its just a bug in the civilopedia text i have.

 

[AlanH]

so guess its just a bug in the civilopedia text i have.

You may just find that's not the only error in the civilopedia

 

[eldar]

So, I tried a test game last night. I still can't manage Emperor, even with a decent-sized empire, good start, early-ish Republic, oh and a logical target island with Mongols, Arabia, and China during the era of Knights....

So: a lot of people will be warring with Knights, I reckon. So the nightmare scenario for me is Arabia, Mongols, China, India, not Jerkses or the Kaiser. Though in my test game, I got Jerkses and Arabia as well, just for kicks.

Neil.

 

[King Of America]

I know in "off-the-shelf" vanilla/PTW (and maybe C3C), the English UU, Man-'o-War cannot trigger a GA.

But, if I remember correctly, lethal bombard is possible with GOTM games. Please ainwood or AlanH state clearly if Man-'o-War can trigger a GA. I'm not sure if I want to wait till M-o-W is available to start my GA, but I think it would be a good idea if theis point were clearified before we all embark on Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Last one to the leave the island is a non-Golden Hinde (A bit of Drakonian humor--nobody calls me Francis).

 

[Jove]

Arrrr, a question. It's 70% ocean coverage, so exactly (and I mean exactly), what percentage of the world can we see with the pre-game screen-shot??????

 

[Jove]

Arrrr, Solenoozerec, admit it, you only want to settle by the coast because you're a guy who happens to like big salt lakes, not because you've done all the civ-calculations necessary to prove that it is indeed the ideal starting location!

 

[ainwood]

I know in "off-the-shelf" vanilla/PTW (and maybe C3C), the English UU, Man-'o-War cannot trigger a GA.

But, if I remember correctly, lethal bombard is possible with GOTM games. Please ainwood or AlanH state clearly if Man-'o-War can trigger a GA. I'm not sure if I want to wait till M-o-W is available to start my GA, but I think it would be a good idea if theis point were clearified before we all embark on Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Last one to the leave the island is a non-Golden Hinde (A bit of Drakonian humor--nobody calls me Francis).

The lethal bombard is for air units only, not for ships. However, you can trigger a golden age with the Man o' war by successfully attacking and sinking another ship.

 

[mabellino]

I know in "off-the-shelf" vanilla/PTW (and maybe C3C), the English UU, Man-'o-War cannot trigger a GA.

But, if I remember correctly, lethal bombard is possible with GOTM games. Please ainwood or AlanH state clearly if Man-'o-War can trigger a GA. I'm not sure if I want to wait till M-o-W is available to start my GA, but I think it would be a good idea if theis point were clearified before we all embark on Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Last one to the leave the island is a non-Golden Hinde (A bit of Drakonian humor--nobody calls me Francis).

I think you might be thinking of the Korean H'Wacha here. IIRC if you attack an enemy ship with a MoW (not bombard!) then a victory will produce your golden age.

 

[AlanH]

Arrrr, a question. It's 70% ocean coverage, so exactly (and I mean exactly), what percentage of the world can we see with the pre-game screen-shot??????

Well, you can see a 50 tile area (5 x 5 x 2) of which 5 are visibly water (I think), 37 are visibly land and 8 (actually including some half tiles) are not visible. If the map is *really* standard then it's 5000 tiles. So the whole area of the minimap is 1% of it.

[edit - corrected numbers]

 

[Megalou]

So do you mean that in Russia, Peter the Great has abused this move by building a new city Saint-Petersburg at the edge of the growing empire and making it a capital?

I'm hoping that this (very good) example would be permissable. Peter's plan was to secure the west against us - the Swedes I mean - and later create a flavour of European culture, which fitted well with the values of his family.

So apart from the palace rank bug (not sure Peter knew about it ) I see a few other reasons for a jump like this:

1. Enable future expansion (in the Baltic area) and maintain present expansion.
2. Protect yourself against flips by moving your capital next to a strong cultural power.
3. Protect a great powerhouse - in this case Kiev. Scandinavians running up and down the Dnipro River must have been a foul sight to Peter.

Comments?

 

[gozpel]

Discussions about Palace-jumps. It just makes me so furious.

The whole concept sucks. When the AI does it, then I will agree.

I can agree to change Palace-location by a leader, but that's it. It simply sucks. I prefer to build a FP with my leader.

Now let us do resource-denial as well....and ship-chaining and other stuff that the AI never does. It doesn't make the game more fun, it's all about score.

I'll never do any of above and will stay stubborn forever...and never get a medal.

But who cares about "fair play"?

Ah well, I had a couple of beers to many, so

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Speaking of evil palace jumps...

I think I will move SW for my first city, and then grow it to size 5 for a 4-turn warrior/settler factory. This would be a great spot for a 20k, but I don't want to go after that victory type this game. First builds will be a warrior or three and then a granary (don't know how many warriors until I work out the granary timing). My second city will be founded W, W from the first, and will immediatedly start a prebuild for the FP. I will establish a ring at RCP 3/3.5 around the FP city, and at some point jump my palace to another island. This approach will almost certainly put me behind in tech for a while, but I suspect I will catch up very quickly on a 'pelago map.

Although there will be no RoP abuse or resource denial in my game, I do expect to see some mighty large ship-chains. :shakehead

Sorry Gozpel! At least you don't have to worry about palace jumps (as much) in Conquests!

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

I see a neat possiblity w/ the double cow. Two cities could share them yielding the following combo: 6,4;4,6;6,4;6,4;4,6 and 2,4,4;2,2,4,2;4,4,2 respectively for a 4-turn settler factory and a 5-turn settler factory. After getting Mon/Rep, you could have 2 4-turn settler factories here. Too bad we're on an island where this may not be worthwhile at all.

Thinking worker SE/SE/Irrigate/NW/Irrigate/SW/W/Irrigate/E/Mine to get to 4-turn growth. Still need 1 more mine if I move settler SW unless there is BG on other side of cows, in which case we got it after this sequence.

Thinking Granery(3050)/Settler(2800)/TBD OR Scout_or_Warrior(3700)/Granery(2950)/Settler(2710) start w/ the Settler starting a military 'factory' nearby. Lots o' warriors to explore (if needed), display land to prevent the evil raging barbarians, or defend against nearby civs I hope don't exist (well maybe one in the middle of jungle, preferably Germans for early trades & normal defesne).

Does ship chaining still work in this version? Agree w/ GOZPEL that ship-chaining should be eliminated. I also like the idea of being able to move a Palace with a great leader only (either type in C3C). Civs that lose their palace should treat corruption as if it hadn't been taken, but not get another capital unless they build one. I do think the AI should be programmed for resource denial and make it an important military concept like it is in the real world. Satellites should eliminate the fog of war except for units that can 'hide' from them, maybe even a percentage for all units. Maybe these are ideas for Civ4

 

[Redbad]

I see a neat possiblity w/ the double cow. Two cities could share them yielding the following combo: 6,4;4,6;6,4;6,4;4,6 and 2,4,4;2,2,4,2;4,4,2 respectively for a 4-turn settler factory and a 5-turn settler factory.

According to my calculations you could even get a four turn warrior/settler and a four turn settler factory from the two cows.
Suppose you found the capitol 1SE and a second city 3 SW from the capitol. Both cities have granaries. The cows are wet and all grass is mined. The capitol starts at size 4,5 with 6 food and no shields. It is working 1 cow and the 3 bg along the river, giving a total off 8 shields and 4 food, building a warrior. Next turn the city grows to 5 adding 2 shields from the forest and finishes the warrior. Now the city adds the second cow and starts a settler. This turn will give 6 food and 9 shields. Then it switches the cow for a grass, thus giving 4 food. The city will grow to 6 giving 11 shields. The city adds the second cow again resulting in 10 shields and 6 food. The settler is finished and the cycle is complete.
The second city is at size 5 working a cow, a bg and 3 grass giving 6 food and 6 (7 minus 1 corruption) shields. Next turn it switches the cow for a grass and grows to 6 giving 8 shields. The city adds the cow producing 7 shields. Than the city swaps the cow for a grass. The fourth turn produces 9 shields and completes the settler and cycle.

 

[Redbad]

According to my calculations you could even get a four turn warrior/settler and a four turn settler factory from the two cows.

Oops, i'm doing a testgame now, but i've messed up the amount of food for the second city. It can't be a 4 turn settler factory, but possibly a 6 turn warrior/settler factory. Not bad either, though.

 

[eldar]

With Raging Barbs - you're going to want that Warrior/Settler factory badly. My test game was 1 shield short of it (I got Game instead of a second Cow), and a whole chunk of the island was off-limits to unprotected Settlers until I could get a couple of Archers out Barb-hunting.

Neil.

 

[solenoozerec]

Arrrr, Solenoozerec, admit it, you only want to settle by the coast because you're a guy who happens to like big salt lakes, not because you've done all the civ-calculations necessary to prove that it is indeed the ideal starting location!

Indeed . Besides there are salt lakes in civ. But I doubt that we have one on archipelago map.